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Public service pay cut?

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    #2432
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    ted1 wrote: »
    What we need to remember is that when you are in the PS/CS for every 1 euro extra you receive 52cents hoes back to the employer.
    Then when you spend it 21% goes back again to the employer

    It is a lot more that 52%, if it is a euro over 60/70k.

    Tax: 40%
    PRSI: 4%
    Superannuation: 5.5%
    USC: 8%
    Additional Superannuation Contribution: 10.5%

    The real rate is around 62%.


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    #2433
    NovemberWren
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭NovemberWren


    They do pay Tax, PRSI, USC, etc. But so do Private Sector workers.

    When a recession or a pandemic occurs, businesses are closed down and jobs are lost.

    Yet, there is no worry for public sector (like librarians, some clerks etc.), whose public sector 'work business' is completely closed to the public; and continue to meet their mortgage payments, uninterrupted; the Salary continues and is safe.


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    #2434
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    NovemberWren wrote: »
    They do pay Tax, PRSI, USC, etc. But so do Private Sector workers.

    When a recession or a pandemic occurs, businesses are closed down and jobs are lost.

    Yet, there is no worry for public sector (like librarians, some clerks etc.), whose public sector 'work business' is completely closed to the public; and continue to meet their mortgage payments, uninterrupted; the Salary continues and is safe.

    That's because they are redeployed to other departments and are still working.


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    #2435
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    That's because they are redeployed to other departments and are still working.

    Sure they are


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    #2436
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is a lot more that 52%, if it is a euro over 60/70k.

    Tax: 40%
    PRSI: 4%
    Superannuation: 5.5%
    USC: 8%
    Additional Superannuation Contribution: 10.5%

    The real rate is around 62%.

    FFS YOU DONT COUNT SUPERANNUATION!!! If you were your discover you pay negative taxation
    It’s a pension like many other workers pay ( but get less back)


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    #2437
    plibige
    Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭plibige


    NovemberWren wrote: »
    They do pay Tax, PRSI, USC, etc. But so do Private Sector workers.

    When a recession or a pandemic occurs, businesses are closed down and jobs are lost.

    Yet, there is no worry for public sector (like librarians, some clerks etc.), whose public sector 'work business' is completely closed to the public; and continue to meet their mortgage payments, uninterrupted; the Salary continues and is safe.

    I'm sure you are well aware that no airport or port can operate without customs staff there. The ports would literally stop without them. As in no food or medicine into the country.

    So ye, some staff in the private sector couldn't work during a pandemic. But some staff such as gardai, nurses, customs officers, agricultural officers and justice staff couldn't stop whether they liked it or not.

    We can sit around all day and point fingers at certain areas of the private or public sector and say "they didn't do as much as me" or "i think they are over payed". But whether you like it or not your logic of "librarians and clerks haven't been doing much" makes as much sense as saying, the bar down the road hasn't opened up since last March, therefore we should cut all AIB staffs pay


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    #2438
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    FFS YOU DONT COUNT SUPERANNUATION!!! If you were your discover you pay negative taxation
    It’s a pension like many other workers pay ( but get less back)

    Jesus you shouldnt count taxes so, where does that stop?

    Manys the poster will claim we get our pension for nothing. The more that see accurate pay figures and deduction figures the better imo.


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    #2439
    I Am The Law
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭I Am The Law


    I hate them so much, I'm boiling with rage.


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    #2440
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Jesus you shouldnt count taxes so, where does that stop?

    Manys the poster will claim we get our pension for nothing. The more that see accurate pay figures and deduction figures the better imo.
    Pensions are not a tax

    When comparing wages to private sector its USC, PAYE and PRSI
    Pensions are separate, public sectors pensions are worth a lot nonre than private sector. If you think they are not then you are disillusion all

    i work for a state owned utility for my pension to match yours I’d need an extra 30 k a year.


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    #2441
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    Pensions are not a tax

    When comparing wages to private sector its USC, PAYE and PRSI
    Pensions are separate, public sectors pensions are worth a lot nonre than private sector. If you think they are not then you are disillusion all

    i work for a state owned utility for my pension to match yours I’d need an extra 30 k a year.

    Your point was that a ps worker cannot list their pension as a deduction because they get something for it

    My point was that we all get something for our tax and using the logic above you shouldnt count tax a deduction, which we'd all agree is a ridiculous position

    PS workers are clearly free to list their pension deduction as a deduction if they wish, anyone wanting to compare can deduct their own pension contribution likewise and we'll all sit here measuring our bits and bobs.


    Moving on

    Many times across many threads ive set out what many private sector pension packages are worth and what the different public sector packages are worth and what the comparable deductions might be.

    I dont propose to do so in detail again but the type of blanket statement that says "public pension is worth a lot more than private sector" is pretty worthless- it depends totally on grade and scheme for the former and the package and employer contribution for the latter.


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    #2442
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,551 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    ted1 wrote: »
    Pensions are not a tax

    When comparing wages to private sector its USC, PAYE and PRSI
    Pensions are separate, public sectors pensions are worth a lot nonre than private sector. If you think they are not then you are disillusion all

    i work for a state owned utility for my pension to match yours I’d need an extra 30 k a year.

    Have you heard about the Single Pension Scheme?


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    #2443
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Your point was that a ps worker cannot list their pension as a deduction because they get something for it

    My point was that we all get something for our tax and using the logic above you shouldnt count tax a deduction, which we'd all agree is a ridiculous position

    PS workers are clearly free to list their pension deduction as a deduction if they wish, anyone wanting to compare can deduct their own pension contribution likewise and we'll all sit here measuring our bits and bobs.


    Moving on

    Many times across many threads ive set out what many private sector pension packages are worth and what the different public sector packages are worth and what the comparable deductions might be.

    I dont propose to do so in detail again but the type of blanket statement that says "public pension is worth a lot more than private sector" is pretty worthless- it depends totally on grade and scheme for the former and the package and employer contribution for the latter.

    Which is why you just compare PAYE, PRSI and USC


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    #2444
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,173 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Your point was that a ps worker cannot list their pension as a deduction because they get something for it

    My point was that we all get something for our tax and using the logic above you shouldnt count tax a deduction, which we'd all agree is a ridiculous position

    PS workers are clearly free to list their pension deduction as a deduction if they wish, anyone wanting to compare can deduct their own pension contribution likewise and we'll all sit here measuring our bits and bobs.


    Moving on

    Many times across many threads ive set out what many private sector pension packages are worth and what the different public sector packages are worth and what the comparable deductions might be.

    I dont propose to do so in detail again but the type of blanket statement that says "public pension is worth a lot more than private sector" is pretty worthless- it depends totally on grade and scheme for the former and the package and employer contribution for the latter.

    Irrespective of which pension is worth more, payment into a pension can hardly be listed as a deduction on your wage. To do so, deserves ridicule.


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    #2445
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Have you heard about the Single Pension Scheme?

    I have , my sisters a new sisters house are paying into it as they worked i the private sector but moved into teaching do they could holiday with their kids. They are chuffed it’s worth so much compared to what their private sector pension was.


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    #2446
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,551 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Irrespective of which pension is worth more, payment into a pension can hardly be listed as a deduction on your wage. To do so, deserves ridicule.

    Public service pension deductions aren't "payments into a pension". They are fairly arbitrary deductions, based on a promise of future payments.


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    #2447
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Irrespective of which pension is worth more, payment into a pension can hardly be listed as a deduction on your wage. To do so, deserves ridicule.

    Depends on context, and i wont argue as a rule. I wouldnt do so meself in a comparison, for instance

    But I think when you have very general statements being made its valuable to be precise in these things though

    And in the boards.ie merry go round of blunt-instrument statements about what PS pensions are worth, i think yeah absolutely keep reminding anyone reading that its neither free nor always incomparable to many schemes out there in the private sector


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    #2448
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    I have , my sisters a new sisters house are paying into it as they worked i the private sector but moved into teaching do they could holiday with their kids. They are chuffed it’s worth so much compared to what their private sector pension was.

    Any details for us there by any chance?


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    #2449
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,173 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Public service pension deductions aren't "payments into a pension". They are fairly arbitrary deductions, based on a promise of future payments.

    Aren’t all pensions based on a promise of future payments?


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    #2450
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,551 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    ted1 wrote: »
    I have , my sisters a new sisters house are paying into it as they worked i the private sector but moved into teaching do they could holiday with their kids. They are chuffed it’s worth so much compared to what their private sector pension was.

    I hope they're not teaching maths or business, as it seems they are not good at financial analysis.


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    #2451
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,551 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Aren’t all pensions based on a promise of future payments?

    No. Private sector DC schemes are literally a payment into a pension fund, often with the employer also making a payment into the fund, and the employee gets that fund on retirement.

    For public sector pensions, there is no fund - just a reduced salary and a promise.


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    #2452
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    I hope they're not teaching maths or business, as it seems they are not good at financial analysis.


    No they are primary school teachers , but they are coming from fund management, the key driver is having school holidays been free to go abroad for the summer ( brother in law is French , so 3 months i France )

    So their calculations are believable


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    #2453
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    No they are primary school teachers , but they are coming from fund management, the key driver is having school holidays been free to go abroad for the summer ( brother in law is French , so 3 months i France )

    So their calculations are believable

    Any details there by any chance


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    #2454
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    No. Private sector DC schemes are literally a payment into a pension fund, often with the employer also making a payment into the fund, and the employee gets that fund on retirement.

    For public sector pensions, there is no fund - just a reduced salary and a promise.

    The days of DC are gone. I work for ESB no one who started in the past few decades has a DC pension


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    #2455
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Any details there by any chance

    Details on what ? A poster detailed eatkier what his/ her contributions are


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    #2456
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ted1 wrote: »
    Details on what ? A poster detailed eatkier what his/ her contributions are

    Any details on the people you know who went from being fund managers to primary school teachers under the single scheme and canmot believe how much better their pensions are now

    Like youve said twice


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    #2457
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Sounds suspicious and primary teachers don't get 3 months off, that's secondary. Why did they not convert to SS given their initial degrees to be involved in fund management?

    New pension, especially if you join later, is awful. There are very good, acturial calculations done showing bar you definitely do 40 you may not even get back what you put in. I'd be interested in what calculations they are using, having joined late and without the option to buy notional service.

    I'm on the second last pension. Not brilliant, jokingly call it the bronze but it will be better than an AVC. I've seen projections showing that may not be true of the new pension.

    Pensions for the public and civil service in ireland are paid from direct taxation, it's stupid and certainly not the best way of doing it with an aging population but forward planning has never been and irish strength


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    #2458
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,551 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    ted1 wrote: »
    No they are primary school teachers , but they are coming from fund management, the key driver is having school holidays been free to go abroad for the summer ( brother in law is French , so 3 months i France )

    So their calculations are believable

    Primary school teachers don't get three months holidays so again, it looks like they are spectacularly bad at calculations.

    But if you'd like to share them, we can see for sure.


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    #2459
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Primary school teachers don't get three months holidays so again, it looks like they are spectacularly bad at calculations.

    But if you'd like to share them, we can see for sure.

    To be fair to Ted hes working off what theyve told him

    Its likely that they just explained it badly, because fund managers arent likely to have made such basic errors as radically overvaluing their pension entitlements or getting their own holidays incorrect by 50%, right?

    Ted you can see why i said its important to be precise, i hope?


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    #2460
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,135 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Aren’t all pensions based on a promise of future payments?

    No.

    PS pensions are unfunded, they are based on promises.

    Most private sector pensions are funded, backed by accumulated assets.


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    #2461
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,356 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Sounds suspicious and primary teachers don't get 3 months off, that's secondary. Why did they not convert to SS given their initial degrees to be involved in fund management?

    July. August, +2weeks in March and October


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