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Discussion on sexism

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Comments

  • #362
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    [/QUOTE]
    That was directed at me because I didn’t agree with you. You deemed my opinion as a woman to be not as worthy as yours. Who’s the sexist now?[/QUOTE]
    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    In fairness to anewme I think that quoted comment was directed at me, as I was the one who mentioned the lasagna poster chortling away at the reaction their post had garnered

    The comment about chortling was directed at the poster who referenced chortling as they referenced above.

    The reason he said chortling away, was that the particular post was so nasty, the majority of people felt it was trolling and people said no one could find it ok.

    There is nothing sexist about what I've posted in this post.

    It does not mention women at all.

    Stop claiming sexism is levied at you when its not.


  • #363
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    This to me is condescension and it the type of thing that I find INCREDIBLY annoying

    https://news.sky.com/story/rebecca-welch-first-woman-appointed-to-referee-efl-game-praised-by-managers-12267257

    What it should read is person hired to do job does it well. Her Gender shouldn't come into it.

    Anymore than I think Gender Quotas should apply. I hate the very idea of them. If the best person for the job is male or female or one of the take your pick cool new genders, then hire them. Don't hire them or appoint them just to satisfy a group of people who say you need to have a certain amount of each gender to have a balanced viewpoint and representation.


  • #364
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    @anewme

    You really can’t see that you are being sexist against the women who hold a different view to you, can you? As per the article pwurple quoted, you have insulted our intelligence by asking how are we to be educated. You’ve also clearly stated that all genders can be sexist against each other. I mentioned how you have made me feel as a woman but you still fob it off. A famous line written by George Orwell springs to mind but replace animals with women.
    anewme wrote: »
    No, it does the opposite. It highlights there is an issue with sexism together with a lack if acknowledgement.

    Why do you think people here are saying the post was not sexist ?

    A number of posters here did not believe it to be so. Is that ignorance or deliberate?

    If posters cannot see obvious sexist posts, that indicates there is a wider issue. This post and the pig posts demonstrate the very worst of boards.

    Yet there are defenders.

    How should they be educated?
    pwurple wrote: »
    Yes, the usual personal insults came out.

    For those asking for reference material on sexist language, here is one on sexist slurs.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-019-01095-z

    Gravel donkey, all the comments about porn being their income stream, being pissed on in Dubai for payment etc would pretty clearly fall into that.

    “These terms include those insulting someone’s appearance (e.g., “ugly”), intellect (e.g., “stupid”), sexual experience (e.g., “promiscuous”), mental stability (e.g., “crazy”), and age (“old”). Messages enforcing beauty norms tend to be particularly negative. In sum, hostile, sexist tweets are strategic in nature. They aim to promote traditional, cultural beliefs about femininity, such as beauty ideals, and they shame victims by accusing them of falling short of these standards.”
    anewme wrote: »
    The education is not required for the poster posting for the shock value (maybe or maybe they believe this)

    It's for the posters unable/unwilling to acknowledge that it is sexist and have more of an issue with people objecting to it than the poor content itself.
    anewme wrote: »
    No, you've people saying it was ok because of the people involved. Strawberry Milkshake for example condones all insults. They dont think its insulting. They are fine with it.

    And you've posters saying what if it's TRUE?

    Are they neanderthal too ?
    anewme wrote: »
    I'm surprised you are asking this. It would be well recognised.

    Of course women can be sexist and misogynistic towards other women and all genders

    As men can be sexist and misandristic against other men and all genders.

    I had a differing opinion to you on the “lasagne” post. I respect your right as a female to how you perceive it and I have never questioned your outlook on it. But it’s now time to acknowledge that you respect the rights of the other female perspectives on this thread too.


  • #365
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users Posts: 16,310 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I was quoted in that too, Strawberry Milkshake. I found the comment juvenile and are therefore deemed to be in need of education.

    The funny thing is none of us would have even remembered it had it not been used as a stick to beat us with.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php

    >>> Staying Alive <<<



  • #366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Leg End Reject wrote: »
    I was quoted in that too, Strawberry Milkshake. I found the comment juvenile and are therefore deemed to be in need of education.

    The funny thing is none of us would have even remembered it had it not been used as a stick to beat us with.

    Exactly.


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  • #367
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.


  • #368
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Things are grand.
    Mods and admins doing the best they can.
    Not possible to please everybody.
    Keep up the good work.
    /out.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • #369
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users Posts: 16,310 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I would suggest that a post that has been actioned or deleted should not be quoted after the action. It's in essence "Feeding the trolls" or allowing someone to continue to "Be a dick" even if they've left the discussion.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php

    >>> Staying Alive <<<



  • #370
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.


    And on that note, my feedback is to request that the mod/admin team DO NOT set up a set of rules/guidelines as to what constitutes one of the '-isms' in society.

    Locking the people who help run this site into a rigid structure like that will result in rules lawyering where some people are deliberately sailing very close to the line and not crossing it all the while saying "but i didn't break the rules so i'm fine" and therefore being able to argue that any sanctions applied against them are unfair, even when everyone else knows exactly what they are at.

    It will result in increased confusion, as exemplified earlier on where my use of They and Them was taken by one person to mean two specific posters, when everyone else could see it was the general use of they and them.


  • #371
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Leg End Reject wrote: »
    I would suggest that a post that has been actioned or deleted should not be quoted after the action. It's in essence "Feeding the trolls" or allowing someone to continue to "Be a dick" even if they've left the discussion.

    And certainly not multiple times in a feedback thread


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  • #372
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Noted and apologies, posted before I read your post.


  • #373
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Awesome thanks. :)


    So, any idea on when there will be a comment on what I’ve asked?


  • #374
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,120 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Admin:

    Fr Dougal, Dr Turk Turkleton and CtevenChowder please don't post in this thread again.

    If anyone else posts disingenuous digs or "hilarious" thanks whoring one liners I will be doing more than just deleting their posts the next time.


  • #375
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anewme wrote: »
    Theres different opinions and then there is abuse. This is one post I reported, which was subsequently deleted.

    F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

    Above post thanked by other posters who share that view.


    Loads of posts about tits, their looks, they should be minding their kids etc.

    These posts are not different opinions, they are misogynistic and sexist. Removing them is allowing it to look like people are imagining things.

    Many of the women who posted in The Ladies Lounge thread are not posting in the Dubai thread. I wonder is it for the reasons outlined in TLL thread and Ladies fashions thread?

    Yeah I think this policy of removing posts is wrong. It means offenders can often not realise their post was deleted and go on thinking its perfectly acceptable. It means those who give feedback then look stupid cause the evidence is gone.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #376
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I think the boards wide policy of moderators deleting posts without notification or indication is a terrible action for this whole forum.

    Posters who have had posts removed are not notified that their posts are removed (I've experienced this myself).
    Therefore I don't see the point, as the posters behaviour wont change...

    Also, posts which are replies to "fresh air" look off Topic and ridiculous.

    Who came up with this as an acceptable moderation action???

    It's obviously not a full thought through policy

    Yes completely agree. Its a way of hiding the problem and not addressing it straight up.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #377
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    Is that not directed at two people in particular not an entire group.

    It could be more constructive but does potray the ire of how people feel by what the two did.

    Criticism is not sexism but the wanting to be treated differently or preferentially because of your sex is.

    That isnt criticism. Its sick nasty mysogyny.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #378
    99nsr125
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭99nsr125


    Annasopra wrote: »
    That isnt criticism. Its sick nasty mysogyny.

    We've had this debate already and the overwhelming opinion is you're wrong


  • #379
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »

    Perhaps you are seeing sexism where there is none and conflating being challenged on a point as challenging a sex.

    Challenging someone of a different sex isn't sexism

    But not challenging them because they are a different sex IS, it is censorship and repression.

    Most relevant though this is an anonymous forum we don't know people's sex which allows debate to flow with logic and evidence primarily.

    Making comments about peoples appearance and genitals and comparing them to animals is sexism and mysogynistic

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #380
    99nsr125
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭99nsr125


    Annasopra wrote: »
    Making comments about peoples appearance and genitals and comparing them to animals is sexism and mysogynistic

    Perhaps you should seek information in the thread rather than repeating something that's already been refuted


  • #381
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should seek information in the thread rather than repeating something that's already been refuted

    Are you a moderator?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #382
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    We've had this debate already and the overwhelming opinion is you're wrong

    Has someone appointed you judge jury and executioner here, or are you just expressing some male privilege? :pac:


  • #383
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Annasopra wrote: »
    sexism and mysogynistic

    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).


  • #384
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).


    I think it's pretty clear that plenty of the language examples posted in this thread, and the one in the original post here are clearly misognystic and sexist. Maybe you missed anewme's posts? :D

    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?


    Or is that yet to come?


    Yes, I'll hold.


  • #385
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    No need to hold.
    pwurple wrote: »
    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?
    No. I do not moderate this forum, and I am not a site administrator. You can see a list of the forums I moderate under my name. Like you, I am treated as regular poster here, and in every other forum where I am not a moderator.


  • #386
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).

    The request here is in respect of the issues raised in the thread about the two women going to Dubai (and the language used), and in addition the concerns raised in the ladies Lounge thread giving the womens fashions thread as an example. It is not in respect of any one post or thread, though clear examples have been given.

    There are numerous other threads, why do women, why are women, why do fat women, why do old women...with the punchline being that all these threads are used to bash women, the Ladies fashions thread being a case in point, it was not about fashions but comments on genetalia.


  • #387
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    pwurple wrote: »
    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?


    Or is that yet to come?


    Yes, I'll hold.

    Being brutally honest here for a second, it's exactly condescension like this that makes me go 'f*ck it, why do I bother' when it comes to the feedback forum. You expect the topic to be treated by respondents with the gravitas it deserves, yet you feel that your own tone of engagement should get whatever latitude you see fit. It doesn't work that way.

    For purely pragmatic reasons, my ability to engage with the site in the past six or seven days has been limited to being sporadic, and the topic deserves a more lengthy response than I have been able to provide in that time.

    I don't speak for the site as a whole, but as the admin who has engaged with this thread from the get-go, I will be responding to your question as it certainly deserves a response - in my own time and when it's practical for me to do so. But please note, you have asked the question, and it will be answered. However should you try to browbeat the point again before that time, I will ask you not to post in the thread again.


  • #388
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).

    I understand what you are saying. Yes these words were used a lot in this thread. This is feedback though surely the point is to listen to the feedback being raised. Here when the initial feedback was raised many came into dismiss it and deny it completely. And so those words got thrown around frequently because the response was in itself linked to the overall points being raised. Of course when the issues are denied and dismissed so vehemently there will be a counter reaction to restate them again and again. But again this continuous denial and dismissal actually wants to create the polarisation and to undermine the original feedback by making those who bought it up react. Its an attempt to undermine by those who dont like the feedback.

    Perhaps the admins and staff could step back and look at this in the whole in the context of A: the previous ladies lounge discussion on sexism and frustration expressed here that it seemed to achieve nothing B: attempts to use the feedback thread against posters raising concerns, C: this discussion and how it became polarised and posters didnt always speak with each other or consider one anothers points.


    I think maybe in this case it would indicate to me that there should be a look at the feedback forum in terms of moderation. It seems to have only 2 moderators and perhaps it needs one or two more. I think if this thread had been guided a bit more by a moderator in terms of moderation only and not responding to the feedback it could potentially have been less polarised.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #389
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Annasopra wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying. Yes these words were used a lot in this thread. This is feedback though surely the point is to listen to the feedback being raised. Here when the initial feedback was raised many came into dismiss it and deny it completely. And so those words got thrown around frequently because the response was in itself linked to the overall points being raised. Of course when the issues are denied and dismissed so vehemently there will be a counter reaction to restate them again and again. But again this continuous denial and dismissal actually wants to create the polarisation and to undermine the original feedback by making those who bought it up react. Its an attempt to undermine by those who dont like the feedback.

    On the point, it would seem that most of those offering feedback here go against the grain of what the OP has brought up, as in they are more than happy with how the mod team deal have dealt with the issues raised. So by your own admission, surely we listen to that feedback?


  • #390
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Omackeral wrote: »
    On the point, it would seem that most of those offering feedback here go against the grain of what the OP has brought up, as in they are more than happy with how the mod team deal have dealt with the issues raised. So by your own admission, surely we listen to that feedback?

    The thread in the Ladies Lounge said the exact opposite.

    The posters there also said they avoid other areas of the site and people have left because of it, so their views are not taken into account. Their views are on the Ladies Lounge thread. The fact they did not post here as they would be rounded on is part of the feedback. That thread needs to be factored in here as part of the feedback.

    It should be noted that some of the posters giving feedback here have themselves been carded for sexist and misogynistic posts - therefore they will not want any changes.

    Calling for a greater transparency in the interests of all has to be a positive step.


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  • #391
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Acting as if all posters agree on what in each context constitutes actionable sexism or misogyny is imo facetious.

    And it's likewise presumptious to act as if, in the absence of agreement, the bar is whatever you personally- or the consensus of a specific thread in the ladies lounge- decide it is

    It doesn't seem to me that in this thread we are seeing feedback that mods can usefully use, because its lobbying for punishment on disagreeing with three posters who appear to be in quite a small opinion group


This discussion has been closed.
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