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Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

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  • #992
    Clegg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,745 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

    A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

    Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.


  • #993
    wittycynic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Ruddock is a better 6, there's a rake of better 7s and 8s. Hardly a controversial opinion.

    None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.


  • #994
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,099 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Clegg wrote: »
    I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

    A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

    Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.

    Most good teams have figured out Stander. He rarely has the impact he probably ouught to have, given his propensity to seek contact.


  • #995
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,099 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    wittycynic wrote: »
    None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

    Good thing there's plenty of matches to watch them in to gauge for oneself then, including many head to head.


  • #996
    Annalise Proud Cow
    Posts: 13,106 ✭ Annalise Proud Cow


    wittycynic wrote: »
    None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

    The Lions tour was 4 years ago. What would Leinster do with him now?


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  • #997
    wittycynic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »
    The Lions tour was 4 years ago. What would Leinster do with him now?

    Just pointing out that every professional coach who has ever had to determine between them, including Farrell in the recent six nations, has believed O'Mahony to be the better choice. Surely that says something?

    Ruddock is a fine player, but the only people who seem think he's better than O'Mahony on the whole are Leinster fans.


  • #998
    Annalise Proud Cow
    Posts: 13,106 ✭ Annalise Proud Cow


    wittycynic wrote: »
    Just pointing out that every professional coach who has ever had to determine between them, including Farrell in the recent six nations, has believed O'Mahony to be the better choice. Surely that says something?

    Ruddock is a fine player, but the only people who seem think he's better than O'Mahony on the whole are Leinster fans.

    Imagine it's a Euro final and Leinster have all of Doris, Conan, VdF, Leavy, Connors, Ruddock and POM fit and firing. Who do you reckon makes the 23?


  • #999
    yosser hughes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    wittycynic wrote: »
    POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

    He makes the Ireland 23 because he had a contract. Why the contract was renewed is a mystery to me and the majority of rugby fans.
    I like POM and i admire a lot about him but he didn't deserve a new contract


  • #1000
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,180 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    yosser hughes wrote: »
    He makes the Ireland 23 because he has a contract.

    Well that's a lie


  • #1001
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    wittycynic wrote: »
    None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

    This is true, and its a good point. I've never understood how Munster has effectively owne 2 of the backrow positions through a period where Leinster utterly dominated them head to head. The front 5 superiority can't be underestimated, so maybe that, plus superior coaching, first 15 and strength in depth has had an impact too.


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  • #1002
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    Clegg wrote: »
    I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

    A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

    Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.

    Leinster figured out stander years ago. Nearly always pick toner against munster to deal with him.


  • #1003
    wittycynic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    This is true, and its a good point. I've never understood how Munster has effectively owne 2 of the backrow positions through a period where Leinster utterly dominated them head to head. The front 5 superiority can't be underestimated, so maybe that, plus superior coaching, first 15 and strength in depth has had an impact too.

    Leinster have on the whole had a substantially better 23 and squad depth for over a decade now. There's a sizeable gulf in class between the front 5 as you say, notwithstanding the fact that I think Beirne and Kilcoyne would feature in a Leinster 23 if available. Tight head and Hooker are particular problem areas where Munster doesn't have a single player of that is even European cup standard, let alone international standard. There's no solid option for the club at loosehead beyond Kilcoyne, and things are fairly threadbare in second row. Beirne is excellent, and Kleyn is decent but ideally you would want another two strong options (of course munster should have had Snyman this year, but that's another story).


  • #1004
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    Leinster figured out stander years ago. Nearly always pick toner against munster to deal with him.

    To be fair, Toner has been picked fairly consistently over the last number of years for every big game, regardless of who they were playing against. He was a Leinster and Ireland starter, year in, year out. The idea that Toner is picked to counter CJ is difficult to comprehend, he'd have been picked anyway and you'd imagine that the backrow selection would in principal be more influenced by the opposition backrow, than the 2nd row selection.


  • #1005
    VayNiice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭VayNiice


    wittycynic wrote: »
    None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

    Well Ruddock was only 22 in Kidneys last year in charge of Ireland and Ferris was Kidneys first choice at 6 during that time.

    Ruddock completely outplayed POM yesterday.


  • #1006
    wittycynic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    VayNiice wrote: »
    Well Ruddock was only 22 in Kidneys last year in charge of Ireland and Ferris was Kidneys first choice at 6 during that time.

    Ruddock completely outplayed POM yesterday.

    O'Mahony is only 10 months older than Ruddock. Both were in Ireland's 2012 six nations squad, a tournament where O'Mahony got 4 caps and Ruddock got none. That was Kidney's second last six nations.

    Ruddock played better than POM yesterday, but no one judges a player's ability off a single game. The point stands that no Irish or lions coach has ever appeared to think that Ruddock was or is the better of the two, and there's a reason for that. Yesterday on its own, won't put Ruddock ahead of POM in any coach's pecking order.


  • #1007
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Kilcoyne is better than Ed Byrne. Come on now.
    Coombes would make the 23 also on the basis of yesterday. Some missed tackles but an excellent ball carrying performance.

    I get that Munster's pack was comprehensively outplayed but let's not go crazy.

    The hype around Coombes is a bit of the top from my point of view. The Pro14 website done a comparison with Penny and to be honest Penny is ahead.

    Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?


  • #1008
    stephen_n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    sebdavis wrote: »
    The hype around Coombes is a bit of the top from my point of view. The Pro14 website done a comparison with Penny and to be honest Penny is ahead.

    Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

    You can’t regally make that comparison until Penny plays in Europe and in games like last night. Coombes at this stage has played in far bigger games and looked comfortable. That’s not saying Penny won’t but you can’t compare stats from utterly dominant Leinster performances. Coombes looked good last night in a beaten pack.


  • #1009
    VayNiice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭VayNiice


    wittycynic wrote: »
    O'Mahony is only 10 months older than Ruddock. Both were in Ireland's 2012 six nations squad, a tournament where O'Mahony got 4 caps and Ruddock got none. That was Kidney's second last six nations.

    Ruddock played better than POM yesterday, but no one judges a player's ability off a single game. The point stands that no Irish or lions coach has ever appeared to think that Ruddock was or is the better of the two, and there's a reason for that. Yesterday on its own, won't put Ruddock ahead of POM in any coach's pecking order.

    Well I'd argue Ruddock has been better than POM for the past couple of years but that's just my opinion. POM must be producing some serious magic in training because he's been poor for much of the past 2 years


  • #1010
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,099 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Ruddock also got cursed by the same gypsy that did in Fitzgerald and Ferris. I've lost count of the number of times he's managed to get injured right before the international window after being in great form. Practically a meme in its own right.


  • #1011
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Coombes is going to continue to get a lot more games than Penney, considering he'll be in the starting back row for big games. Penney has a fair bit of competition with Josh and Connors ahead at the moment.


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  • #1012
    theVersatile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    sebdavis wrote: »
    Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

    Probably about three times the amount of hype beginning from the moment he played Junior Cup
    Sig.png


  • #1013
    almostover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,425 ✭✭✭almostover


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Coombes is going to continue to get a lot more games than Penney, considering he'll be in the starting back row for big games. Penney has a fair bit of competition with Josh and Connors ahead at the moment.

    Size matters in international rugby too.

    Penny: 6'0" and 16st
    Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

    Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

    Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.


  • #1014
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
    Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
    Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.


  • #1015
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
    Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
    Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.

    Leinster butchered a few opportunities and Munster never looked close to scoring. 16-6 wasn't a reflection of the game.


  • #1016
    Mimon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Mimon


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
    Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
    Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.

    Did you actually watch the game? Have you looked at any of the stats of the game?


  • #1017
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    almostover wrote: »
    Size matters in international rugby too.

    Penny: 6'0" and 16st
    Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

    Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

    Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.

    Penney is a 7, out and out. I understood Coombes was more an 8 than a 6, ideally. He has a way to go to compete there against Conan and Doris.

    Not sure Ruddock will become a challenger for the 6 jersey for Ireland, he hasn't been to date.

    Beirne might have something to say about your list, and a number of others including Deegan, Baird, Leavy if he can stay fit, from Leinster, nd probably a few others from elsewhere.


  • #1018
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    Sounds like a pretty close match to me

    Yeah it does sound close if you just look at the score. But you should really watch it.


  • #1019
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Penney is a 7, out and out.

    The thing about Penney is that while he is definitely a 7, that performance at 8 shows he's probably more than capable of playing across the back row already, a really strong candidate for the 20 jersey in European games in the very near future imo


  • #1020
    phily2002
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 741 ✭✭✭phily2002


    almostover wrote: »
    Size matters in international rugby too.

    Penny: 6'0" and 16st
    Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

    Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

    Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.

    We are in a great position for back rows. At 7 VDF and Connors are in great form with Penny hopefully getting a look in the near future. We have lots of 6/8 options with Ruddock, Conan, Doris and Beirne with Coombes like Penny hopefully getting a look soon as well.
    Strength in depth is great.


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  • #1021
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The thing about Penney is that while he is definitely a 7, that performance at 8 shows he's probably more than capable of playing across the back row already, a really strong candidate for the 20 jersey in European games in the very near future imo

    He'd be a bit of a short arse for an 8, no? I suppose that could be mitigated by the other back row selected.


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