Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

faceman · 07-04-2021 01:35PM

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Alast · 07-04-2021 01:41PM

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

Allinall · 07-04-2021 01:42PM

faceman wrote: »

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Sounds like rubbish to me.

ignorance of the law is no defence......, and all that.

Alast · 07-04-2021 01:43PM

Alast wrote: »

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

faceman · 07-04-2021 01:50PM

Allinall wrote: »

Sounds like rubbish to me.

ignorance of the law is no defence......, and all that.

Thats not their defence. That’s a different concept to absolute liability.

In some circumstances absolute liability is unconstitutional in Ireland.

Wallander · 07-04-2021 02:14PM

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

Also would likely collapse demand for Irish students going on Erasmus programmes next year, students will want to pull out. Same for those considering coming here.

expectationlost · 07-04-2021 02:18PM

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

whats it been like doing Erasmus this past year?

Jizique · 07-04-2021 02:20PM

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

It is nuts - 12 months later and we have just started thinking about this. Whether Harris likes it or not, Ireland is a small open economy that relies on its links to Europe to ensure the high number of foreign corporates have successfully set up here; if they keep this up, there will be a queue of senior managers looking to move their businesses back to mainland Europe to get away from the madness that is being inflicted on them and their families

07-04-2021 02:26PM

faceman wrote: »

You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law.

'Jesus was that the speed limit Guard? I'd no idea!'.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 02:28PM

Jizique wrote: »

It is nuts - 12 months later and we have just started thinking about this. Whether Harris likes it or not, Ireland is a small open economy that relies on its links to Europe to ensure the high number of foreign corporates have successfully set up here; if they keep this up, there will be a queue of senior managers looking to move their businesses back to mainland Europe to get away from the madness that is being inflicted on them and their families

It won't continue forever and it's not like it's not as bad or even better elsewhere.

Alast · 07-04-2021 02:32PM

expectationlost wrote: »

whats it been like doing Erasmus this past year?

I'm not a student so couldn't tell you

ninebeanrows · 07-04-2021 02:38PM

saabsaab wrote: »

It won't continue forever and it's not like it's not as bad or even better elsewhere.

How does one define if there is lots of variants of concern in one country or not? What is the level of variant of concern needed to have it listed?

What makes a variant worse than another variant? Has there been any evidence vaccines dont prevent severe illness or death in any variant?

It all seems extremely arbitrary and open to manipulation.

There are no clear metrics.

How can a country get removed from the list? The variant just isn't going to disappear from the acountry in the next 6 months.

ninebeanrows · 07-04-2021 02:41PM

I have no problem with them saying countries with say a figure of 500 per 100k 14 day rolling average must enter hotel quarantine and this list will be updated weekly.

The variant thing is just an absolutely impossibility to measure and opens the system to being manipulated by people who seek to go the zero covid route and ban travel to this country for the medium term.

JojoLoca · 07-04-2021 03:22PM

Alast wrote: »

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

So last week there was a strong opposition and concern over expanding MHQ with EU countries and now it sounds like they are all agreeing on it?

NSAman · 07-04-2021 05:20PM

So even if you are vaccinated, get a negative test result before coming home, they now want you to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel?

ninebeanrows · 07-04-2021 05:25PM

NSAman wrote: »

So even if you are vaccinated, get a negative test result before coming home, they now want you to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel?

I am hopeful the system will be more nuanced when it goes to cabinet next week....but you never know.

The bottom line is Donnelly and co want to appease the Zero Covid and close our borders populists...so it will be put across strongly but hopefully the details will be less restrictive...

I am thinking something like your resleased to home quarantine on day 5 if you have a negative test.

And a automatic expiry of the advice after a certain date,

these may be some of the middle grounds met.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 06:49PM

ninebeanrows wrote: »

How does one define if there is lots of variants of concern in one country or not? What is the level of variant of concern needed to have it listed?

What makes a variant worse than another variant? Has there been any evidence vaccines dont prevent severe illness or death in any variant?

It all seems extremely arbitrary and open to manipulation.

There are no clear metrics.

How can a country get removed from the list? The variant just isn't going to disappear from the acountry in the next 6 months.

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

caveat emptor · 07-04-2021 07:19PM

Yeah the latest one now is the Indian double mutant. Doubly worrying. Is India on the list. They should be.

https://twitter.com/ArisKatzourakis/status/1379501050747613190?s=20

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 07:26PM

A more deadly variant is most likely to arise in a country where there is high density, little control and large populations. You can work out the places where it will come from.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 08:22PM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

And variants not being picked up by PCR as well.

True see below

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breton-variant-causes-concern-as-it-may-not-be-easily-picked-up-in-tests-1.4528628

Kaisr Sose · 07-04-2021 08:35PM

faceman wrote: »

Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.

caveat emptor · 07-04-2021 08:39PM

faceman wrote: »

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Ignorance is no excuse of the law.

Otherwise everyone would win constitutional challenges and claim even more compo to fund their lifestyle.

07-04-2021 08:45PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.

Throw in manslaughter as well.

"Ignorance of the law is no defence" as the judge herself said.

It's not a requirement that you intended to actually commit a crime, just intended to commit the act that is a crime.

Anyway, their house of cards will all fall in open court

NSAman · 07-04-2021 08:45PM

MHQ or not I’m vaccinated and coming home in a few weeks!

hmmm · 07-04-2021 08:46PM

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes.

Given that the vaccines currently provide protection against all known variants, how do you come to the conclusion that there is a "strong chance" a new variant cause "havoc" with vaccination programmes?

NH2013 · 07-04-2021 08:53PM

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

But given that vaccines have shown to be effective against all known strains and variants, why would this be the case?

And if so, when do we re-open travel, never?

While I get limiting it now while we aren't vaccinated, hypothetically, if we were all vaccinated here but you were of the impression vaccines don't work on different variants, how long should we still keep the boarders closed for?

Until global eradication? (Which won't happen ever given countries like the Israel, USA and UK are now reopening as they're happy their health systems are protected)

The end game for this has to be health systems being sufficiently protected through immunisation, not elimination or the prevention of variants.

Kaisr Sose · 07-04-2021 08:57PM

hmmm wrote: »

Given that the vaccines currently provide protection against all known variants, how do you come to the conclusion that there is a "strong chance" a new variant cause "havoc" with vaccination programmes?

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

AZ may become less relevant over time due to the clotting issue but right now the SA variant effectiveness is commented on. Th SA variant is the main reason some countries are red listed, Austria in the EU, being a very good local case.

It's going to be a dynamic issue from now on. Virus mutates, vaccines reengineered to be more effective.

For now, nobody wants the SA variant to become dominant.

hmmm · 07-04-2021 09:00PM

NH2013 wrote: »

But given that vaccines have shown to be effective against all known strains and variants, why would this be the case?

And if so, when do we re-open travel, never?

If we're going to do this then I think there needs to be a strict time limit. 2 months, and it automatically expires.

Mandatory quarantine can't be used as an excuse to hide under our beds forever for fear of "variants", and it can't also be used as an excuse (by a small element) to keep foreigners out of Ireland.

Either way the impact on those who rely on travel, and our reputation, will be considerable, and despite what some people think this does matter. It will look ridiculous over the next few months as countries begin to open up and drop restrictions, while we're careering off script implementing some sort of last-minute zero-Covid approach.

Corholio · 07-04-2021 09:02PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

AZ may become less relevant over time due to the clotting issue but right now the SA variant effectiveness is commented on, and the main reason some countries are red listed. Austria being a very good local case.

It's going to be a dynamic issue from now on. Virus mutates, vaccines reengineered to be more effective. Nobody wants the SA variant to become dominant.

Has there been another study on the AZ effectiveness on the SA variant? Because the one that has been posted often here isn't anything close to confirming that it is much less effective.

hmmm · 07-04-2021 09:03PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

Small sample size, young people, it wasn't a very good study and needs a better one before we can draw any conclusions. Besides which the mRNA vaccines and J&J have shown they will protect against the South African variant.

Worries about future variants which "may" arise seems to be a tenuous argument for what would be a very significant step like MHQ for all visitors to Ireland. There are costs to doing this, and it's not as simple as saying that we should do it just because it will reduce risk.

Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

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