Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler · 07-04-2021 9:29am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Alternatively, move the checks to the GB departing ports.

I imagine that that would be very problematic. An "infringement of sovereignty" - by allowing EU inspectors to operate in NI - can be tolerated on the grounds that it's NI, not GB; but to invite them to set up shop on true British soil ... that'd be a step too far.

The Johnson Administration has, as usual, dug itself into an unnecessary hole with its gung-ho-blame-the-EU attitude. Had they taken a more constructive approach to the New Relationship from Jan 1st, it would have been dead easy to tell the NI agitators: this is how its going to be - accept EU inspectors in Belfast and trade directly with GB; or we close the ports and you can send everything via Dublin. You have till 5pm to give us your answer.

BonnieSituation · 07-04-2021 9:48am

breatheme wrote: »

Been hearing a lot about the "British expats" forced to return home over here in Spain and the Spanish Twitterverse...

Like this article in the Mirror.

It looks like Spain may get a great Brexit benefit by keeping the undesirable British pensioners out and allowing in the ones they want.

Illegal British immigrant wrote:

Mrs Smyth said she hoped the UK and Spain would still negotiate special travel arrangements for non-resident Brits whose houses contribute to the tourism economy.

I mean, all that time 'living' in Spain she could have easily started the residency process.

Same for every single one of them.

Spain's just doing its legal duty.

I read the comments, amazing the different sorts that read the Mirror* Vs the more jingoistic rags, all of them calling the subjects of the article feckless etc for not being more aware of their requirements.

*Kevin Maguire of the Mirror, sometimes does the paper review on Sky News and he has a "Still hate Thatcher" mug prominently in view in the background of his sitting room.

Nody · 07-04-2021 10:15am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I mean, all that time 'living' in Spain she could have easily started the residency process.

They bought their house in 2019 in Spain thinking "the politicians will sort things out". I mean seriously who in 2019 thought there would be an amicable solution offering them to remain in Spain as long as they wanted?

dogbert27 · 07-04-2021 10:17am

Another affect of Brexit: (right click and translate)

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11872283

The Au Pair system looks to be ending unless people are prepared to pay them €23,500 a year to obtain a working visa where previously they paid them €5,785 a year.

The cost of a British child minder is over €2000 a month which people can't afford and families will now be making a decision on a parent dropping out of the work force.

dogbert27 · 07-04-2021 10:18am

Nody wrote: »

They bought their house in 2019 in Spain thinking "the politicians will sort things out". I mean seriously who in 2019 thought there would be an amicable solution offering them to remain in Spain as long as they wanted?

It just shows again the lack of understanding on what was actually being voted for with regard to leaving the EU.

ancapailldorcha · 07-04-2021 10:20am

Nody wrote: »

They bought their house in 2019 in Spain thinking "the politicians will sort things out". I mean seriously who in 2019 thought there would be an amicable solution offering them to remain in Spain as long as they wanted?

I'm going to disagree slightly. There seems to have been an "I only thought the terrible things would happen to other people so that's fine" mentality to much of the Brexit-voting cohort. Now that SS Brexit has hit the reality iceberg, the attitude seems to be that other people, ie the government and the EU/EU member state in question should fix their problems instead of their having to adapt to the reality that they voted for while allegedly being fully informed in advance.

ancapailldorcha · 07-04-2021 10:44am

Mod: Please don't just paste tweets and post insults here. Post and response removed.

schmoo2k · 07-04-2021 11:52am

dogbert27 wrote: »

It just shows again the lack of understanding on what was actually being voted for with regard to leaving the EU.

To be fair the May deal was on the table in 2019 and that would have allowed free movement?

CelticRambler · 07-04-2021 12:56pm

dogbert27 wrote: »

It just shows again the lack of understanding on what was actually being voted for with regard to leaving the EU.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

They bought their house in 2019 in Spain thinking "the politicians will sort things out". I mean seriously who in 2019 thought there would be an amicable solution offering them to remain in Spain as long as they wanted?

I'm going to disagree slightly. There seems to have been an "I only thought the terrible things would happen to other people so that's fine" mentality to much of the Brexit-voting cohort. Now that SS Brexit has hit the reality iceberg, the attitude seems to be that other people, ie the government and the EU/EU member state in question should fix their problems instead of their having to adapt to the reality that they voted for while allegedly being fully informed in advance.

I'd argue that it's a combination of all three. The Leave campaign said nothing would be any different (except in respect of the bad stuff, like immigrants and unfair Brussels red tape), and the Remainer didn't do anywhere near enough to counter the cake-and-eat-it claims - so voters who were "hard of thinking" could be somewhat excused for believing the best-case scenario. After the vote came the long, drawn-out phase of political bickering and the-will-we-won't-we-vote-again-will-of-the-people debate, during which nothing changed for the UK. After that again came the transition phase, during which ... nothing changed for the UK.

By this stage, we were four years into the post-referendum period, and unless you were seriously invested in the political process, it would have been very easy to ignore the hints of potential changes coming soon, because one's personal experience would have reinforced the notion that nothing had changed, exactly like the Leavers foretold.

And then we had that election, and getting Brexit done, and the UK was out, and still nothing changed ... ... ... until Johnson signed a not-so-oven ready deal and all hell broke loose. Exactly as the Remainers foretold.

These people were, in effect, little more than cannon fodder for Cameron's war against Farage, subsequently conscripted into the Tories' war on Corbyn. Like their ancestors who were herded off to be butchered in the Somme and other miserable places, they were never encouraged (or inclined) to think beyond the propaganda. It's not entirely their fault that they're getting someone else's version of Brexit.

The unfortunate side of this is that they don't appear to have learnt any lessons over the last five years, and are just as easy to manipulate/indoctrinate as ever before.

Strazdas · 07-04-2021 1:13pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm going to disagree slightly. There seems to have been an "I only thought the terrible things would happen to other people so that's fine" mentality to much of the Brexit-voting cohort. Now that SS Brexit has hit the reality iceberg, the attitude seems to be that other people, ie the government and the EU/EU member state in question should fix their problems instead of their having to adapt to the reality that they voted for while allegedly being fully informed in advance.

Though it might be added that they actively wanted negative things to happen to other people. They knew for example it would screw over all EU citizens living in the UK or those who wanted to move there.

Leroy42 · 07-04-2021 1:31pm

And that is why it is hard to have any sympathy.

Even if one was taken in by the lies of Brexit, that only the bad things were going to change and everything good would stay the same, by its very nature Brexit looked to move those 'bad' things onto other people.

They don't want foreigners coming to the UK to live, only to work. They don't want to abide by anyone else rules, and so by extension, everyone should abide by theirs/

Lemming · 07-04-2021 1:39pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

These people were, in effect, little more than cannon fodder for Cameron's war against Farage, subsequently conscripted into the Tories' war on Corbyn. Like their ancestors who were herded off to be butchered in the Somme and other miserable places, they were never encouraged (or inclined) to think beyond the propaganda. It's not entirely their fault that they're getting someone else's version of Brexit.

I agree with the rest of your post save for the bold highlighted sentence. It is entirely their fault. It was their individual vote and ultimately their abdication of responsibility to educate themselves on it. They can blame nobody but themselves for how they voted. Near half of those that actually voted spotted the used-car salesman nonsense of the Leave campaign, so why go easy on those that did not? That's not to suggest being cruel, simply not tolerating the self pity & bleating about how the EU/World/Universe/[Insert as appropriate] is being a big meanie pants to them.

Leroy42 wrote: »

They don't want foreigners coming to the UK to live, only to work.

Even that is debatable. I've heard more than a few interviewees (or others within earshot alas .. ) spouting off about schroedingers foreigners - simultaneously stealing jobs & leaching off the state - pricing locals out of jobs by working - allegedly - below minimum wage. The one that sticks with me for ticking several boxes all at once in the "how many times can you grab the wrong end of only one stick" stakes is the guy bemoaning how his son and friends all had to go away to university because there were no dead-end jobs available locally since all the foreigners were stealing the jobs by working below minimum wage to undercut the locals.

Strazdas · 07-04-2021 1:47pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that is why it is hard to have any sympathy.

Even if one was taken in by the lies of Brexit, that only the bad things were going to change and everything good would stay the same, by its very nature Brexit looked to move those 'bad' things onto other people.

They don't want foreigners coming to the UK to live, only to work. They don't want to abide by anyone else rules, and so by extension, everyone should abide by theirs/

Like all right wing ideologies with a nationalistic bent, it was always about screwing over other people. I see it as something negative and deeply cynical, it was never about creating a 'Global Britain', that was a meaningless catchphrase.

Sam Russell · 07-04-2021 1:52pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Like all right wing ideologies with a nationalistic bent, it was always about screwing over other people. I see it as something negative and deeply cynical, it was never about creating a 'Global Britain', that was a meaningless catchphrase.

Unless it was to echo 'the sun never sets on the British Empire and their ambition.

ancapailldorcha · 07-04-2021 1:56pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

These people were, in effect, little more than cannon fodder for Cameron's war against Farage, subsequently conscripted into the Tories' war on Corbyn. Like their ancestors who were herded off to be butchered in the Somme and other miserable places, they were never encouraged (or inclined) to think beyond the propaganda. It's not entirely their fault that they're getting someone else's version of Brexit.

The unfortunate side of this is that they don't appear to have learnt any lessons over the last five years, and are just as easy to manipulate/indoctrinate as ever before.

As flawed as the remain campaign was, and it was a Tory campaign let's not forget, I think it says a lot about someone that they're willing to strip away the framework that grants them certain rights and then be genuinely surprised when said rights have been removed.

I've seen videos of Brits in Spain either justifying their leave vote with the usual maxims or by saying that nothing will change. I get to live here because of the Common Travel Area. If I posted here saying that I'd voted to leave the CTA in a hypothetical referendum, I would expect no sympathy and rightly so.

It shouldn't be possible for the minds of people from such a wealthy nation to be so thoroughly and easily warped such that they can't even think critically any more.

Strazdas wrote: »

Though it might be added that they actively wanted negative things to happen to other people. They knew for example it would screw over all EU citizens living in the UK or those who wanted to move there.

Absolutely. The cruelty is the point. If young students, musicians, actors and the like now struggle to make an income since for many the EU is now prohibitively expensive then all the better.

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that is why it is hard to have any sympathy.

Even if one was taken in by the lies of Brexit, that only the bad things were going to change and everything good would stay the same, by its very nature Brexit looked to move those 'bad' things onto other people.

They don't want foreigners coming to the UK to live, only to work. They don't want to abide by anyone else rules, and so by extension, everyone should abide by theirs/

I'm delighted, frankly. The only way discourse here will progress is when people see tangible negative consequences in their lives. They need to learn that they ultimately aren't any more special that other Europeans and this is the first step.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-04-2021 2:03pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Though it might be added that they actively wanted negative things to happen to other people. They knew for example it would screw over all EU citizens living in the UK or those who wanted to move there.

A significant number , rising with age, would screw over the whole country , their family and even themselves :eek:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists

Fully 61% of Leave voters say that they think that “significant damage to the British economy to be a price worth paying for bringing Britain out of the European Union”.
...
Asked whether the loss of their own job or that of a family member would be a price worth paying for bringing Britain out of the EU, 39% of Leave voters still believe that it would

Data https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/6z56phuq56/InternalResults_170421_BrexitExtremism_W.pdf

Leroy42 · 07-04-2021 2:06pm

But wil they learn? Take the violence in NI for example.

Johnson should be, if he was even the slightest bit interested in reality, out condemning the violence and making it clear that the NIP was agreed by the HoC, voted on in the recent GE and it is not going anywhere.

The same is true for fishing, travel, musicians, pets etc etc. These are no teething problems, they are consequences, and people in the UK need to own up to their reality and the part they all played and get on with it.

That there is not going to be 'bending or rules' or looking for special treatment, because the UK don't want that and don't expect to give it to others.

That is the only way any of is is going to resolve itself. Brexit will thus, in time, prove to be a mistake or a great move. But they need to own it and accept it and move on.

Strazdas · 07-04-2021 2:20pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A significant number , rising with age, would screw over the whole country , their family and even themselves :eek:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists

Data https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/6z56phuq56/InternalResults_170421_BrexitExtremism_W.pdf

If you view it purely as a negative and cynical ideology, then this makes perfect sense. It's all about settling scores, 'getting even', teaching the others a lesson ; negative to its absolute core (the others being foreigners, immigrants, liberals, ethnic minorites....anyone who gets in the way basically).

dogbert27 · 07-04-2021 3:22pm

Britishvolt is a central part of Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s eco plans planning to go public in the US in another blow to the City of London

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-9428233/Blow-City-Electric-car-battery-maker-Britishvolt-eyes-float.html

In Wall Street they can use a Spac deal that would skip hurdles in a traditional float.

Igotadose · 07-04-2021 4:13pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

But wil they learn? Take the violence in NI for example.

Johnson should be, if he was even the slightest bit interested in reality, out condemning the violence and making it clear that the NIP was agreed by the HoC, voted on in the recent GE and it is not going anywhere.

The same is true for fishing, travel, musicians, pets etc etc. These are no teething problems, they are consequences, and people in the UK need to own up to their reality and the part they all played and get on with it.

That there is not going to be 'bending or rules' or looking for special treatment, because the UK don't want that and don't expect to give it to others.

That is the only way any of is is going to resolve itself. Brexit will thus, in time, prove to be a mistake or a great move. But they need to own it and accept it and move on.

Expecting character from Bojo is a fools game. He has never evinced any. Distract, misdirect, lie, those are his tools of the trade.

Lest we forget, it's HMG who are signatories to the GFA. How can he not be condeming the statements from the DUP and the unionist headbangers who now claim not to support it? No character makes avoiding difficult things easier.

Larbre34 · 07-04-2021 4:15pm

The UKs green industrial revolution eh?

Aren't they already so far behind the 8 ball on that, that revolution is hardly going to be a tag that applies. More like the World passing them by for the last 25 years and rushing to catch up than revolutionary.

07-04-2021 4:25pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The UKs green industrial revolution eh?

Aren't they already so far behind the 8 ball on that, that revolution is hardly going to be a tag that applies. More like the World passing them by for the last 25 years and rushing to catch up than revolutionary.

The UK's got a lot of wind, so not exactly behind the 8 ball at all!
They just need to up their game on storage.

https://www.statista.com/chart/22558/wind-and-solar-generation-in-selected-countries/

07-04-2021 4:36pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The UKs green industrial revolution eh?

Aren't they already so far behind the 8 ball on that, that revolution is hardly going to be a tag that applies. More like the World passing them by for the last 25 years and rushing to catch up than revolutionary.

And yet https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/06/uk-electricity-system-has-greenest-day-ever-over-easter

60% over 24 hours generated from wind and solar. Quick Google suggests they're not very far behind us in renewables, their legacy nuclear plays a part in that, along with massive urban areas not exactly suitable for large-scale wind.

Larbre34 · 07-04-2021 5:13pm

The Brits aren't talking about their use of renewables, they are talking about a "green industrial revolution" in terms of being at the cutting edge of innovation to lead the world in renewables tech and energy neutral design.

My point about being behind the 8 ball, is that they have a long way to go to catch up with the guys who are already leading on this stuff, i.e, the EU, US and ASEAN. Any eejits can decide to go renewable, very few have the money, talent and focus to lead on the tech.

dogbert27 · 07-04-2021 5:18pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Brits aren't talking about their use of renewables, they are talking about a "green industrial revolution" in terms of being at the cutting edge of innovation to lead the world in renewables tech and energy neutral design.

My point about being behind the 8 ball, is that they have a long way to go to catch up with the guys who are already leading on this stuff, i.e, the EU, US and ASEAN. Any eejits can decide to go renewable, very few have the money, talent and focus to lead on the tech.

In the article I linked BritishVolt stated that they would need government funding also to make it work yet they have no customers.

Sounds more like another company that will get millions from the government with no return.

Compared to Northvolt in Sweden who has a 14 billion order from VW

https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/15/swedish-battery-manufacturer-northvolt-receives-a-14-billion-order-from-vw/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACPUdhlEDjxHIoGIUEV_iKIpYM_oyFZxGlhYGxvmRsf9gVASuHQXkFJZAxW-DuGoF47sL8iATKfwth8ImxUyrjBMbtJQ2gq0Rfv5UkLBd64N0pSZN2cd1Oq9HO0cdAuN8vC4HoPOF_TsFjQgOjlRA0yq5WSrOmoHftfphE3euPom

NeuralNetwork · 07-04-2021 5:21pm

They do like a good social media friendly phrase, particularly one that echoes past glories and nostalgia.

“The Green Industrial Revolution”. It’s all very well but if it’s all branding and no substance, it’ll just be more “Levelling up” and “The Northern Power House” and a collection of other meaningless brands.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-04-2021 5:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/06/uk-electricity-system-has-greenest-day-ever-over-easter

60% over 24 hours generated from wind and solar. Quick Google suggests they're not very far behind us in renewables, their legacy nuclear plays a part in that, along with massive urban areas not exactly suitable for large-scale wind.

Nuclear provided 16% during a period of low demand. And most of those plants are due to shut down in the next few years. And the new nukes being built are highly dependent on Chinese money. But that's a problem for after the next election.

vs.

Renewables met 97% of Scotland's electricity demand in 2020 which helps the UK average and means an independent Scotland should have green electricity.

In fairness England/Wales are good for off-shore wind , we've got to do a lot of catch up off the east coast.

hotmail.com · 07-04-2021 6:04pm

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

They do like a good social media friendly phrase, particularly one that echoes past glories and nostalgia.

“The Green Industrial Revolution”. It’s all very well but if it’s all branding and no substance, it’ll just be more “Levelling up” and “The Northern Power House” and a collection of other meaningless brands.

Britain is proud of their industrial past. They were the first to industrialise. Why do Irish people have a problem with this? So what...

NeuralNetwork · 07-04-2021 6:46pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Britain is proud of their industrial past. They were the first to industrialise. Why do Irish people have a problem with this? So what...

I don’t have a problem with any of that and I don’t appreciate your implication.

What I have a problem with is a government that clings to nostalgic, nationalistic imagery to make promises that they never deliver upon. All they seem to care about is the communication strategy and press.

They talked up a major project to Level Up and the Northern Powerhouse, which hasn’t delivered anything other than column inches.

It’s just well branded but hollow promises.

There’s only so long they can remain stuck on the spin cycle before the bearings eventually fail and the drum will fall out.

yagan · 07-04-2021 7:35pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Britain is proud of their industrial past. They were the first to industrialise. Why do Irish people have a problem with this? So what...

We were starved because industrial Britain was food insecure.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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