Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

Idle Passerby

joe40 wrote: »

So Donegal Protestants are not ethnically Irish.

You have just given me a major identity problem...

My father was Donegal Protestant, my Mother other side of the fence, but both Donegal families for generations.

I was brought up catholic, and would consider myself nationalist, I am as ethnically Irish as anyone else on this Island.

Of course your Irish! Denying someone whose family has been here for hundreds of years is sectarian in the extreme. Anyway, your half the right kind of Irish (joke! incase anyone gets offended)

Wibbs

joe40 wrote: »

So Donegal Protestants are not ethnically Irish.

You really do seem to have consistent difficulties with reading what people actually write. That's the third time this thread.

WotIActuallyWrote wrote:

Well based on genetics they're demonstrably less Irish than the native population.On ethnicity which encompasses other stuff like culture, language, religion, national affiliations etc then yes again they'd be subtly different to the native population

Now how you view your ethnicity is your own business but please point out to me where I said Donegal Protestants are not ethnically Irish.

frosty123

The days of seeing irish people as white & catholic exclusively are over ..that whole narrow-minded attitude is beginning to wane (thankfully)

murpho999

Do we not need to forget about ethnicity and look at things from a cultural point of view.

You can be born anywhere to parents from anywhere but depending on the culture and environment you're brought up with is how you identify.

Plenty of Irish people living in UK but living a very "Irish" life with Irish norms and values and there offspring would be brought up Irish, although tecnnically they're British and most likely have British accents.

Also, seen plenty of African families here were there kids sound Irish and know mostly about Irish culture.

I just think we get too hung up on ethnicity and it does more harm than good.

We have moved to a position in society where people's choice as to how they identify their sexuality is their choice and is respected and I think we should do the same with ethnicity and just let people be what they want where ever they are once they're respecting the laws and values of the country they live in.

joe40

Wibbs wrote: »

You really do seem to have consistent difficulties with reading what people actually write. That's the third time this thread.

Now how you view your ethnicity is your own business but please point out to me where I said Donegal Protestants are not ethnically Irish.

This is from a previous post. You were answering my query below.

The study you posted mentioned Donegal as having close genetic links to Gaelic past, which makes sense, but are they more Irish than the large protestant
population in East Donegal.

More ethnically Irish yes

That would imply to me that in your view the Protestant population as less ethnically Irish.

Wibbs

murpho999 wrote: »

I just think we get too hung up on ethnicity and it does more harm than good.

I'd agree with this and it's very much a recent European(with some American influence) thing.

We have moved to a position in society where people's choice as to how they identify their sexuality is their choice and is respected and I think we should do the same with ethnicity and just let people be what they want where ever they are once they're respecting the laws and values of the country they live in.

Which sounds great in theory. Then again I consider the modern European multiculturalist politic taken as the accepted truth and positive to not bear much by way of closer examination. In practice the jury is most certainly still out. Not least for the non native demographics. Never mind that it's always majority White nations that are seen as the ones in dire need of diversity. You'll never see the same people gung ho for multiculturalism suggesting what Japan, or Senegal needs to be better is the diversity of more White Europeans. More Chinese people emigrating to various African countries is usually painted as troubling.

Pherekydes

There are a lot of very detailed answers about ethnicity, but the question is about Irishness.

The question, "Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be ethnically Irish?" is rather trivial, don't you think?

gozunda

This from a a BBC NI learning resource site
on ethnicity and which covers a lot of the issues and misunderstandings.

A common misunderstanding is that ethnic groups are made up of people who are not White.

But a person’s ethnicity is never simply based upon the colour of their skin. Black people, for
example, can be from a Caribbean or African ethnic group. Indeed it would be possible to divide
Black Africans into a whole series of ethnic groups given their various languages, customs,
religious beliefs and national identities. Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis can also come
from different religious and linguistic groups.

Another characteristic of ethnic groups is continuity in time, that is they have a history and
a future as a people. This is achieved through the consistent use of a common language,
institutions and traditions over many generations. It is important to consider these criteria if we
are to distinguish them from a group of individuals who share a common characteristic, such
as ancestry.

It is also important to remember that a person may choose to hold, for example,
a Chinese based ethnic identity even though he/she was born in Northern Ireland and has
characteristics and beliefs similar to the majority of people who live here.
Everyone in Northern Ireland is part of an ethnic group. People who consider themselves to beIrish or British often express signs of dissimilarity in their culture, religious and political beliefs
and many people consider these differences as being ethnically different.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/schools/11_16/citizenship/pdfs/ctz_eth_pg02_tn.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwik8dmrm9rvAhXQSRUIHbQqADUQFjATegQIFRAC&usg=AOvVaw2XEFv0Y1DW0ecrl1Kx9jkY

Wibbs

joe40 wrote: »

This is from a previous post. You were answering my query below.

The study you posted mentioned Donegal as having close genetic links to Gaelic past, which makes sense, but are they more Irish than the large protestant
population in East Donegal.

More ethnically Irish yes

That would imply to me that in your view the Protestant population as less ethnically Irish.

Well clearly by the definitions of ethnicity and genetics they are less ethnically Irish. That is they have some genetic and ethnic differences to the majority Irish population. IE More likely to be a different sect of Christianity, more likely to be politically loyalist, more likely to be from Lowland Scot lines and so on. You apparently read from "less" that they "are not ethnically Irish". That is not what was said.

Wibbs

Pherekydes wrote: »

There are a lot of very detailed answers about ethnicity, but the question is about Irishness.

The question, "Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be ethnically Irish?" is rather trivial, don't you think?

"Irish" is an ethnicity and for many centuries a majority one, with a few smaller ethnicities in the mix, the British/Scots being the largest one. Ditto for population genetics. That's what has made up "Irishness" and has done until very recently. Less than 30 years ago. European ex colonies like in the Americas have a foundation mythos(and myth) based on the notion one could become a "ness" by immigration(and it's not as if their record on inter ethnic and "race" relations is a positive one). European countries don't have nearly that culture around belonging. Consider the birthright Irishness law/loophole that was rejected by a majority of the Irish electorate. That is in play to one degree or other in many European colonies, but in European countries we were one of the only ones that had it for a time, on the back of the GFA. A very different approach to nationality.

joe40

Wibbs wrote: »

Well clearly by the definitions of ethnicity and genetics they are less ethnically Irish. That is they have some genetic and ethnic differences to the majority Irish population. IE More likely to be a different sect of Christianity, more likely to be politically loyalist, more likely to be from Lowland Scot lines and so on. You apparently read from "less" that they "are not ethnically Irish". That is not what was said.

I find it incredible that you would consider my Father's family, who lived and farmed in Donegal for generations to be "less ethnically Irish" than my Mother's family.

Wibbs

At least we're making some progress, in that now you get the "less" part rather than going straight to not Irish at all. Maybe look up the definition of ethnicity next? I've a Protestant line on one side of the family, does this make me less ethnically Irish than someone who doesn't? Yes. Big deal.

ExMachina1000

kowloon wrote: »

If they really needed the immigrants they could always take some out of their immigrant detention camps. They're picky.

They, like Camada and a few others have intelligent immigration policies where they tend to allow only those who are beneficial to society and the economy in.

purplepanda

Ireland historically has very high Indo European DNA going back to the start of the Bronze Age, yet some are still trying to claim that this means that it is not really Celtic, the early IE settlers in Ireland would certainly have spoken a type of language from the IE Centrum group, possibly before the split into Celtic, Germanic & Italic or a maybe a proto version of any or all of these combined.

Calling Ireland a Celtic people, as in the classical accounts of Ancient Greece & Rome maybe not as those Celtic tribes were nearer to Central Europe / North Italy & southern France, although Celtic people did travel long distances.

The historical Irish are certainly related to Gaulish & Belgic tribes from the North Western European coast regions, as historical sources suggest as well as legendary ones.

One DNA research paper I've read suggested that 49% of Irish DNA comes from Northern France from the Iron Age period, that is certainly Gallo - Belgic & an important part of historical Celtic culture, language & peoples.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

of course someone can be ethnically black , asian etc and be irish

i would not consider that nutter Khalid Kelly who turned himself into a bomb and blew himself up a number of years ago to be irish (even though he was white and born here ) as he more or less wanted the place governed under sharia law.

culturally irish can include someone who is not white , if i see someone black or muslim togging out for the local football team , more power to them , if i see a male muslim wearing a dress and his wife wearing a curtain , i dont consider them irish even they were born here and even both are white

So you think being Irish is dependant on someone's religion?

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

At least we're making some progress, in that now you get the "less" part rather than going straight to not Irish at all. Maybe look up the definition of ethnicity next? I've a Protestant line on one side of the family, does this make me less ethnically Irish than someone who doesn't? Yes. Big deal.

well you must ascribe some kind of relevance to it, or you wouldn't find it any more interesting than a tedious discussion about who has the most belly-button fluff.

If there is some way of measuring ethnicity, and people can be given higher or lower values, there must be some way of making a list from the most "ethnically irish" resident, to the least.

That would be absurd, and it's so absurd youd have to doubt the reliability of the underlying notion that someone on an internet forum can say "protestant indicates less ethnically irish", having no regard to anything except someone's forbears' religion, knowing nothing of how people live in their communities. Absolute nonsense of the highest order.

Wibbs

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

well you must ascribe some kind of relevance to it, or you wouldn't find it any more interesting than a tedious discussion about who has the most belly-button fluff.

If there is some way of measuring ethnicity, and people can be given higher or lower values, there must be some way of making a list from the most "ethnically irish" resident, to the least.

That would be absurd, and it's so absurd youd have to doubt the reliability of the underlying notion that someone on an internet forum can say "protestant indicates less ethnically irish", having no regard to anything except someone's forbears' religion, knowing nothing of how people live in their communities. Absolute nonsense of the highest order.

Merely regarding the definition of ethnicity. Simple as that.

And of course there are scales of ethnicities when compared to the whole. Travellers are considered in Irish law to be a different ethnicity based on some tiny genetic differences and differences in culture and lifestyle. Or do you disagree that Travellers are an ethnic group within Ireland? If no, then fine, but if yes, then one can't have it both ways. Irish Protestants and Jews are other ethnic groups within Ireland. Italian and Chinese Irish would be more recent groups. The native population is by far the majority one and the other ethnicities are separated to different degrees from that majority and so makes them less ethnically "Irish" compared to that majority.

Banana Republic 1

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

David Lammy yesterday went on LBC radio and was told he can never be English by caller because he's not ethnically English.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1376522685073735683
The caller said she was English as she was racially Anglo-Saxon, but if you look at the comments below you can see a lot of people agree with her on this. They say he can be British, as that's seen as civic identity but a lot of English people get touchy about Englishness and see it as an historic ethnicity (as do some Welsh, Scots and Irish). I'm born and raised in England myself but because my parents are both Irish I was also told I can't be English.

The debate started because David Lammy didn't like on the census there was no "Black English" or "Asian English" option and that Black or Asian British was only listed.

Can someone born and raised here who has no Irish heritage be considered Irish?

Yes.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I agree, but it's a bit of a catch-22 situation. You can't address discrimination unless you talk about race and ethnicity, because the discrimination is real; but race and ethnicity are completely made-up things and acknowledging them seems to aggravate racial and ethnic tension.

Hmm. The French don’t officially recognise ethnic groups at all. As for discrimination let’s not call for the fallacy that any groups on average success or failure is due to discrimination. In fact unless there are discriminatory laws that’s probably not the case.

joe40

Wibbs wrote: »

At least we're making some progress, in that now you get the "less" part rather than going straight to not Irish at all. Maybe look up the definition of ethnicity next? I've a Protestant line on one side of the family, does this make me less ethnically Irish than someone who doesn't? Yes. Big deal.

I'll ignore the petty jibe.

Having a protestant line in your family does not make you less ethnically Irish.
I agree its not a big deal. However, the idea that you could have two families living in the same area for generations, but one be more ethnically Irish than another is farcical.
Purely on genetics of course there will be less mixing on the west coast. West Donegal is a beautiful spot but it is not a place people went to or immigrated to.to. The opposite happened.
Therefore the gene pool will be less diverse, but they're not more ethnically Irish than a Dublin person with perhaps Anglo Saxon ancestry.

Ethnicity to, some extent comes down to how a person views themselves, it's not purely written in our genes or the dominant religion.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history/2019/02/race-and-ethnicity-explained

Dyr

If you were brought up in Ireland, Irish parent or parents, riased in a community full of Irish people, then you're culturally Irish

Brought up in Ireland, non Irish parents, non Irish community, then you ain't.

Ethnicity is a whole different ball game but culture is where it's at.

Dyr

joe40 wrote: »

Purely on genetics of course there will be less mixing on the west coast. West Donegal is a beautiful spot but it is not a place people went to or immigrated to.to. The opposite happened.
Therefore the gene pool will be less diverse, but they're not more ethnically Irish than a Dublin person with perhaps Anglo Saxon ancestry.

Ethnicity to, some extent comes down to how a person views themselves, it's not purely written in our genes or the dominant religion.

No coincidence that the places in the west with the least diverse gene pool are also the places where Irish culture and language was preserved. So yeah, more Irish than us Dubs in many ways.

Banana Republic 1

Bambi wrote: »

If you were brought up in Ireland, Irish parent or parents, riased in a community full of Irish people, then you're culturally Irish

Brought up in Ireland, non Irish parents, non Irish community, then you ain't.

Ethnicity is a whole different ball game but culture is where it's at.

Was Wolfe Tone not Irish then

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Was Wolfe Tone not Irish then

Or Lord Palmerston the second Irish Prime Minister of Britain after Lord Shelburne, the first.

Wibbs

joe40 wrote: »

I'll ignore the petty jibe.

It wasn't a jibe, merely pointing out that you completely misread one of my posts and half read others.

Having a protestant line in your family does not make you less ethnically Irish.
I agree its not a big deal. However, the idea that you could have two families living in the same area for generations, but one be more ethnically Irish than another is farcical.
Purely on genetics of course there will be less mixing on the west coast. West Donegal is a beautiful spot but it is not a place people went to or immigrated to.to. The opposite happened.
Therefore the gene pool will be less diverse, but they're not more ethnically Irish than a Dublin person with perhaps Anglo Saxon ancestry.

If we take the background majority population who are Iron age Europeans with some later admixture from Scandinavia with local genetic "tweaks" as time went on with a common language, culture and later religion, A Dubliner with more recent Anglo Saxon ancestry is less genetically "Irish". Culturally is another matter of course.

Ethnicity to, some extent comes down to how a person views themselves, it's not purely written in our genes or the dominant religion.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history/2019/02/race-and-ethnicity-explained

There are a few problems with that article. They link their own internal articles as citations, even throwing in an opinion piece from the Guardian on home DNA kits from commercial companies. And is just as much a case of an understandably and welcome more progressive cultural angle to how human diversity works and very much from an American cultural viewpoint. Just as much as the outdated concept of "race" was a Western viewpoint before it. So "Genetic tests cannot be used to verify or determine race or ethnicity". Certainly not ethnicity, but it could narrow it down to some degree, nor "race" in the old fashioned clumsy definition of it, but it can show populations within the human family with some fuzziness on the edges. Even if one were to concentrate on just one genetic marker to the exclusion of all the others painting in very broad strokes you see regional trends. Trends that can show historical nations and empires and their reach.



If someone has the J1 marker the chances of them being native Swedes is very slim. And that's just one marker.

Potatoeman

Ethnicity is where your genes come from so if your ancestors migrated from Scotland then you would be less genetically Irish than someone who’s ancestors only come from Ireland. You can still call yourself Irish but would get a different genealogy result because of where your ancestors are from. You don’t need to consider this some kind of pure blood agenda, you can still call yourself Irish. It’s just how genealogy works.

Chips Lovell

Tying religion to notions of racial purity is b***ix.

I know one person whose grandfather was English. Because a.) their grandfather was Catholic (meaning they too were born Catholic) and b.) their surname isn't particularly English sounding, nobody has ever questioned their Irishness.

I know another person who is Church of Ireland. Their family has lived in the same area for as long as anyone can go back, hundreds of years. Yet people still ask them where their family is "originally" from.

frosty123

"you don't have to be irish to be irish"

Prize for the first one who can name the movie that gibberish comes from

donalsim

donalsim wrote: »

I personally believe where you are born is who you are.

What if you are born somewhere but never lived there?
What about children born in Ireland to foreign parents?
What about people born in countries who do not allow them to become citizens?

frosty123

donalsim wrote: »

I personally believe where you are born is who you are.

Sure if that's the case half the irish football & rugby teams aren't irish....oh hang on!