Discussion on sexism

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 4:06pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Yep, I get that. Even the description of “Kind Hearts and Coronets” on the Sky Movies menu (where it’s regarded as an Essential Classic) states “THIS FILM HAS OUTDATED ATTITUDES, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL DEPICTIONS WHICH MAY CAUSE OFFENCE TODAY”

What’s tolerable today may not be tolerable tomorrow.
When I was growing up damn near every black dog was called Blackie. They wouldn’t be tolerated today.

I get that society causes changes in what’s acceptable and what’s not, and broadly those changes are for the better.

You remember the pub in Leixlip called Darkie Moore's?

As for who and when do you please, well I suppose that’s why there’s a team of mods per forum. The team agrees a consensus, and that’d be how contentious issues would be handled.

Yeah and that is what happens but again you cannot please everybody and hence these kinds of threads.

Beasty · 05-04-2021 4:18pm

anewme wrote: »

No, the exact same applies to both men and women both ways and gay/lesbian/trans. Not unique to any gender.

The word misandry would not come to me at the time so I used bias, that's all.

I'm surprised you asked that question in the first place.

I asked the question due to your own post using different terms when referring to men as opposed to women. This is the second time you have challenged me when responding to posts of your own. I am trying to establish what you consider as "sexist". Many of these issues, in my experience, are judgemental. We are into shades of grey. Your view that something is sexist may differ from someone else's view. You may see it all as black and white. I don't. I usually try and look at intent rather than precise words used (hence my prior reference to "baps" and "diddies". In one case I am pretty sure it was a woman using the term).

Do you want us to outlaw a word when used by man but not when used by a woman using this as an example (and I appreciate it was not you, from recollection, who made those reports). Of course even then we would be making judgements on the gender of the poster.

Hence I come back to my approach of trying to look at intent. Those words were not used maliciously. They were used in connection with two individuals who had caused uproar with their own behaviour. Ignoring the fact it is now before the courts, what are you views on the topic itself? Do you think it was appropriate to discuss something that had been reported in the mainstream press and had caused such uproar?

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 4:23pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You remember the pub in Leixlip called Darkie Moore's?

Yeah and that is what happens but again you cannot please everybody and hence these kinds of threads.

Anyone who took Darkie Moore’s to be equal to some sort of racial slander was reaching to say the least. I never heard any of the locals thinking that.

Quantum Erasure · 05-04-2021 4:43pm

anewme wrote: »

Do you mind racism? If yes, then question answered but if not, why but?

This coddled into fragility argument is nonsense.

You don’t mind sexism, but people who do must be fragile?

Does that not in fact make you more fragile?

No it doesn't, no

Beasty · 05-04-2021 6:41pm

isha

Please note you must be on the site a minimum of 3 months and have 100 posts on the site before you can post in the Feedback forum

anewme · 05-04-2021 7:23pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yep. Me too. I am an adult and the same as real life I am not going to agree with everything I hear. I just roll my eyes and move on.
I hate to say this but people have a right to have sexist views I don't agree with. They are wrong but I am not sure that people should be silenced.

I'll ask you the same question as Isha, and it's a question as in food for thought as opposed me expecting you to answer- do you believe people have a right to racist views and to Express them.

jam_mac_jam · 05-04-2021 7:35pm

anewme wrote: »

I'll ask you the same question as Isha, and it's a question as in food for thought as opposed me expecting you to answer- do you believe people have a right to racist views and to Express them.

I think people's rights to their views and thoughts as fundamental to democracy no matter how abhorrent I may find those views.

Expressing them, depends on how. If it's directed at a person then no because that's harassment. If it's in a publication no because they have editorial standards.

Otherwise yes, say whatever you want. Shine a light on it and challenge it. Not force it underground.

anewme · 05-04-2021 7:37pm

Beasty wrote: »

I asked the question due to your own post using different terms when referring to men as opposed to women. This is the second time you have challenged me when responding to posts of your own. I am trying to establish what you consider as "sexist". Many of these issues, in my experience, are judgemental. We are into shades of grey. Your view that something is sexist may differ from someone else's view. You may see it all as black and white. I don't. I usually try and look at intent rather than precise words used (hence my prior reference to "baps" and "diddies". In one case I am pretty sure it was a woman using the term).

Do you want us to outlaw a word when used by man but not when used by a woman using this as an example (and I appreciate it was not you, from recollection, who made those reports). Of course even then we would be making judgements on the gender of the poster.

Hence I come back to my approach of trying to look at intent. Those words were not used maliciously. They were used in connection with two individuals who had caused uproar with their own behaviour. Ignoring the fact it is now before the courts, what are you views on the topic itself? Do you think it was appropriate to discuss something that had been reported in the mainstream press and had caused such uproar?

I've said more than once here that I have no time for the behaviour of those women.

There is a big difference between expressing annoyance and saying their kids should be taken away and adopted abroad or other derogatory language used. That's not within the remit of Boards users to dish out personal abuse.

Another poster referred to some posts as defamatory, which indeed they were making all types of allegations.

Are you posting here in your Mod capacity or personal capacity Beasty?

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 8:05pm

anewme wrote: »

I'll ask you the same question as Isha, and it's a question as in food for thought as opposed me expecting you to answer- do you believe people have a right to racist views and to Express them.

Ive asked some variant of this question or similar to you directly several times, without response.

Do you believe people have the right to decide differently to you what may be considered racist or sexist?

That's often more cogent in the liminal spaces of these discussions, seeing as the fairly obvious stuff is easily dealt with

banie01 · 05-04-2021 8:22pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Otherwise yes, say whatever you want. Shine a light on it and challenge it. Not force it underground.

This, 100 times this.
We are at a stage where highlighting, debating and forcing people to defend their post seems too hard.
It's far easier to cry "ism" and force mod action.

This forces sometimes repugnant views and posters to seek other forums.
Where they ironically enough coalesce into "safe spaces".

Debate, posts and commentary particularly in a forum dedicated to current affairs is subject to emotive and even sometimes deliberately antagonistic.
It's not about "big boys and girls" it's about refutation and exposing views we oppose as incorrect or mistaken.

The current standard of don't be a dick, allows for a robust standard of debate with a degree of flexibility by mods.
Classifying and laying out levels and type of discrimination as a means of giving certainty?
Is IMO stupid and regressive.
Those who want such a "charter" stifle debate and opinion in the name of community and inclusivity.
Except as I mentioned above it drives the opposing posters off the site, and reinforces their exclusion.
Is that any better than allowing the current approach?
It saves the possiblity of immediate offence, but it only shifts the problem elsewhere.

This is Boards site, it's play by their rules or lose posting privileges.
It isn't a free speech site, but it has over the years made a good run at allowing a degree of balance in debate.

Seeking to nix that in the manner certain posters have sought on this thread?
Is almost as abhorrent an act as the post that originally kicked this thread

Beasty · 05-04-2021 8:34pm

anewme wrote: »

I've said more than once here that I have no time for the behaviour of those women.

There is a big difference between expressing annoyance and saying their kids should be taken away and adopted abroad or other derogatory language used. That's not within the remit of Boards users to dish out personal abuse.

Another poster referred to some posts as defamatory, which indeed they were making all types of allegations.

Are you posting here in your Mod capacity or personal capacity Beasty?

I am posting as a moderator involved in the moderation of the thread in question. I am also a site Administrator, but we have not had discussions about this thread at this stage

Any alleged defamatory content is clearly not visible as the thread is deleted

anewme · 05-04-2021 9:02pm

banie01 wrote: »

Is almost as abhorrent an act as the post that originally kicked this thread[/QUOTE

You are not being straight here.

There was not one post that kicked off this thread.

This thread is based on ongoing concerns.

The very long thread (not post) in respect of the women travelling to Dubai and not wanting to quarantine. The mod has confirmed that there were a large number of actions required in respect of that thread, not one post.

The previous thread in the Ladies Lounge where numerous people said they feel unwelcome and afraid to post on boards in certain forums and some have left including a long standing respected moderator.as they feel there are issues not being tackled and people who raise concerns are rounded on. The Ladies fashions thread being an example.

Constantly, there are threads, why are women, why are fat women, why are old women.....usually followed by some gross generalisation and women bashing.

Posters were told there were actions underway to address the concerns raised and poster is requesting the update.
They is their right and should be respected.

There was not one post that kicked off this thread, so in the interest of transparency, please do not try to misrepresent the truth.

anewme · 05-04-2021 9:13pm

Beasty wrote: »

I am posting as a moderator involved in the moderation of the thread in question. I am also a site Administrator, but we have not had discussions about this thread at this stage

Any alleged defamatory content is clearly not visible as the thread is deleted

No, I'm aware it's gone, was there long enough though. Noted it was a Bank Holiday weekend, so not a criticism.

Ok, so if these questions are not meant for you, please let me know.

I will also point out here that this feedback thread also covers the request for update from the previous Ladies Lounge thread. I asked Tokyo could it continue and it was deemed ok.

As a next step, who is responsible for this feedback thread, ie where does it go for discussion.

In relation to people reporting posts, do Moderators give out information as to who reported posts or is it anonymous? What is the policy in respect of reporting posts?

banie01 · 05-04-2021 9:18pm

anewme wrote: »

banie01 wrote: »

Is almost as abhorrent an act as the post that originally kicked this thread

You are not being straight here.

There was not one post that kicked off this thread.

This thread is based on ongoing concerns.

The very long thread (not post) in respect of the women travelling to Dubai and not wanting to quarantine. The mod has confirmed that there were a large number of actions required in respect of that thread, not one post.

The previous thread in the Ladies Lounge where numerous people said they feel unwelcome and afraid to post on boards in certain forums and some have left including a long standing respected moderator.as they feel there are issues not being tackled and people who raise concerns are rounded on. The Ladies fashions thread being an example.

Constantly, there are threads, why are women, what are fat women, why are old women.....usually followed by some gross generalisation and winen bashing.

Posters were told there were actions underway to address the concerns raised and poster is requesting the update.
They is their right and should be respected.

There was not one post that kicked off this thread, so in the interest of transparency, please do not try to misrepresent the truth.

So this isn't a thread regarding your discontent with the gravel donkey post?
Despite your multiple repeats of it and your patently false claims that the post was defended on this thread?

This feedback thread is for the Dubai 2 thread, the other issues raised may well contribute to how you feel about the current situation aswell your aim to impose guidelines and standards.
My points above however?
Still stand regardless of the basis of your ire.

You are trying to raise the spectre of thought policing posters and stifling robust exchange.
It's a stance I find an anathema tbh.
Debate and the robust defence of ideas and opinions are vital to education.
It's quite often the key to how people learn best.
Not in coddled safe spaces, but in dynamic and often challenging environments that force one to both defend their own stances aswell as reassess their own beliefs in the face of challenge and new information.

There is no education without challenge, without challenge and debate it becomes a drone assembly line with the end product being groupthink and eventual implosion, be it of work group, social group or political party.

Beasty · 05-04-2021 9:27pm

anewme wrote: »

In relation to people reporting posts, do Moderators give out information as to who reported posts or is it anonymous? What is the policy in respect of reporting posts?

The thread was deleted as it is now a matter before the courts

On this specific point we never disclose who reported posts unless the poster in question has already done so in a public forum

Your other points will be addressed but not all this evening. We have had 2 or 3 active Admins over the weekend one based in a different time zone. We have all been quite active moderating discussions particularly in the Coronavirus forum which is incredibly busy

One of the Office staff should be available during the week and we may get an opportunity to discuss some of the wider issues being raised

anewme · 05-04-2021 9:36pm

banie01 wrote: »

So this isn't a thread regarding your discontent with the gravel donkey post?
Despite your multiple repeats of it and your patently false claims that the post was defended on this thread?

You know right well that this thread is not based on that post.

I've explained very clearly and in detail ahove what it is about and the posts will verify that. As well as verify that some posters thought it was ok.

But you've ignored the facts, including where I clearly asked Tokyo if the ladies lounge thread was ok to talk about.

There is not much point in debating with someone who is not honest.

I'm going to go a bit further here now as I believe your posts are dishonest and despite me asking you to do do, have refused to correct the facts and are trying to belittle the person who asked for the feedback.

The point of feedback is for Mods/Admin, not for other posters to put posters on trial.

banie01 · 05-04-2021 9:39pm

anewme wrote: »

You know right well that this thread is not based on that post.

I've explained very clearly and in detail ahove what it is about and the posts will verify that. As well as verify that some posters thought it was ok.

But you've ignored the facts, including where I clearly asked Tokyo if the ladies lounge thread was ok to talk about.

There is not much point in debating with someone who is not honest.

I'm going to go a bit further here now as I believe your posts are dishonest and despite me asking you to do do, have refused to correct the facts and are trying to belittle the person who asked for the feedback.

The point of feedback is for Mods/Admin, not for other posters to put posters on trial.

It's quite rich of you to accuse anyone of dishonesty given your own claims on this thread.
You labelled multiple posters as being supportive of that post.
Where is your apology to them?

I find it quite interesting however that you seem intent on claiming victimhood.
There is no dishonesty in any of my posts, but you feel free to run riot with that claim.
I am quite happy to amend the word "post" to "thread" but this particular thread was kicked off by the Dubai 2 thread, it's linked in the OP.
I've already acknowledged your position regarding the other threads.

Leg End Reject · 05-04-2021 9:47pm

So basically we all need to be "educated" to change our opinions to suit a minority of posters.

Perhaps the majority aren't wrong?

Sweetemotion · 05-04-2021 9:56pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

So basically we all need to be "educated" to change our opinions to suit a minority of posters.

Perhaps the majority aren't wrong?

Trolls feed off the forever offended, and the forever offended, feed off the trolls. Both are better off being ignored.

CtevenSrowder · 05-04-2021 10:00pm

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Trolls feed off the forever offended, and the forever offended, feed off the trolls. Both are better off being ignored.

You can't ignore the forever offended when they push and push and push to have robust debate completely sanitized to their liking though.

Leg End Reject · 05-04-2021 10:06pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You can't ignore the forever offended when they push and push and push to have robust debate completely sanitized to their liking though.

We've also been accused of supporting the now famous post because we didn't find it misogynistic or sexist. So, clearly there are only 2 options - agree with anewme or you're supporting it.

Accusations of dishonesty and misreprenting posts too.

Sweetemotion · 05-04-2021 10:16pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

You can't ignore the forever offended when they push and push and push to have robust debate completely sanitized to their liking though.

You can ignore them and if more people did, they can push and push and push all they like.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 10:20pm

Sweetemotion wrote: »

You can ignore them and if more people did, they can push and push and push all they like.

No. Why ignore them when you can engage them in debate and counter argument. If everyone was ignoring anewme and pwurple then this thread would be them telling the mods and admins about their issues with the Dubai 2 thread in particular and isms in general without anyone else saying, ehhh no.

Sweetemotion · 05-04-2021 10:29pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

No. Why ignore them when you can engage them in debate and counter argument. If everyone was ignoring anewme and pwurple then this thread would be them telling the mods and admins about their issues with the Dubai 2 thread in particular and isms in general without anyone else saying, ehhh no.

It's a power trip, nothing else.

All they have is isims and wanting to police peoples views and educate them on said isms. Should be ignored and if not ignored, ridiculed.

pwurple · 05-04-2021 10:52pm

banie01 wrote: »

Those who want such a "charter" stifle debate and opinion in the name of community and inclusivity.

You know, a repetitive minority is not a majority.

Is it really too much to ask that a thread including discussion about a female doesn’t include references to groping her tits , slapping her around, or what her vagina looks/smells/feels like? Could we discuss, debate and opine without sexual degradation?

I know, it’s out there. The concept is clearly blowing people’s minds. How on earth can a civilised discussion be had if we can’t even accuse women of being on pornhub whenever we like you say! What a mind-melt. Free speech!

This is obviously a vital contribution in COVID quarantine threads, jogging threads, fashion threads, work threads, political threads, celebrity threads... ad bloody nauseum.

I’ll hold on for the response. No time limit, no pressure. The admins can take their time and consider.

Adsum.

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 10:55pm

anewme, I know what it's like to be in the minority and admire anyone who puts themselves out there for something they believe in. It's a lonely road. You clearly feel very strongly about the language used to describe women and that it's part of a deeper problem.

There of course exists misogyny and sexism in society, alongside an awful lot of other issues. Regarding the 'gravel' comment instead of saying "she's an awful eejit" words personal to her body are used. It's not very nice. I remember someone a while back wrote about drowning kittens and it made me feel uncomfortable, a similar feeling to when I read what you referred to.

There isn't an awful lot that Boards can do other than card or ban. If the mods were telling you "nothing to see here move along" then that would certainly be cause for questions. They aren't though. I don't encounter the level of women hating discourse so many others say they experience on here. The view that Boards can be unwelcome to us goes completely over my head. Its an alien world to me.

99nsr125 · 05-04-2021 10:59pm

anewme wrote: »

I'll ask you the same question as Isha, and it's a question as in food for thought as opposed me expecting you to answer- do you believe people have a right to racist views and to Express them.

In a free society, people have a right to their views it doesn't make them right or wrong, society as a whole decides that.

The thing is though what could be viewed as racism could also be a correct attribution.

It could seem I'm having a pop at Sudan or Somalia if I said the were full of backward mutilators but the thing is that's actually right. They have Female Genital Mutilation statistics in the 90's

It's the evidence behind your statement that distinguishes it from being simple truthful or discriminatory.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:01pm

Sweetemotion wrote: »

It's a power trip, nothing else.

All they have is isims and wanting to police peoples views and educate them on said isms. Should be ignored and if not ignored, ridiculed.

I wouldn’t be up for ridiculing them. Then they have the option of reporting for bullying.

Trying to ridicule someone can end up with shooting yourself in the foot like pwurple did earlier on. Attempting to take the high ground but resorting to smart arsed comments, which ended up backfiring on her.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:07pm

pwurple wrote: »

You know, a repetitive minority is not a majority.

Is it really too much to ask that a thread including discussion about a female doesn’t include references to groping her tits , slapping her around, or what her vagina looks/smells/feels like? Could we discuss, debate and opine without sexual degradation?

I know, it’s out there. The concept is clearly blowing people’s minds. How on earth can a civilised discussion be had if we can’t even accuse women of being on pornhub whenever we like you say! What a mind-melt. Free speech!

This is obviously a vital contribution in COVID quarantine threads, jogging threads, fashion threads, work threads, political threads, celebrity threads... ad bloody nauseum.

I’ll hold on for the response. No time limit, no pressure. The admins can take their time and consider.

Adsum.

Is it really to much to ask that a thread that includes those points you mentioned are taken in context? There was a lot of anger at the two women, it was a contentious thread and the type that attracts trouble and troublemakers like moths to a flame.

No one is saying that sexism isn’t present here. But trying to stifle conversation isn’t the way forward. Tokyo even said it him/herself. There were 21 unactioned reported posts all reported by one pissed off poster. That’s not someone engaging in debate. That someone taking offence at the mere thought that someone else disagrees with them.

99nsr125 · 05-04-2021 11:09pm

anewme wrote: »

I've said more than once here that I have no time for the behaviour of those women.

There is a big difference between expressing annoyance and saying their kids should be taken away and adopted abroad or other derogatory language used. That's not within the remit of Boards users to dish out personal abuse.

Another poster referred to some posts as defamatory, which indeed they were making all types of allegations.

Are you posting here in your Mod capacity or personal capacity Beasty?

You're constantly trying to backseat moderate that in itself is sanctionable

There is a certain maturity in accepting that you are wrong nobody likes being wrong but it's part of being an adult

Discussion on sexism

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