What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

plodder · 01-04-2021 08:22AM

mick087 wrote: »

It not only sounds crazy it is a crazy thing to be saying.

You really want to read back to what you have been suggesting hinting at.

To think not only all the UK politicians but also all the UK media are in some sort of plot together is concerning.

I don't know what literature you have been reading but you might want to lay off it fora bit.

I don't think there is any conspiracy but the post you responded to is not as crazy as you suggest. AZ is definitely caught up in the Brexit war. Remember Johnson wanting the union flag on the vials, and people refusing foreign jabs. These were both reported in UK newspapers. You could of course, just as easily accuse some European nations of being equally biased against AZ. So, it is caught up in Brexit one way or another.

I have found the sense of British exceptionalism, that they absolutely deserve to be vaccinated ahead of everyone else, a bit shocking. I don't see anyone in the UK media questioning it, or any sense of embarrassment that the EU is exporting vaccines to them but nothing coming the other way.

fly_agaric · 01-04-2021 08:36AM

deeperlearning wrote: »

Very little delivered again from AstraZeneca last week:

Where did these come from? (edit sorry - https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1377324336592343053?s=20
If that is right, the variation with AstraZeneca is huge and amounts seem to be going in wrong direction.
I wonder do HSE (and other Health authorities around EU) have to keep 1/2 of it in stock at all times becuase (unlike the golden boy customer UK) they don't have a bulls notion if/when they'll get enough to give out a second dose??

celt262 · 01-04-2021 08:39AM

pueblo wrote: »

AstraZeneca vaccine has been rebranded ‘Vaxzevria’. Marketing matters.

Its just Vauxhall taking the name over from Opel.

Stark · 01-04-2021 09:11AM

fly_agaric wrote: »

I wonder do HSE (and other Health authorities around EU) have to keep 1/2 of it in stock at all times becuase (unlike the golden boy customer UK) they don't have a bulls notion if/when they'll get enough to give out a second dose??

Jesus I really hope they don't do that. Supply issues should be resolved in 3 months. In any case, the costs/risks that come from having only half as many people vaccinated over the next 3 months far outweigh the risk of some people having their second dose delayed. (And it seems delaying the second dose doesn't really matter in the cases of the AstraZeneca vaccine).

is_that_so · 01-04-2021 09:17AM

fly_agaric wrote: »

Where did these come from? (edit sorry - https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1377324336592343053)
If that is right, the variation with AstraZeneca is huge and amounts seem to be going in wrong direction.
I wonder do HSE (and other Health authorities around EU) have to keep 1/2 of it in stock at all times becuase (unlike the golden boy customer UK) they don't have a bulls notion if/when they'll get enough to give out a second dose??

I think the 50% is Moderna only and they requested it. It's really more of a Q3 vaccine in terms of quantities for us.

plodder · 01-04-2021 09:26AM

fly_agaric wrote: »

Where did these come from? (edit sorry - https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1377324336592343053)

"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"

mick087 · 01-04-2021 09:28AM

plodder wrote: »

I don't think there is any conspiracy but the post you responded to is not as crazy as you suggest. AZ is definitely caught up in the Brexit war. Remember Johnson wanting the union flag on the vials, and people refusing foreign jabs. These were both reported in UK newspapers. You could of course, just as easily accuse some European nations of being equally biased against AZ. So, it is caught up in Brexit one way or another.

I have found the sense of British exceptionalism, that they absolutely deserve to be vaccinated ahead of everyone else, a bit shocking. I don't see anyone in the UK media questioning it, or any sense of embarrassment that the EU is exporting vaccines to them but nothing coming the other way.

There is truth in what you say and i have no time for the current UK government or large parts of there media but that is a different issue. (No Offense to the Brits in that remark)

But come on that chap and his followers who are suggesting, hinting that all UK politicians and all the media are in some sort of plot is ridiculous and silly.

fly_agaric · 01-04-2021 09:31AM

Stark wrote: »

Jesus I really hope they don't do that. Supply issues should be resolved in 3 months. In any case, the costs/risks that come from having only half as many people vaccinated over the next 3 months far outweigh the risk of some people having their second dose delayed. (And it seems delaying the second dose doesn't really matter in the cases of the AstraZeneca vaccine).

I meant specifically for AZ since the amounts they get are so variable.
Not the other vaccines where supply looks more predictible.

edit: Had a look at "Covid Tracker" application and it says they've used 175k doses of it so they hold about ~ 23 % back.
For Pfizer-Biontech they have used 614k so ~ 6 % not used.
For Moderna they have used 30k so hold ~ 44 % back.

plodder wrote: »

"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"

Think I fixed that link now, apologies for that. I did an image search for it and found it in a tweet. Tried to copy the link and messed it up.
The source of the data seems to be:

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/2cbc2-update-on-covid-19-vaccine-deliveries-31-march-2021/

is_that_so · 01-04-2021 09:34AM

plodder wrote: »

"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"

Remove the last ")" !

Sam Russell · 01-04-2021 10:13AM

Oh dear - it could happen to a bishop.

Millions of Johnson & Johnson vaccines ruined in US factory mix-up

The plant is run by Emergent BioSolutions, a manufacturing partner to both Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca, whose vaccine has yet to be authorised for use in the US. Federal officials attributed the mistake to human error.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/millions-of-johnson-johnson-vaccines-ruined-in-us-factory-mix-up-1.4525551

Tippbhoy1 · 01-04-2021 12:31PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Oh dear - it could happen to a bishop.

Millions of Johnson & Johnson vaccines ruined in US factory mix-up

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/millions-of-johnson-johnson-vaccines-ruined-in-us-factory-mix-up-1.4525551

I see that article says all US supply to date was from the Netherlands.
I know there had been concerns around some stock being sent to the US for fill and finish, but I didn’t realise this was so open.

The next problem here is how J&J are going to backfill this.

Strazdas · 01-04-2021 12:40PM

mick087 wrote: »

There is truth in what you say and i have no time for the current UK government or large parts of there media but that is a different issue. (No Offense to the Brits in that remark)

But come on that chap and his followers who are suggesting, hinting that all UK politicians and all the media are in some sort of plot is ridiculous and silly.

No conspiracy or conspiracy theory. If there was an issue with blood clots and / or deaths in the UK as a result of AZ, the numbers would be very small. It would be very easy though for the media to not to report this or not go out of their way to investigate it.

I stand by my claim that any media outlet such as the Guardian or Channel 4 News raising question marks about the AstraZeneca vaccine would come under attack from many sources. The same people are already tearing into anyone in the EU who dares say anything about AZ. A British media outlet doing the same would probably get an even worse reaction (no doubt accused of being reckless and irresponsible and trying to 'sabotage' the UK's vaccination programme).

odyssey06 · 01-04-2021 12:53PM

Strazdas wrote: »

No conspiracy or conspiracy theory. If there was an issue with blood clots and / or deaths in the UK as a result of AZ, the numbers would be very small. It would be very easy though for the media to not to report this or not go out of their way to investigate it.

I stand by my claim that any media outlet such as the Guardian or Channel 4 News raising question marks about the AstraZeneca vaccine would come under attack from many sources. The same people are already tearing into anyone in the EU who dares say anything about AZ. A British media outlet doing the same would probably get an even worse reaction (no doubt accused of being reckless and irresponsible and trying to 'sabotage' the UK's vaccination programme).

As if that has ever stopped the anti Tory anti Brexit Guardian before... like they care what the Telegraph and other outlets think of it. They would take such criticism as a badge of honour. It would not stop them whistleblowing.

This is utterly without foundation at present. When you have something to back it up with post it. At the moment you are banging a drum that sounds very much like a conspiracy theory.

fly_agaric · 01-04-2021 12:58PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

The next problem here is how J&J are going to backfill this.

I was cynically wondering the same reading through that. Should try and be more optimistic I suppose!

Strazdas · 01-04-2021 01:38PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

As if that has ever stopped the anti Tory anti Brexit Guardian before... like they care what the Telegraph and other outlets think of it. They would take such criticism as a badge of honour. It would not stop them whistleblowing.

This is utterly without foundation at present. When you have something to back it up with post it. At the moment you are banging a drum that sounds very much like a conspiracy theory.

I haven't even said any of the above is happening, only explained how it 'could' happen. I did say yesterday though that it's somewhat curious how we're not hearing any stories in the English media about AZ side effects given that 15-20m British people have been given the vaccine.

odyssey06 · 01-04-2021 01:45PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I haven't even said any of the above is happening, only explained how it 'could' happen. I did say yesterday though that it's somewhat curious how we're not hearing any stories in the English media about AZ side effects given that 15-20m British people have been given the vaccine.

It is curious, the whole episode is curious - in the sense of what's the pattern here to who is affected badly versus v minor side effects for many.
But as other posters have suggested, it could well be down to the cohorts of who received what vaccines.

I think it's way too early to be flying a kite for a hypothetical cover-up, especially when the plausibility of that cover-up is dubious given the diversity of British media outlets.

Strazdas · 01-04-2021 02:13PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

It is curious, the whole episode is curious - in the sense of what's the pattern here to who is affected badly versus v minor side effects for many.
But as other posters have suggested, it could well be down to the cohorts of who received what vaccines.

I think it's way too early to be flying a kite for a hypothetical cover-up, especially when the plausibility of that cover-up is dubious given the diversity of British media outlets.

Would 'omission' represent a 'cover up' though? That's where things get tricky - cover up would suggest they have the info on their desk but are refusing to publish it. What if they simply haven't gone looking for the info or the story?

Sam Russell · 01-04-2021 02:34PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Would 'omission' represent a 'cover up' though? That's where things get tricky - cover up would suggest they have the info on their desk but are refusing to publish it. What if they simply haven't gone looking for the info or the story?

The death rate from Covid is not getting any attention - non-story. The Brexit difficulties that affect huge numbers of small enterprises resulting from export documentation - another non-story. The huge amount of Gov money and contracts handed out to chums - another non-story. Westminster Ministers breaking the Ministerial Code - now that is a non-story.

The difficulties that N. Sturgeon is experiencing - now that is a huge story.

I would think that is an emerging pattern.

odyssey06 · 01-04-2021 02:41PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Would 'omission' represent a 'cover up' though? That's where things get tricky - cover up would suggest they have the info on their desk but are refusing to publish it. What if they simply haven't gone looking for the info or the story?

This was the Guardian covering the previous suspension of AZ.

The Guardian wouldn't have to go looking for it.
A UK grieving relative in a similar situation would be bound to get onto them or the local radio shock jock.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/15/coronavirus-live-news-astrazeneca-finds-no-evidence-of-blood-clot-risk-as-netherlands-suspends-vaccine

RobMc59 · 01-04-2021 04:27PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The death rate from Covid is not getting any attention - non-story. The Brexit difficulties that affect huge numbers of small enterprises resulting from export documentation - another non-story. The huge amount of Gov money and contracts handed out to chums - another non-story. Westminster Ministers breaking the Ministerial Code - now that is a non-story.

The difficulties that N. Sturgeon is experiencing - now that is a huge story.

I would think that is an emerging pattern.

I`m surprised you would encourage conspiracy theories Sam and the fact covid cases and deaths have dropped dramatically in the UK is significant as it appears to buck the general trend in Europe.
Just as the actions of johnson and co should be scrutinised,are you suggesting the actions of sturgeon should be exempt from the same scrutiny?

deeperlearning · 01-04-2021 05:34PM

Rob Mc59, what Sam Russell describes is simply factual.

Just because you don't like these facts doesn't make it a conspiracy theory.

Strazdas · 01-04-2021 05:46PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The death rate from Covid is not getting any attention - non-story. The Brexit difficulties that affect huge numbers of small enterprises resulting from export documentation - another non-story. The huge amount of Gov money and contracts handed out to chums - another non-story. Westminster Ministers breaking the Ministerial Code - now that is a non-story.

The difficulties that N. Sturgeon is experiencing - now that is a huge story.

I would think that is an emerging pattern.

The UK vaccination story has been a big success and is very welcome *but* it looks certain like it is being used by the Tories and the Tory press to deflect criticism away from Johnson and to give the EU a kicking. Almost a godsend for them ; their base rallies behind the Govt and doubles up on its dislike for the EU.

It's ironic that they accuse everything the EU does as being 'politically motivated', when this whole UK vs EU vaccines thing is one million percent politically motivated and with an agenda behind it.

01-04-2021 05:50PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think that is an emerging pattern.

There is definitely an emerging pattern alright.

Nothing to do with the British press, more to do with this forum.

Sam Russell · 01-04-2021 06:09PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m surprised you would encourage conspiracy theories Sam and the fact covid cases and deaths have dropped dramatically in the UK is significant as it appears to buck the general trend in Europe.
Just as the actions of johnson and co should be scrutinised,are you suggesting the actions of sturgeon should be exempt from the same scrutiny?

But that is the point. It is not the same level of scrutiny. Johnson and co - no scrutiny even when they crow about breaking international treaties with the ink barely dry, while Sturgeon get dragged out over a 'he said, she said' spat about a case of sexual misbehaviour, but not by her.

Dual standards, or a case of no standards in Westminster.

Melanchthon · 01-04-2021 06:38PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

But that is the point. It is not the same level of scrutiny. Johnson and co - no scrutiny even when they crow about breaking international treaties with the ink barely dry, while Sturgeon get dragged out over a 'he said, she said' spat about a case of sexual misbehaviour, but not by her.

Dual standards, or a case of no standards in Westminster.

Stop reading the Telegraph, Mail and Express.

Start reading the Guardian, The Mirror, Private Eye, The New statesman or even the BMJ.

To say there wasn't lots of writing about the Covid death toll is insane.

PCeeeee · 01-04-2021 06:45PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Is it also the case that Switzerland has not approved AZ?

Yes

Sam Russell · 01-04-2021 07:32PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Stop reading the Telegraph, Mail and Express.

Start reading the Guardian, The Mirror, Private Eye, The New statesman or even the BMJ.

To say there wasn't lots of writing about the Covid death toll is insane.

I have never read the Telegraph, Mail, or Express. I have read the online version of the Guardian, but much gets repeated in the IT. Never read the Mirror. Private Eye - I would read it but not buy it - it is too UK centric, and I do not know the people he exposes. I live in Ireland and do not read UK papers, and certainly not those that are paywalled on the web (like Murdoch's ones).

The death rate in the UK is 2.5 times ours and is one of the highest in the world (of any major country - some tiny ones are too small to be statistically true). They also have a strange way of counting that downplays the numbers. This will become apparent when excess deaths are compiled when this is all over.

Strazdas · 01-04-2021 07:34PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Stop reading the Telegraph, Mail and Express.

Start reading the Guardian, The Mirror, Private Eye, The New statesman or even the BMJ.

To say there wasn't lots of writing about the Covid death toll is insane.

But aren't they framing the entire AstraZeneca debate and UK vs EU vaccines thing? I keep hearing that we shouldn't pay any attention to what the right wing press are saying, but they seem to have created the narrative of the shambolic EU rollout and the EU having it in for AZ (through blatant jingoism and propaganda and a lot of lies and distortions).

01-04-2021 07:36PM

Strazdas wrote: »

But aren't they framing the entire AstraZeneca debate and UK vs EU vaccines thing? I keep hearing that we shouldn't pay any attention to what the right wing press are saying, but they seem to have created the narrative of the shambolic EU rollout and the EU having it in for AZ (through blatant jingoism and propaganda and a lot of lies and distortions).

This is all in your head.

Ten of Swords · 01-04-2021 07:37PM

Thread is getting off topic again - can we stick to AstraZeneca please?

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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