What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

appledrop · 02-04-2021 05:19PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Husband got a call to get the vaccine Tuesday in Cork City Hall. He will be happy to take any but I am just wondering if anyone knows which one it will be? I am more concerned about the 12 week wait for him to be fully covered with him being high risk.

None of us knows unfortunately until we rock up on the day.

If he is high risk I'd say he is better off having a vaccine, whatever it is.

Thanfully blood clots don't seem to effect men as much for whatever reason.

Both my parents over 70 so I'm just relieved they will be getting Modena or Pfizer whenever it will be!

02-04-2021 05:22PM

mick087 wrote: »

Yes, i would be at my Drs 5 minutes after i got phone call

Are you a woman under 60?

If I was a man I'd take it no problem.

appledrop · 02-04-2021 05:23PM

Strazdas wrote: »

That's a good point. Very few people under the age of 60 have been vaccinated with AZ, which might explain why we're not hearing about blood clots.

Given that we will soon have four vaccines, one would have thought this situation would be perfectly manageable.

Yea we are meant to be getting 600,000 Johnson ones around mid April so surely that will help them manage use of AZ better?

I've said all along even before blood clots issue its the dud of the vaccines. Only about 10% effective against South African strain and god knows what it's like against any other new strains. It's the more old fashioned style vaccine like flu jab and as we know with that one if they go for wrong strain of flu that year its pretty useless.

Pfizer/Modena are way superior vaccine and seem to be able to adapt to new strains.

murphaph · 02-04-2021 05:27PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Would ye take it if offered ?

Yes, but I'm male and I'm increasingly convinced this is affecting far more women than men. That "improves" my odds compared to the whole cohort of my age group. I think covid is more dangerous for me and if I could get AZ now or wait an unspecified length of time for an mRNA vaccine, I'd take the AZ now.

I still think the decisions to restrict it for use in over 60s is entirely sensible and hope Ireland does the same soon.

Charles Babbage · 02-04-2021 05:42PM

appledrop wrote: »

Yea we are meant to be getting 600,000 Johnson ones around mid April so surely that will help them manage use of AZ better?

We are getting 600,000 from mid-April, most of these will arrive in June, probably in the last week!

Strazdas · 02-04-2021 05:43PM

appledrop wrote: »

Yea we are meant to be getting 600,000 Johnson ones around mid April so surely that will help them manage use of AZ better?

I've said all along even before blood clots issue its the dud of the vaccines. Only about 10% effective against South African strain and god knows what it's like against any other new strains. It's the more old fashioned style vaccine like flu jab and as we know with that one if they go for wrong strain of flu that year its pretty useless.

Pfizer/Modena are way superior vaccine and seem to be able to adapt to new strains.

Yes, it wouldn't take much adjustment at all to make sure AZ wasn't going to the under 60s or under 50s in coming months, thus negating (or reducing) the risk of blood clots.

We've been lucky in Ireland so far in that we don't seem to have seen significant reports of side effects with any vaccine that has been given.

drunkmonkey · 02-04-2021 05:51PM

Strazdas wrote: »

That's a good point. Very few people under the age of 60 have been vaccinated with AZ, which might explain why we're not hearing about blood clots.

Given that we will soon have four vaccines, one would have thought this situation would be perfectly manageable.

That statement doesn't make much sense any Health care worker I know that is no where near over 60 has had their first shot of the AZ, there's a lot more under 60's who've had this than you think. It's why I'm surprised it doesn't have any clotting effect in Irish people, the same way the pfizer doesn't effect our very old like other countries.

Probes · 02-04-2021 06:10PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That statement doesn't make much sense any Health care worker I know that is no where near over 60 has had their first shot of the AZ, there's a lot more under 60's who've had this than you think. It's why I'm surprised it doesn't have any clotting effect in Irish people, the same way the pfizer doesn't effect our very old like other countries.

Is it not about 1 in 100,000 chance at the moment? We’ve only given 180,000 and most to older people.

Stark · 02-04-2021 06:12PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That statement doesn't make much sense any Health care worker I know that is no where near over 60 has had their first shot of the AZ, there's a lot more under 60's who've had this than you think. It's why I'm surprised it doesn't have any clotting effect in Irish people, the same way the pfizer doesn't effect our very old like other countries.

It's a 1 in approx 200,000 event. Don't think we had that many healthcare workers vaccinated with it. (Any ones I know were vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna).

titan18 · 02-04-2021 06:35PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

Are you a woman under 60?

If I was a man I'd take it no problem.

As a male, I see the bigger issue that it's 14 weeks before you get any benefits of it from our government. I'd rather wait for a different one with better protection like Pfizer rather than getting AZ and being seen as unvaccinated for another 14 weeks.

If we do get stuff further on the vaccine bonus, AZ won't count based on the existing criteria.

02-04-2021 06:38PM

Amongst women under 60 it's 1 in 61,000, according to the German data.

Focusing on the rates in the overall population is not going to give an accurate picture, when it's very clear that this disorder affects a specific group.

We probably haven't vaccinated enough women under 60 with AZ to see any significant number of cases at this point though.

Russman · 02-04-2021 06:42PM

Are the odds significantly better re not getting these clots/blood events for women over 60 and opposed to under 60 ?
My mother is 69 and says she won’t take AZ, admittedly she has a history of blood clots and has an aneurysm on her brain, so is extremely worried she’ll have to turn down her shot when the time comes in mid April.

Inquitus · 02-04-2021 06:46PM

I won't get the AZ vaccine, I had Covid a couple of months ago, have immunity and am happy to wait for a vaccine with a less checkered history.

Strazdas · 02-04-2021 06:53PM

Russman wrote: »

Are the odds significantly better re not getting these clots/blood events for women over 60 and opposed to under 60 ?
My mother is 69 and says she won’t take AZ, admittedly she has a history of blood clots and has an aneurysm on her brain, so is extremely worried she’ll have to turn down her shot when the time comes in mid April.

It would appear to be, yes. One theory we've heard is that younger women have higher levels of estrogen and that leaves them prone to rare blood clots.

appledrop · 02-04-2021 06:59PM

Russman wrote: »

Are the odds significantly better re not getting these clots/blood events for women over 60 and opposed to under 60 ?
My mother is 69 and says she won’t take AZ, admittedly she has a history of blood clots and has an aneurysm on her brain, so is extremely worried she’ll have to turn down her shot when the time comes in mid April.

It does seem to be women under 60 that blood clots affecting the most. Could be due to hormones when your of child bearing age or before menopause is over but we just don't know.

Now I could be wrong but I thought we were not using AZ in Ireland for anyone over 65?

Now maybe it's 70 but I have 65 in my head for some reason.

If your mother has history of those blood clots I'd strongly advise her to consult with her doctor. Maybe in her case they can make sure she gets Pfizer.

EDit · 02-04-2021 07:00PM

Strazdas wrote: »

It would appear to be, yes. One theory we've heard is that younger women have higher levels of estrogen and that leaves them prone to rare blood clots.

Interesting. That would suggest that post-menopausal women might be less at risk of these events?

appledrop · 02-04-2021 07:06PM

EDit wrote: »

Interesting. That would suggest that post-menopausal women might be less at risk of these events?

It does seem to be but we don't really know why yet.

Some countries have now done a u turn and are only giving AZ to over 55 or over 65.

Now there have been some men affected aswell just not as many as women and again seem to be under 60 in men aswell.

Strazdas · 02-04-2021 07:12PM

EDit wrote: »

Interesting. That would suggest that post-menopausal women might be less at risk of these events?

That seems to be what the theory is - high estrogen equates to higher risk.

appledrop · 02-04-2021 07:24PM

Strazdas wrote: »

That seems to be what the theory is - high estrogen equates to higher risk.

I also think taking pill could play a part in some cases.

Taking the pill puts women at higher risk of blood clots compared to women of similar age not taking it, so could leave them more susceptible to blood clots when they get AZ.

Women who smoke also at higher risk of blood clots in general.

Anyway they need to analysis very closely any medication, background etc of those who have had blood clots after taking AZ.

robinph · 02-04-2021 07:40PM

titan18 wrote: »

As a male, I see the bigger issue that it's 14 weeks before you get any benefits of it from our government. I'd rather wait for a different one with better protection like Pfizer rather than getting AZ and being seen as unvaccinated for another 14 weeks.

If we do get stuff further on the vaccine bonus, AZ won't count based on the existing criteria.

Where on earth did you get the 14 weeks number from? It's a couple of weeks after the first dose of any of the vaccines and you have most of the protection that the vaccines are going to give. The second doses just bump that up by another 10% or so in the stats that they measured for each vaccine, but those efficacy numbers are not comparable between vaccines as they were all done jn different locations and different parts of local waves of virus cases so mean relatively little.

The only important number is if it prevents death from Covid19, and all the vaccines score 100% on that.

odyssey06 · 02-04-2021 07:43PM

robinph wrote: »

Where on earth did you get the 14 weeks number from? It's a couple of weeks after the first dose of any of the vaccines and you have most of the protection that the vaccines are going to give. The second doses just bump that up by another 10% or so in the stats that they measured for each vaccine, but those efficacy numbers are not comparable between vaccines as they were all done jn different locations and different parts of local waves of virus cases so mean relatively little.

The only important number is if it prevents death from Covid19, and all the vaccines score 100% on that.

It is up to 12 weeks til 2nd dose and a further 2 weeks before you are seen as fully vaccinated legally.

Call me Al · 02-04-2021 07:49PM

Russman wrote: »

Are the odds significantly better re not getting these clots/blood events for women over 60 and opposed to under 60 ?
My mother is 69 and says she won’t take AZ, admittedly she has a history of blood clots and has an aneurysm on her brain, so is extremely worried she’ll have to turn down her shot when the time comes in mid April.

Any news reports I've read said cases were in younger women.
I don't think I've read of anyone over 55.

At this stage I'd prefer if they confined this vaccine to men and, once the efficacy is there, to all those over maybe 55 or 60.

robinph · 02-04-2021 07:53PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

It is up to 12 weeks til 2nd dose and a further 2 weeks before you are seen as fully vaccinated legally.

There is no legal definition of being fully vaccinated, or of needing to wait 14 weeks before you get any benefit. Within a couple of weeks of jab one you are significantly protected from catching the virus, getting ill from the virus, passing the virus on to anyone else or dying from it. It doesn't suddenly take effect 2 weeks after your second dose.

If there was no benefit until after week 14 then the case rates and death rates in the UK since the middle of January need a new explanation.

Edit: Just seen an article about 2 fully vaccinated people being allowed to meet indoors from mid April. Well that's a fupping stupid idea right there and of course everyone will follow that rule to the letter. <face palm>

vienne86 · 02-04-2021 08:03PM

appledrop wrote: »

It does seem to be women under 60 that blood clots affecting the most. Could be due to hormones when your of child bearing age or before menopause is over but we just don't know.

Now I could be wrong but I thought we were not using AZ in Ireland for anyone over 65?

Now maybe it's 70 but I have 65 in my head for some reason.

If your mother has history of those blood clots I'd strongly advise her to consult with her doctor. Maybe in her case they can make sure she gets Pfizer.

We're not giving AZ to anyone over 70. In February I saw a quote from Colm Henry saying it would be given to 65-69 year olds......I noted this as I'm in that group.

Russman · 02-04-2021 08:13PM

vienne86 wrote: »

We're not giving AZ to anyone over 70. In February I saw a quote from Colm Henry saying it would be given to 65-69 year olds......I noted this as I'm in that group.

I wonder have the delivery/supply issues since Feb impacted on that ?

Wolf359f · 02-04-2021 08:48PM

I see BBC reporting that there has been 7 deaths in the UK due to the same issues as has been seen elsewhere in Europe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56620646

titan18 · 02-04-2021 08:58PM

robinph wrote: »

Where on earth did you get the 14 weeks number from? It's a couple of weeks after the first dose of any of the vaccines and you have most of the protection that the vaccines are going to give. The second doses just bump that up by another 10% or so in the stats that they measured for each vaccine, but those efficacy numbers are not comparable between vaccines as they were all done jn different locations and different parts of local waves of virus cases so mean relatively little.

The only important number is if it prevents death from Covid19, and all the vaccines score 100% on that.

I see you've seen the article now in a later post but the governments vaccine bonus kicks in after 2 weeks from 2nd dose. So, ATM, that's just people meeting indoors but if they do like what the Israelis have done with vaccination passports and more stuff opens for those people, then anyone who gets AZ is waiting a lot longer than people with Pfizer.

It might not happen of course but I'd be wary of getting AZ vaccine as a result that you end up as effectively 2nd class of the vaccinated.

appledrop · 02-04-2021 09:01PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I see BBC reporting that there has been 7 deaths in the UK due to the same issues as has been seen elsewhere in Europe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56620646

It's getting serious now they kept that quiet.

If AZ is causing blood clots (not proven yet) and it mainly affects younger women who the stats show are very unlikely to die from Covid then you would have to question why they would take it?

Women will start to reject it in their droves and this will lead to issues.

The government have plenty of time anyway to come up with a strategy( not that they will) as now moving to age based system so buys them time to give women in this age cohort a different vaccine.

robinph · 02-04-2021 09:25PM

titan18 wrote: »

I see you've seen the article now in a later post but the governments vaccine bonus kicks in after 2 weeks from 2nd dose. So, ATM, that's just people meeting indoors but if they do like what the Israelis have done with vaccination passports and more stuff opens for those people, then anyone who gets AZ is waiting a lot longer than people with Pfizer.

It might not happen of course but I'd be wary of getting AZ vaccine as a result that you end up as effectively 2nd class of the vaccinated.

It's an incredibly stupid policy, much like the idea of vaccine passports for going to a pub. Just creates incentives for non compliance and people to ignore the rules that you need them to follow.

In a strangely sensible policy from the UK government they have been saying that socialising indoors, regardless of who and how many vaccine jabs you have between you is still not permitted. Keep things simple. Don't have people thinking that others are flouting rules or can do more than you because of some loophole and just keep the same policy for everyone until you reach the point when it becomes safe for everyone... Which in the UKs case really isn't very far away, but creating division now is just plain idiotic.

titan18 · 02-04-2021 09:59PM

robinph wrote: »

It's an incredibly stupid policy, much like the idea of vaccine passports for going to a pub. Just creates incentives for non compliance and people to ignore the rules that you need them to follow.

In a strangely sensible policy from the UK government they have been saying that socialising indoors, regardless of who and how many vaccine jabs you have between you is still not permitted. Keep things simple. Don't have people thinking that others are flouting rules or can do more than you because of some loophole and just keep the same policy for everyone until you reach the point when it becomes safe for everyone... Which in the UKs case really isn't very far away, but creating division now is just plain idiotic.

Ya, I don't trust our government to not go with it though and have vaccine bonuses. Maybe they'll change it but ATM, AZ is worthless for the vaccine bonus they have in place.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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