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Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

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  • #8462
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Nobotty wrote: »
    You might want to check the election results again Mc or your nickname for him,was it Leo the 5th? Or remain in cloud cuckoo land
    That 'theory' is a huge judge judy laugh out loud moment when compared to the reasoning vradakar gave
    Its a presumtion of guilt supposition as opposed to what the law provides for
    I do know what you are really at here though,you enjoy needling the Fg'ers
    If they're concerned by your last 2 posts or any of this opinion,they'd be stupid

    The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

    There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

    Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

    Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

    Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.


  • #8463
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sad to see Leo quitting politics and returning to medicine in the US with his partner. I wish him well anyway.
    That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.


  • #8464
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    skimpydoo wrote: »
    That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

    But.. there's no getting away from the fact that Leo leaked a document to his pal.

    Sorry, just wanted to apply the default, brain-dead contribution that's usually seen in this thread (which I am henceforth naming 'the echo rebuttal').


  • #8465
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    But.. there's no getting away from the fact that Leo leaked a document to his pal.

    Sorry, just wanted to apply the default contribution usually seen in this thread (which I am henceforth naming 'the echo rebuttal').

    Well he did apologise for it.


  • #8466
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The repetition, over and over, of aspects relating entirely to optics.
    No. Those are the facts. You've been repeatedly trying to distract people from the facts of what happened. Perhaps you don't want to see Varadkar charged and the fallout that will affect FG and, perhaps, make FF look good by comparison.

    Regards...jmcc


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  • #8467
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    jmcc wrote: »
    No. Those are the facts. You've been repeatedly trying to distract people from the facts of what happened. Perhaps you don't want to see Varadkar charged and the fallout that will affect FG and, perhaps, make FF look good by comparison.

    Regards...jmcc

    This post contributes noting. Zip.

    There's the echo rebuttal, but there's also the meta distraction. The two are interconnected.

    'Hey stop distracting. Did you know leo leaked a document. Stop distracting. Leo leaked a document. Why do you keep trying to distract me? Leo leaked a document to a pal. All the time you are trying to distract people from the fact leo leaked a document to a close friend of his.'

    Back what feels like a hundred pages ago I called this white noise. Clearly it is meant to avoid discussion, or deep analysis.

    I say 'What did NAGP stand to gain?'
    'Stop distracting. Leo leaked a document'

    Over and over again. Anytime the discussion gets difficult you veer away from it, dragging up old points, going back in circles, bringing the conversation back 5 months.

    And it's not just you. It's most of your side in the debate (well not really debate 'he apologized. He leaked a document to a pal. Close friend. Very close friend. His house. Pal. Leaked. Leo. Document. Pal. Leaked'

    Well if you are not prepared to actually debate the matter, then I suppose that is adieu for now.


  • #8468
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    skimpydoo wrote: »
    That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

    It's more like wishful thinking, or it'd be the best thing he could ever do for the country.

    For that latter reason alone it couldn't be real!


  • #8469
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    This post contributes noting. Zip.
    As usual, your post is just pompous verbosity that seeks to distract people from the facts. Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail. This action is now the subject of a criminal investigation.

    You may want to relive your glory days of secondary school debating but this is a very serious issue for Varadkar, O'Tuathail and FG.

    *plonk*

    Regards...jmcc


  • #8470
    Jim Root
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 487 ✭✭Jim Root


    It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going


  • #8471
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jim Root wrote: »
    It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going

    Lot of emotional effort and time has gone into it,
    Jim. The long hours and the hard slog. Time will tell, but I get the feeling they are going to be disappointed.


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  • #8472
    Nobotty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Nobotty


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Lot of emotional effort and time has gone into it,
    Jim. The long hours and the hard slog. Time will tell, but I get the feeling they are going to be disappointed.

    Well one side will be
    The other will be going hahaha
    This thread is just another tit for tat playground


  • #8473
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    McMurphy wrote: »
    A win for Fine Gael..... Wouldn't a certain act apply there if that's the case?


    IMG-20210401-065817.jpg

    That's exactly what Varadkar was at.


  • #8474
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sad to see Leo quitting politics and returning to medicine in the US with his partner. I wish him well anyway.

    I'm not sure he will escape extradition.


  • #8475
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Jim Root wrote: »
    It’s remarkable even by boards standards that this thread is still going

    We get lads constantly denying the facts. Mind it can be entertaining. My favourite was 'what's confidential?' and the idea Leo was doing it for the common good :D


  • #8476
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    James Brown wrote: »
    That's exactly what Varadkar was at.


    The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

    There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

    Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

    Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

    Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.


  • #8477
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    What did NAGP stand to gain?
    jmcc wrote: »
    Varadkar leaked a confidential document to his friend O'Tuathail.

    Why do you keep saying that
    jmcc wrote: »
    As usual, your post is just pompous verbosity that seeks to distract people from the facts.

    Are you going to discuss this?
    jmcc wrote: »
    You may want to relive your glory days of secondary school debating but this is a very serious issue for Varadkar, O'Tuathail and FG.


  • #8478
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    skimpydoo wrote: »
    That has to be an April Fools joke and not a good one either.

    SOHBP!


  • #8479
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

    There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

    Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

    Then the argument is that because NAGP suddenly were won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

    Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.

    We can only go on the evidence. There's the 'means' issue and the whatsapp conversation, where at least to me it's obvious what the motivation was.
    Of course that's for the Garda to officially deduce.

    I've little interest and put even less weight into any theories outside of that.

    Yes, you are creating theories and adding surmising and then knocking it as 'horse manure'. Fair enough. I wouldn't bother.


  • #8480
    Nobotty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Nobotty


    James Brown wrote: »
    That's exactly what Varadkar was at.

    In your opinion
    Conjecture isnt enough for a crime especially from political oponents
    Its not enough to demonstrate that he wanted to look good for getting the contract over the line with all gps not just IMO gp's
    Not by a shot longer than from here to Australia
    Repeating a party line over and over in the face of a more benign and plausible explanation from Vradakar himself is chocolate tea pot territory to me
    There are more worthy issues to drive nails with
    But hey ho,like the funerals obsession on tbe other thread,I've no powers to get people to switch tack
    Tit for Tat


  • #8481
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    SOHBP!
    ??


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  • #8482
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    What did NAGP stand to gain?

    Are you seriously going to say you aren't aware zero craic said
    he wanted to “destroy” the IMO and to take “the wind out of their sails”

    :confused:


  • #8483
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    James Brown wrote: »
    Yes, you are creating theories

    Nope. The theory from your side is exactly as I set out.

    James Brown wrote: »
    I believe he did it to try avoid any loss of support for himself and FG. Why else would he leak a confidential document?
    jmcc wrote: »
    Go read the Heydon letter. It has been linked on the thread. The letter outlined the effect of NAGP members campaigning against FG in elections.
    McMurphy wrote: »
    this followed after OTuathail [sic] made his threat about standing against fg candidates, and placing anti fg propaganda in GPs surgeries if they didn't get the information they wanted.
    jmcc wrote: »
    The threat followed by the leak of the confidential document is the problem for Varadkar and FG.
    jmcc wrote: »
    Yep. The NAGP/Heydon letter is the actually the most damaging aspect
    jmcc wrote: »
    NAGP sends a letter to FG TDs which mentions NAGP members campaigning against FG in election.
    James Brown wrote: »
    From the published back and forth it reads to me that Varadkar slipped his pal the document because Zero craic suggested he'd be unpopular with the membership if he didn't.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Minister gives a confidential document.
    It is claimed he received political advantage in return.
    Letters and correspondence are entered as evidence of same.




    The theory collapses under the slightest weight.

    James Brown wrote: »
    and adding surmising and then knocking it as 'horse manure'. Fair enough.

    I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of motives outside of what has been presented, but as you say yourself, there isn't any evidence to go on.

    I knock it as horse manure because it has been presented as conclusive, despite the fact that it is logically inconsistent, and contradicted by actual, observable events.


  • #8484
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    RandomName2 wrote: »

    The theory collapses under the slightest weight.

    I'm probably not the only one that seems to have missed your examples of how it does.


  • #8485
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    McMurphy wrote: »
    I'm probably not the only one that seems to have missed your examples of how it does.

    The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

    There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister, that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

    Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

    Then the argument is that because NAGP were suddenly won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

    Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.
    McMurphy wrote: »
    :confused:

    You mean that NAGP would write attack pieces about the IMO and the government, as they had been doing until then, and continued to do?

    There was no consideration given to mending the relations between the IMO and NAGP, which seemed to have been soured beyond repair. Whether GPs would actively sign up to the agreement seem to have been still up in the air though.


  • #8486
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Nobotty wrote: »
    In your opinion
    Conjecture isnt enough for a crime especially from political oponents
    Its not enough to demonstrate that he wanted to look good for getting the contract over the line with all gps not just IMO gp's
    Not by a shot longer than from here to Australia
    Repeating a party line over and over in the face of a more benign and plausible explanation from Vradakar himself is chocolate tea pot territory to me
    There are more worthy issues to drive nails with
    But hey ho,like the *funerals obsession on tbe other thread,I've no powers to get people to switch tack
    Tit for Tat

    That's what we generally post here.
    I don't know if what he did was a crime.
    My explanation for me is the most plausible considering the conversation they had prior to the leak.
    I've no party line. It's really freeing.
    I think a then Taoiseach leaking a confidential government negotiation document to a rival union headed by his pal is a big deal.

    *Tit for tat would require excusing one while criticising the other surely?


  • #8487
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The thing is they can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.
    .

    For the umpteenth time. There's no need to.

    2. The Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018 (the Corruption Act)

    The Corruption Act provides in Section 7:
    2) an Irish official who uses confidential information obtained in the course of his or her office, employment, position or business for the purpose of corruptly obtaining a gift, consideration or advantage for himself or herself or for any other person shall be guilty of an offence.
    An offence in this context requires:

    This has been covered already.
    B. in either instance it depends on [obtaining an advantage for another person [O Tuathail]. The reaction of the NAGP “inner sanctum” shows they clearly knew they were getting an advantage

    And
    Again the inept Fine Gael statement misses the point. The advantage in this case was more likely for O Tuathail not Varadkar. Though there was also an actionable advantage for Varadkar. These have been described.

    Don't be getting too hung up on Varadkar, and Varadkar alone.

    The secrets act is a seperate issue from this one btw.


  • #8488
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Nope. The theory from your side is exactly as I set out.

    God bless you. Outside of FG land there are people with their own thoughts and opinions. This isn't 1984. Outside of FG people can be individuals. It suits FG to believe any criticism is from a single hive mind. It's delusional.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I knock it as horse manure because it has been presented as conclusive, despite the fact that it is logically inconsistent, and contradicted by actual, observable events.

    I read it as you picking threads and knitting a geansaí out of it, then criticising the geansaí.


  • #8489
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    McMurphy wrote: »
    advantage for himself

    The thing is you can't determine any advantage for Varadkar.

    There is a labyrinthine argument that Goodey made several threats to a Fine Gael minister that the NAGP would be hostile to the government (NAGP apparently liked repeating themselves too) if Fine Gael didn't stop excluding NAGP from negotiations form several different things. Fine Gael apparently didn't give a shíte about this as they kept excluding them from those negotiations.

    Then the argument is that Varadkar was so petrified of Goodey's threat that he wanted to avoid the GPs giving opinion pieces on the radio (no joke, actually part of the threat) that he.. didn't accede to any of the demands but instead gave the draft GP agreement that had been concluded without NAGP to Goodey to O'Thuanthail.

    Then the argument is that because NAGP were suddenly won over by the government (no evidence of this) that they didn't say anything negative about the government (they did) thereby giving Fine Gael a boost in the polls, thereby personally benefiting Varadkar.

    Well if that isn't one giant heap of horse manure right there.

    I would apologize for reposting, but your side has perfected the art of saying the same thing over, and over again.

    James Brown wrote: »
    God bless you.

    Well thank you.
    James Brown wrote: »
    I read it as you picking threads and knitting a geansaí out of it, then criticising the geansaí.

    It's your jumper, man. You're wearing it. Don't be complaining about how ghastly the pattern is when it is one of your choosing.


  • #8490
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    ..
    It's your jumper, man. You're wearing it. Don't be complaining about how ghastly the pattern is when it is one of your choosing.

    It's not. I've laid out my opinion and given reasoning. The 'horse manure' is all you.


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  • #8491
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    James Brown wrote: »
    It's not. I've laid out my opinion and given reasoning. The 'horse manure' is all you.

    Here's the quotes again.

    James Brown wrote: »
    I believe he did it to try avoid any loss of support for himself and FG. Why else would he leak a confidential document?
    jmcc wrote: »
    Go read the Heydon letter. It has been linked on the thread. The letter outlined the effect of NAGP members campaigning against FG in elections.
    McMurphy wrote: »
    this followed after OTuathail [sic] made his threat about standing against fg candidates, and placing anti fg propaganda in GPs surgeries if they didn't get the information they wanted.
    jmcc wrote: »
    The threat followed by the leak of the confidential document is the problem for Varadkar and FG.
    jmcc wrote: »
    Yep. The NAGP/Heydon letter is the actually the most damaging aspect
    jmcc wrote: »
    NAGP sends a letter to FG TDs which mentions NAGP members campaigning against FG in election.
    James Brown wrote: »
    From the published back and forth it reads to me that Varadkar slipped his pal the document because Zero craic suggested he'd be unpopular with the membership if he didn't.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Minister gives a confidential document.
    It is claimed he received political advantage in return.
    Letters and correspondence are entered as evidence of same.


    So please don't insult my intelligence and suggest that the theory from your side is not explicitly that this hangs upon it being corruption predicated on it providing political advantage to Varadkar, with the sole evidence used to support this argument being Goodey's letter.

    You can't advance an argument and then back away from it pretending you never had anything to do with it.


This discussion has been closed.
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