2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 02:42PM

Billythekid19 wrote: »

Nobody needs to save anymore for a new build. The governement is giving 30k in deposit for FTB's so not sure why people complain about affordability.

I think they still need their own 10% up , I could be wrong?

yagan · 31-03-2021 02:44PM

fliball123 wrote: »

OK are we comparing to 08 again

So now the self employed are entitled to social welfare
We have one of the most lucrative social welfare entitlements on the globe
So who are the workers being thrown under the bus this time and why would they leave such generous social welfare entitlements. This has all come about because of COVID is there any country on earth that has not been impacted by COVID? So where will they be going that is going to offer what Ireland offer in the way of welfare?

Where's the generous entitlements for Irish meat factory workers with no PPS number, no sick pay and wages paid via agencies outside of Ireland?

And people wonder why they've been the centre of covid outbreaks.

Billythekid19 · 31-03-2021 02:44PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I think they still need their own 10% up , I could be wrong?

Nope a buyer needs to stump up 10%, and the bank will give them 90%.
Developers will accept the 30k htb grand as a deposit

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 02:45PM

yagan wrote: »

Where's the generous entitlements for Irish meat factory workers with no PPS number, no sick pay and wages paid via agencies outside of Ireland?

And people wonder why they've been the centre of covid outbreaks.

Well not to sound nasty but if they are not entitled to work here legally or they dont pay tax here then why should they get anything?

cnocbui · 31-03-2021 02:45PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

One of these things is not like the other.

"I think people will have the option to move out of Dublin in future" and "hasn't it occurred to you to just move somewhere cheaper?" are not the same thing.

The deciding factor is work. People need to live where they can work, and it's not altogether clear how that looks yet, so all this remains hypothetical. We're talking about a near future market here, not an existing one.

Discussing possibilities offered by the prospect of WFH - which I've been talking about since being involved in my company's rollout, roughly around this time last year - isn't remotely the same as scolding people for not having already done the things people have very patiently explained to you have not been viable options for some time, based on your misunderstanding of the modern market.

What do you suggest to that nurse? What apartments did you mean in Limerick? How much do you think a phone upgrade costs? How do you propose people get BOI, AIB and KBC'S internal risk appetite guidelines changed so they can get mortgages for derelicts?

The nurse: There are somwhere around 92 job vacancies in that field in or near Limerick. Is there a salary loading for Dublin or would a nurse be paid the same for doing the same at, say, Limerick rgional?

My example of an apartment for €70 K existed in Oct and I provided the link and proof. Now it probably went for a bit more, but the gist of the property is cheaper outside of Dublin argument still stands: https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/limerick?salePrice_to=125000

That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 02:46PM

Billythekid19 wrote: »

Nope a buyer needs to stump up 10%, and the bank will give them 90%.
Developers will accept the 30k htb grand as a deposit

wow didnt know that ..thats mad if it is true as thats now going back to 100% mortgages with the buyer having no skin in the game.

PropQueries · 31-03-2021 02:48PM

fliball123 wrote: »

haha lets see how that plays out ..Genius really its been 3 months and already they are feeling the effects of Brexit and this will not be noticed until covid is gone. Auld Boris can blame Covid but once Covid is gone what will he blame.. and already there is a lot of talk of there being a 4th wave in the UK ..nothing is certain except that your doomsday scenario playing in your head if it does play out for Ireland then every other country will be impacted to some degree as well, including the UK

According to the Irish Times on March 12th 2021:

"UK construction companies are actively recruiting Irish workers, sparking fears of a major skills exodus as most building sites remain closed due to Covid-19 restrictions. "

And given that both the UK and USA are now intent on bringing any jobs that were re-located to Ireland over the past 20 years for tax purposes back to their home countries, there will be plenty of jobs on offer in the UK for any Irish person who loses his job here IMO

Only problem will be that I will be picking up the tab (as I'm too old to leave) through higher property, income, pension taxes etc. for the mismanagement of our tax revenues over the past 5 years IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/british-recruitment-drive-for-builders-sparks-fear-of-exodus-1.4508053

Billythekid19 · 31-03-2021 02:49PM

fliball123 wrote: »

wow didnt know that ..thats mad if it is true as thats now going back to 100% mortgages with the buyer having no skin in the game.

Yeah it has played a part in prices rising in the last 12 months.
Ive heard of new build phases being sold out on the day of their release.
Its very unfair on second time buyers that want to purchase a new build

Sue de Nimes · 31-03-2021 02:53PM

New builds are sold at prices on the assumption people avail of these schemes. Which makes them less affordable for people who can't avail of them.

I'm returning to Ireland from the UK and I can't avail of any incentives as I haven't been working in Ireland.

yagan · 31-03-2021 02:53PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well not to sound nasty but if they are not entitled to work here legally or they dont pay tax here then why should they get anything?

That's the problem, they are. But it's us who've allowed their conditions to be tolerated. It's Irish society that's turned a blind eye to industries that have been long reliant on non Irish to fill.

Could you imagine those conditions be tolerated in any sector where mostly Irish work?

I reckon in the coming years there'll be many Irish names brought down by how they treated their imported agency staff. We know it's happening like we knew planning was bent before Gilmartin lifted the lid.

awec · 31-03-2021 02:54PM

fliball123 wrote: »

wow didnt know that ..thats mad if it is true as thats now going back to 100% mortgages with the buyer having no skin in the game.

It's not a 100% mortgage. There's a big difference between 90% + 10% HTB and a 100% mortgage.

The problem with 100% mortgages was not "skin in the game", it was that you could end up in negative equity with even the slightest dip in values.

Buyers getting their full 10% via HTB are just as insulated from this as those saving the 10% themselves.

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 02:54PM

PropQueries wrote: »

According to the Irish Times on March 12th 2021:

"UK construction companies are actively recruiting Irish workers, sparking fears of a major skills exodus as most building sites remain closed due to Covid-19 restrictions. "

And given that both the UK and USA are now intent on bringing any jobs that were re-located to Ireland over the past 20 years for tax purposes back to their home countries, there will be plenty of jobs on offer in the UK for any Irish person who loses his job here IMO

Only problem will be that I will be picking up the tab (as I'm too old to leave) through higher property, income, pension taxes etc. for the mismanagement of our tax revenues over the past 5 years IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/british-recruitment-drive-for-builders-sparks-fear-of-exodus-1.4508053

Good for them and anyone going to the UK thats fair enough they have been slow to reopen construction but I think caution was the right way to go I mean what happens if the 4th wave hits the UK hard and construction has to close back down over there. As for you theory of jobs going to the US and UK when/if the jobs start going back to the US and the UK then I might start worrying but its like the boy who cried wolf at this stage it has been talked about for 10/15 years and it has not happened and your never too old to leave. Also just to be sure our taxes have been mismanaged for more than 2 decades not just the last 5 years the government have made a dogs b0ll0x of it (something we do agree on)

awec · 31-03-2021 02:55PM

Billythekid19 wrote: »

Yeah it has played a part in prices rising in the last 12 months.
Ive heard of new build phases being sold out on the day of their release.
Its very unfair on second time buyers that want to purchase a new build

Unfortunately this has been very common for the last 5-6 years at least.

timmyntc · 31-03-2021 02:55PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Good for them and anyone going to the UK thats fair enough they have been slow to reopen construction but I think caution was the right way to go I amean what happens if the 4th wave hits the UK hard and construction has to close back down over there. As for you theory of jobs going to the US and UK when/if the jobs start going back to the US and the UK then I might start worrying but its like the boy who cried wolf at this stage it has been talked about for 10/15 years and it has not happened and your never too old to leave. Also just to be sure our taxes have been mismanaged for more than 2 decades not just the last 5 years the government have made a dogs b0ll0x of it (something we do agree on)

Has construction closed anywhere other than Ireland? I'm pretty sure the entire sector is deemed essential by most countries (including Ireland until last December)

Mad_maxx · 31-03-2021 02:57PM

Villa05 wrote: »

Daft report showing Galway more expensive than Cork and over 30% more expensive than limerick

Both Cork and limerick average wage higher than Galway

interestingly enough though , rents in Galway are only about 10% more expensive than in Limerick , Galways market has always been the craziest in my opinion

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 02:57PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Has construction closed anywhere other than Ireland? I'm pretty sure the entire sector is deemed essential by most countries (including Ireland until last December)

I think its only social builds that are going on currently I could be wrong? I am certain that a lot of build is going on you can see it on the street not sure if they are breaking the rules or what

Browney7 · 31-03-2021 02:59PM

awec wrote: »

It's not a 100% mortgage. There's a big difference between 90% + 10% HTB and a 100% mortgage.

The problem with 100% mortgages was not "skin in the game", it was that you could end up in negative equity with even the slightest dip in values.

Buyers getting their full 10% via HTB are just as insulated from this as those saving the 10% themselves.

It's not quite the same as a 90% mortgage on a second hand house though in a mature estate. If you're selling a "new build" after two years (very few will need to do this!) for example and a new phase is for sale down the road from your new build that is a few years old, a FTB will get a 10% refund to buy the house down the road and none for yours. But correct that it's the same as a 100% mortgage

jill_valentine · 31-03-2021 03:00PM

Sorry, had brain failure there for a second - HTB can be accepted as a chunk of your deposit, but realistically you do need to have a sizeable amount amassed yourself. As we saw with the bump up in limits, the market already accounts for it, new build prices are inflated in order to eat up your HTB. People who can avail of it are mostly already in a position to buy.

I consider it basically useless to buyers, but as somebody pointed out to me before, it's meant to act as an incentive to builders rather than the actual buyers anyway.

timmyntc · 31-03-2021 03:00PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I think its only social builds that are going on currently I could be wrong? I am certain that a lot of build is going on you can see it on the street not sure if they are breaking the rules or what

Yes in Ireland - but the point is that in the UK and beyond construction never closed and never will despite any number of waves. They recognise (as we should) that construction is essential

awec · 31-03-2021 03:03PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Sorry, had brain failure there for a second - HTB can be accepted as a chunk of your deposit, but you do need to have a sizeable amount amassed yourself. As we saw when the bump up in limits, the market already accounts for it, new build prices are inflated in order to eat up your HTB. People who can avail of it are mostly already in a position to buy.

I consider it basically useless to buyers, but as somebody pointed out to me before, it's meant to act as an incentive to builders rather than the actual buyers anyway.

It is possible to buy without.

HTB can be up to 10% of the house, up to 30k. If you buy a 300k house you could get a HTB rebate of 30k, and there is your 10%.

Of course, this depends on the bank being willing to give you a mortgage with no savings history, but technically it's possible even if very unrealistic.

fliball123 · 31-03-2021 03:03PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Yes in Ireland - but the point is that in the UK and beyond construction never closed and never will despite any number of waves. They recognise (as we should) that construction is essential

OK didnt know that .. cool so our builders have somewhere to go for work you couldnt blame them for relocating permanently or temporarily to work.

Mad_maxx · 31-03-2021 03:05PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

This isn't America.

We have never had a left wing government in the history of the state. Every single government intervention in the property market, which in the past 30 years has always driven up prices, has been implemented by a centre-right party.

the stripe of the sitting minister for housing is irrelevant , the pressure to create rent pressure zones , making it near impossible to shift bad tenants , gave immunity to rogue tenants who wreck properties , made it near impossible for banks to repossess houses from mortgage defaulters .

all policies which came from left wing pressure , beit politicians or media and all which have contributed to a severe lack of supply

SF repeatedly blocking development on Dublin city council is another contributing factor

Hubertj · 31-03-2021 03:05PM

Sue de Nimes wrote: »

New builds are sold at prices on the assumption people avail of these schemes. Which makes them less affordable for people who can't avail of them.

I'm returning to Ireland from the UK and I can't avail of any incentives as I haven't been working in Ireland.

How long will you have to be working in Ireland before you can avail of any available schemes?

jill_valentine · 31-03-2021 03:19PM

awec wrote: »

It is possible to buy without.

HTB can be up to 10% of the house, up to 30k. If you buy a 300k house you could get a HTB rebate of 30k, and there is your 10%.

Of course, this depends on the bank being willing to give you a mortgage with no savings history, but technically it's possible even if very unrealistic.

Sorry, you're right, I was editing for a bit more clarity as you were posting. Too many meetings, not enough tea.

As I say, I consider it useless to buyers and arguably detrimental to the market as a whole. Along with Rebuilding Ireland, I'm not convinced it's actually intended to function apart from giving government speakers a scheme name to mention.

DataDude · 31-03-2021 03:30PM

Hubertj wrote: »

How long will you have to be working in Ireland before you can avail of any available schemes?

Know someone who just moved back and is going through this process so can answer. The HTB is a rebate of taxes paid in the 4 previous years. So you can avail of the full amount once you've paid €30k of income tax (you could go earlier but with smaller rebate). For some that might be 1 year, others it might be the full 4 years that's included.

Minor point but it's done on full year looks. So if you apply in mid 2021, they won't account for any of the tax you've paid during 2021, it'd be 2016-2020.

No idea on the eligibility for the other schemes.

31-03-2021 03:45PM

cnocbui wrote: »

The nurse: There are somwhere around 92 job vacancies in that field in or near Limerick. Is there a salary loading for Dublin or would a nurse be paid the same for doing the same at, say, Limerick rgional?

My example of an apartment for €70 K existed in Oct and I provided the link and proof. Now it probably went for a bit more, but the gist of the property is cheaper outside of Dublin argument still stands: https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/limerick?salePrice_to=125000

That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

You expect front line emergency workers in Dublin to live hundreds of kilometres away from work so they can afford a property?
What about those workers that are in shifts?

You're still ignoring the fact that 20 years ago a house cost 2/3 times a salary, now it costs 10 times the salary.

PommieBast · 31-03-2021 03:50PM

Browney7 wrote: »

He/she was saying that there's a portion of ads on daft purely with the intention of not actually selling the property and just advertising it to keep banks or lawyers happy - ie the property isn't actually for "sale" and there to waste people's time. No idea what % this is

Most definitely. Of all the properties I bid on in 2016 & 2017 I don't think any were sold. This crass behaviour is one of the reasons I exited the market.

Marius34 · 31-03-2021 03:55PM

bubblypop wrote: »

You expect front line emergency workers in Dublin to live hundreds of kilometres away from work so they can afford a property?
What about those workers that are in shifts?

You're still ignoring the fact that 20 years ago a house cost 2/3 times a salary, now it costs 10 times the salary.

what are you comparing here? I think it's apples and pears.

31-03-2021 03:59PM

Marius34 wrote: »

what are you comparing here? I think it's apples and pears.

What do you mean 'apples and pears '?

Yurt2 · 31-03-2021 04:02PM

cnocbui wrote: »

The nurse: There are somwhere around 92 job vacancies in that field in or near Limerick. Is there a salary loading for Dublin or would a nurse be paid the same for doing the same at, say, Limerick rgional?

My example of an apartment for €70 K existed in Oct and I provided the link and proof. Now it probably went for a bit more, but the gist of the property is cheaper outside of Dublin argument still stands: https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/limerick?salePrice_to=125000

That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

You expect the nursing population to up sticks and move for your one mythical 70k one bed in Limerick in a sh*tbox part of the city, where news items would have it, a number of gun murders have taken place?

Cnoc, the sooner you get on the plane to NZ and start bringing this nonsense to Kiwis on boards.nz the better.

*Precisely zero apartments have sold for that kind of money in Limerick since probably the mid 80s.

2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1