Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

Hamachi · 31-03-2021 1:11am

snotboogie wrote: »

You are though. You are conflating an adult living in a different European country for 10 years not being accepted as a national of that country with us "denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity" presumably because we accept non ethnically Irish people born and raised here as one of our own. In reality all Western European countries do the same.

No, I’m not and you’re putting words in my mouth. Where did I state that non-ethnically Irish born people are non-Irish? In fact, I explicitly stated that one such person is clearly Irish.

My point is that’s idiotic to deny that there is a distinct Irish heritage and ethnicity. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on this forum, particularly originating from a poster who identifies himself as a teacher.

snotboogie · 31-03-2021 1:18am

Hamachi wrote: »

No, I’m not and you’re putting words in my mouth. Where did I state that non-ethnically Irish born people are non-Irish? In fact, I explicitly stated that one such person is clearly Irish.

My point is that’s idiotic to deny that there is a distinct Irish heritage and ethnicity. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on this forum, particularly originating from a poster who identifies himself as a teacher.

I am not a teacher and have never identified as one lol

You are conflating the two points though. Germans not accepting someone who moves to Germany as an adult and living there for 10 years as German has nothing at all to do with our "distinct Irish heritage and identity"

Hamachi wrote: »

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

Hamachi · 31-03-2021 1:27am

snotboogie wrote: »

I am not a teacher and have never identified as one lol

You are conflating the two points though. Germans not accepting someone who moves to Germany as an adult and living there for 10 years as German has nothing at all to do with our "distinct Irish heritage and identity"

I wasn’t referring to you as a teacher. Thankfully standards haven’t slipped that much yet. Let’s try this one more time.

My first point was agreeing with another poster that living in a foreign country, doesn’t magically transform you into a native of that country, either in terms of self-identification or in eyes of the locals.

My second point was disagreeing with another poster (the teacher), who rubbished the notion of an Irish heritage and ethnicity.

Two distinct strands of thought that can comfortably co-exist.

KungPao · 31-03-2021 1:34am

My wife is a foreign, non EU. Has the passport and is “Irish”, but she is isn’t really.

If we had a sprog here and raised him here in the ways of the Irishman, he’d be Irish, with some of her heritage, and vice versa if we had the nipper in her country.

But if Xi Xiang and Maria Lopez have a kid here, not really Irish that lad IMO.

Hamachi · 31-03-2021 1:41am

KungPao wrote: »

But if Xi Xiang and Maria Lopez have a kid here, not really Irish that lad IMO.

I get your argument, but I kind of disagree. If the child is born here and grows up here feeling a strong affinity to this country, s/he is Irish by citizenship and is culturally Irish.

However, with the best will in the world, I don’t think it’s possible to claim that the child is ethnically Irish.

ittakestwo · 31-03-2021 1:54am

DerekC16 wrote: »

You don't become Irish by obtaining citizenship, you become a citizen of Ireland. Nationality and citizenship are two different things.

Does not go down well when you tell a unionists in the north they're Irish and only British citizens.

Yurt2 · 31-03-2021 2:12am

All the major English speaking countries have powerful immigrant founding myths. Even the UK had a much more diverse population before the post-WW2 influx of ex empire subjects and has a not insignificant population of Jews / Russians / Poles / Chinese / South Asians and others (never mind the 'natives' being mutts from Danish, Norman, Roman, Jutes, Picts and whatever you're having).

Ireland's founding myth? We're a bit hazy on it, but it's something like we emerged from the celtic mist swinging a hurley with a fire-breathing wolfhound by our side. We were conceived as an ethnostate even though we're fairly mutt-like ourselves.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 31-03-2021 2:24am

Who is ethnically Irish? We're all a mix of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, Scots etc.

gozunda · 31-03-2021 2:37am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Who is ethnically Irish? We're all a mix of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, Scots etc.

That's the thing - there isn't a nation on this planet which historically hasn't been overrun, invaded, immigrated, assimilated at some time or other.

Most European countries have, most African countries have. The New World etc

It remains - a significant majority of the population of most of these countries can be defined as belonging to one or more ethnic group - who trace their full or partial ancestry to a particular country / region and who share elements of identity and culture. For example- The Gambia (one of Africa's smallest countries) recognises no less that 9 different ethnic groups and 23 official languages plus all those of dual or multiple ethnicities.

Strangely It seems to be fairly fashionable to consider any country outside the Far East, Asia and Africa etc as not meeting any criteria for ethnicity by default. It's all a bit odd tbh ..

Nqp15hhu · 31-03-2021 3:48am

If you are born in England you are English.

ittakestwo · 31-03-2021 6:20am

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

If you are born in England you are English.

Funny because yesterday in a different thread you were claiming people born in Ireland are not Irish.

purplepanda · 31-03-2021 6:35am

Irish is a nationality, English is not at present nor since 1707.

My English stepmother always said we Irish kids born with both Irish parents couldn't be English, we were Celtic not Anglo Saxon. Back in the '70's & 80's such as statement was considered uncontroversial & matter of fact. If your parents & your family were Italian, Spanish or Chinese that's what the children were called.

One of the exceptions to the above was Cypriot families, who would just call themselves Greek or Turkish!

Some English people would often try to claim kids of Irish, Scottish or Welsh parents & families as English, resulting in some children saying very confusing ridiculous statements such as, my family is Irish but I'm English! :pac:

Hamsterchops · 31-03-2021 7:02am

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

If you are born in England you are English.

Therefore if you're born in Ireland you're Irish, but what about the ethnicity question that is meant to be the main topic of this thread. Can you be ethnically Irish?

redbedhead · 31-03-2021 7:35am

How far back do you trace your lineage to be considered a Dub?

joe40 · 31-03-2021 8:01am

I think the problem is confusing ethnicity with nationality.
Heritage and national pride is a positive thing. I'm proud to be Irish.
But it can also be mis-used as a way to express dominance or discriminate which is very wrong.

joe40 · 31-03-2021 8:04am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Therefore if you're born in Ireland you're Irish, but what about the ethnicity question that is meant to be the main topic of this thread. Can you be ethnically Irish?

I don't think ethnically Irish is a thing. How far would you have to go back.
Plenty of English and Scots are maybe only 2 generations in the Country but still very much English or Scots

Wibbs · 31-03-2021 8:58am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Who is ethnically Irish? We're all a mix of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, Scots etc.

Well, we are and we're not. The Irish are a pretty homogenous bunch genetically, even compared to our neighbour England. Celts never got here in significant enough numbers to show up in the genes(and even the term "Celts" is a dubious and confusing one). Vikings and Normans are pretty much the same thing with a hint of northern French, Scots are very close to Irish genetics anyway and good luck in finding much Anglo Saxon English genes in the general Irish population.

gozunda wrote: »

Strangely It seems to be fairly fashionable to consider any country outside the Far East, Asia and Africa etc as not meeting any criteria for ethnicity by default. It's all a bit odd tbh ..

A bit odd indeed. It's very much a European and European American viewpoint and a recent enough one too. Few peoples outside this Western viewpoint would have any concern or certainly any discomfort around expressing their ethnicity and ethnic affiliations, or describing another's.

Pherekydes · 31-03-2021 9:05am

A picture paints a thousand words.

Wibbs · 31-03-2021 9:06am

joe40 wrote: »

I don't think ethnically Irish is a thing. How far would you have to go back.

Is ethnically Japanese a thing? Ethnically Persian? Ethnically Native American? Ethnically Congolese? With the exception of the Japanese, the rest would have had more back and forth and mixtures going on in their pasts than the Irish population. Here's an article from the Journal on the genetics of Ireland.

One of ths study's authors says this:

For one, Irish people are, to a large degree, distinctly Irish.

Professor Gianpiero Cavalleri, who helped to devise the study, told TheJournal.ie: “In terms of the genetic diversity for Irish people, there’s actually very little. And the diversity we do see is very subtle.”

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Compare the Irish population to England. More mixing going on in the latter. Our genes can even be narrowed down to provinces(and family names) within Ireland. This notion that we're "mutts" is more than a little spurious. And in any case what's so great about being "mutts" anyway?

Bobblehats · 31-03-2021 9:27am

joe40 · 31-03-2021 9:50am

Wibbs wrote: »

Is ethnically Japanese a thing? Ethnically Persian? Ethnically Native American? Ethnically Congolese? With the exception of the Japanese, the rest would have had more back and forth and mixtures going on in their pasts than the Irish population. Here's an article from the Journal on the genetics of Ireland.

One of ths study's authors says this:

For one, Irish people are, to a large degree, distinctly Irish.

Professor Gianpiero Cavalleri, who helped to devise the study, told TheJournal.ie: “In terms of the genetic diversity for Irish people, there’s actually very little. And the diversity we do see is very subtle.”

Compare the Irish population to England. More mixing going on in the latter. Our genes can even be narrowed down to provinces(and family names) within Ireland. This notion that we're "mutts" is more than a little spurious. And in any case what's so great about being "mutts" anyway?

I haven't read that exact study (thanks for posting) but I am familiar with the idea that the general Irish population have well established genetic lines on this islands.
The idea that we are all descendants from the Celts is not accurate. There is no evidence of a large influx displacing the native population.

That doesn't take away from the fact that there has been considerable mixing. You're right, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Is an Northern Irish protestant, whose ancestors came during the ulster plantation not Irish? He or she may choose to be considered British but if a united Ireland came about, would they be Irish?
The study you posted mentioned Donegal as having close genetic links to Gaelic past, which makes sense, but are they more Irish than the large protestant population in East Donegal.
That is what I mean when I have issues with Irish ethnicity. What does it mean?
If we are going to make a big deal about Irish ethnicity, how many generations do you have to go back to be considered Irish.

I am Irish and I'm proud to be Irish, but if someone is born here and identifies as Irish I'm happy to accept them as Irish. As Irish as I am.

Am I more Irish than Phil Lynott, or Paul McGrath?

The author of the report you published is Irish according to himself. Born to Italian parents but grew up in Spiddal. I'm not going to deny him that.

gozunda · 31-03-2021 10:09am

joe40 wrote: »

I haven't read that exact study (thanks for posting) but I am familiar with the idea that the general Irish population have well established genetic lines on this islands.
The idea that we are all descendants from the Celts is not accurate. There is no evidence of a large influx displacing the native population.

That doesn't take away from the fact that there has been considerable mixing. You're right, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Is an Northern Irish protestant, whose ancestors came during the ulster plantation not Irish? He or she may choose to be considered British but if a united Ireland came about, would they be Irish?
The study you posted mentioned Donegal as having close genetic links to Gaelic past, which makes sense, but are they more Irish than the large protestant population in East Donegal.
That is what I mean when I have issues with Irish ethnicity. What does it mean?
If we are going to make a big deal about Irish ethnicity, how many generations do you have to go back to be considered Irish.

I am Irish and I'm proud to be Irish, but if someone is born here and identifies as Irish I'm happy to accept them as Irish. As Irish as I am.

Am I more Irish than Phil Lynott, or Paul McGrath?

The author of the report you published is Irish according to himself. Born to Italian parents but grew up in Spiddal. I'm not going to deny him that.

The CSO here use ethnicity in its population estimates. Obviously these are self declared. So its respondents assigning an ethnicity to themselves.

From the 2016 census. The defined groups were:

White Irish
White Irish Traveller
Any other white background
Black or black Irish -
African Black or black Irish - Any other black background
Asian or Asian Irish -
Chinese Asian or Asian Irish - Any other Asian background
Other incl mixed background

The largest group in 2016 was “White Irish” with 3,854,226 (82.2%) usual residents. This was followed by “Any other White background” (9.5%), non-Chinese Asian (1.7%) and “Other incl. mixed background” (1.5%).

Irish Travellers (30,987) made up 0.7 per cent of the usually resident population while Chinese (19,447) made up just 0.4 per cent.

Though generally I believe that in the West- declaring ones ethnicity seems to make a lot of people strangely uncomfortable. People from other parts of the world as Wibbs pointed out have no hang ups whatsoever with regard to doing do.

And to that point I've seen people declare that the majority of the population here can't be considered ethnically Irish despite an absolute majority who can trace their full or partial ancestry from here and who all share significant elements of identity and culture.

Wibbs · 31-03-2021 10:16am

joe40 wrote: »

That doesn't take away from the fact that there has been considerable mixing. You're right, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

It's like people read what they want to read and you're reading a different study and reading my posts differently too. It nor me said anything like what you've typed there. That's the point, there hasn't been considerable mixing. The report states this quite clearly. "Very little" genetic diversity in the Irish population and what there is is "very subtle". I literally quoted that part and you took a complete opposite message from it.

Is an Northern Irish protestant, whose ancestors came during the ulster plantation not Irish? He or she may choose to be considered British but if a united Ireland came about, would they be Irish?

A change in law and sovereignty wouldn't change those who considered themselves British. That would be a distinction many of them would almost certainly make, or we wouldn't even be talking about a separate nation up north.

The study you posted mentioned Donegal as having close genetic links to Gaelic past, which makes sense, but are they more Irish than the large protestant population in East Donegal.

More ethnically Irish yes.

That is what I mean when I have issues with Irish ethnicity. What does it mean?
If we are going to make a big deal about Irish ethnicity, how many generations do you have to go back to be considered Irish.

The majority of people living in this country(and the vast majority of same two decades ago) are genetically and ethnically Irish. If you examined the average native Irish persons DNA they would be pretty easily distinguished from say an Italian and certainly very easily distinguished from a Persian or Sudanese or Korean.

I am Irish and I'm proud to be Irish, but if someone is born here and identifies as Irish I'm happy to accept them as Irish. As Irish as I am.

Am I more Irish than Phil Lynott, or Paul McGrath?

More ethnically and genetically Irish, yes you clearly would be.

joe40 · 31-03-2021 11:06am

Wibbs wrote: »

It's like people read what they want to read and you're reading a different study and reading my posts differently too. It nor me said anything like what you've typed there. That's the point, there hasn't been considerable mixing. The report states this quite clearly. "Very little" genetic diversity in the Irish population and what there is is "very subtle". I literally quoted that part and you took a complete opposite message from it.

A change in law and sovereignty wouldn't change those who considered themselves British. That would be a distinction many of them would almost certainly make, or we wouldn't even be talking about a separate nation up north.

More ethnically Irish yes.

The majority of people living in this country(and the vast majority of same two decades ago) are genetically and ethnically Irish. If you examined the average native Irish persons DNA they would be pretty easily distinguished from say an Italian and certainly very easily distinguished from a Persian or Sudanese or Korean.

More ethnically and genetically Irish, yes you clearly would be.

Yes I understand that, the Irish population is genetically relatively unchanged for several 1000 years. But there still has been mixing (I take back the word considerable) so how do you quantify it. Are some people, living here for generations, not as Irish as others.

I find it surprising that you would consider a Donegal Protestant, possibly living here for generations, less Irish based on genetics.

There must be literally hundreds of thousands of English people of Irish descent maybe going back a few generations, are they not really English. Or ethnically English.

Idle Passerby · 31-03-2021 11:13am

Being "ethnically Irish" is what allows thousands of people who've never set foot here to become citizens. There are people holding passports who think we all still live in thatch cottages and spend our days fighting leprechauns for their pot of gold. I don't think having a granny who left long before they were born should be enough to grant citizenship. Someone who has made their life here has far more entitlement in my book.

Riddle101 · 31-03-2021 11:16am

If we were to consider our own heritage. How many Irish people have ancestors who came over to Ireland during the Plantation period and settled over here? Some of us have English, Scottish, and Welsh blood in us. So would we be considered ethnically Irish if we were to guy by the woman in the OP's logic?

She just comes across as ignorant in that video. Being Irish isn't really an ethnicity, it's a nationality, and as far as I'm concerned if you were born over here, raised over here, are an Irish citizen, and consider Ireland your home country then you should be considered Irish. That being said, there's nothing wrong with embracing your heritage either.

Wibbs · 31-03-2021 11:22am

joe40 wrote: »

Yes I understand that, the Irish population is genetically relatively unchanged for several 1000 years. But there still has been mixing (I take back the word considerable) so how do you quantify it. Are some people, living here for generations, not as Irish as others.

I find it surprising that you would consider a Donegal Protestant, possibly living here for generations, less Irish based on genetics.

Well based on genetics they're demonstrably less Irish than the native population. On ethnicity which encompasses other stuff like culture, language, religion, national affiliations etc then yes again they'd be subtly different to the native population. If Travellers who are genetically Irish natives, with some minor quirks down to internal mixing are considered in law and those minor genetic differences a separate ethnicity then Donegal Protestants should be too, if not more so. To say one is and one isn't would be somewhat of a contradiction.

kowloon · 31-03-2021 11:52am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The country is 95% empty over there. They rely on large scale immigration to constantly grow the economy. Apparently the after effects of covid lockdowns which put immigration to a halt is going to affect the Australian economy and society hugely in the long term.

If they really needed the immigrants they could always take some out of their immigrant detention camps. They're picky.

joe40 · 31-03-2021 11:54am

Wibbs wrote: »

Well based on genetics they're demonstrably less Irish than the native population. On ethnicity which encompasses other stuff like culture, language, religion, national affiliations etc then yes again they'd be subtly different to the native population. If Travellers who are genetically Irish natives, with some minor quirks down to internal mixing are considered in law and those minor genetic differences a separate ethnicity then Donegal Protestants should be too, if not more so. To say one is and one isn't would be somewhat of a contradiction.

So Donegal Protestants are not ethnically Irish.

You have just given me a major identity problem...

My father was Donegal Protestant, my Mother other side of the fence, but both Donegal families for generations.

I was brought up catholic, and would consider myself nationalist, I am as ethnically Irish as anyone else on this Island.

Mad_maxx · 31-03-2021 11:59am

of course someone can be ethnically black , asian etc and be irish

i would not consider that nutter Khalid Kelly who turned himself into a bomb and blew himself up a number of years ago to be irish (even though he was white and born here ) as he more or less wanted the place governed under sharia law.

culturally irish can include someone who is not white , if i see someone black or muslim togging out for the local football team , more power to them , if i see a male muslim wearing a dress and his wife wearing a curtain , i dont consider them irish even they were born here and even both are white

Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

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