Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

shootermacg

prawnsambo wrote: »

Whatever is was, it wasn't a red card, so probably of no real consequence to the result. Even a yellow probably wouldn't have made much difference.

Yeah he nearly bust the guys nose, sure no foul at all. What a joke of a decision. What did the ref say? A passive tackle, that's up there with a golden goose.

molloyjh

The individual initiating the contact is important. In this case it wasn't Porter. He stayed where he was and didn't move forward. He isn't obliged to get out of Kleyns way. He is obliged to ensure that if he is going to initiate contact with Kleyn that he do so in a safe manner. If he isn't initiating contact then there is no foul play. Otherwise, as has already been said, ball carriers could buy penalties and cards left and right by running head first into the nearest defender. There needs to be common sense here. And it was applied in this case.

almostover

Tough watching for this Munster fan today. Leinster left a few tries out there too through bad passing. Thought the game would be over by HT but a decent final 10 mins of the first half put us going in level. Couldn't make any head way in the 2nd half and Leinster defended us very comfortably all game. If we were still out there we wouldn't have scored a try.

Management team hasn't brought his team on at all really. We haven't progressed past the semis of the champions Cup and we haven't had any joy v Leinster, especially when it matters. Those are the benchmarks for improvement. It hasn't come from JvG.

Leinsters tight 5 did a number on us today. That's where the game was lost. John Ryan has gone backwards under JvG. He was winning Ireland caps a few years back. Archer is a great pro but when the Leinster tightheads are Porter and Furlong we are up against it. Those 2 guys could be the no.1 and 2 tightheads for the Lions. Kelleher excellent too at hooker. Very dynamic. Throwing was better too today. Looks a future 50+ capper for Ireland if he keeps his lineouts tidy. Kleyn was good for us today in the tight and has had a strong season. Ball handling skills in open play need work though. Beirne tried hard but Leinster had him well marshalled. Same with CJ, huge defensive shift but look tired in attack. POM isn't a 7. We need a 7. JVdF was outstanding my MoM. Played the 7 role perfectly. So fast off the line. Conan keeping up his strong form and Ruddock was very aggressive, great game from him. The ref gave him a free for all at ruck time and he took full advantage. Big Dev lucky not to see red for a shoulder charge into Beirnes face in the 2nd half. Baffling refereeing performance. All manner of stuff ignored by both sides. Didn't cost us in any way. Player safety was all that suffered. Coombes was our shining light. Will be a star in green quite soon. Very powerful carrier, a threat on the deck and lovely hands. Needs to be put at no.8 in CJs absence. He's made for it. There's serious bacrow talent there for Ireland at the moment. Murray unfortunately undid all his good work v England and his woeful box kick lead directly to Conan's try. Carbery not match fit. Don't think he's a 10. Defence suspect in the 10 channel. He's a 15 really. Earls decent bar a few errors. DDA great in defence. Farrell has regressed under JvG. Conway has been out of sorts for a while. Haley is a good player but Keenan was superb today. Henshaw ready to do great things for Lions. Playing out of his skin. Great to see. Luke McGrath had an armchair ride but bossed the game well. Ross B is the 2nd best 10 in Ireland at this point. Another HIA for Johnny is worrying. Dave Kearney back in form. Finally, Ryan Baird looks special. Very dynamic. Looking forward to him in the no.4 jersey for Ireland. So dynamic and powerful for a big man. His rip on CJ was a pen, but nevertheless impressive.

The Toulouse game will tell another about where we're going. The players body language, especially from POM didn't look good. Could see a player lead backlash and a big performance v Toulouse. We will need it. Something doesn't smell right.

ujjjjjjjjj

almostover wrote: »

Tough watching for this Munster fan today. Leinster left a few tries out there too through bad passing. Thought the game would be over by HT but a decent final 10 mins of the first half put us going in level. Couldn't make any head way in the 2nd half and Leinster defended us very comfortably all game. If we were still out there we wouldn't have scored a try.

Management team hasn't brought his team on at all really. We haven't progressed past the semis of the champions Cup and we haven't had any joy v Leinster, especially when it matters. Those are the benchmarks for improvement. It hasn't come from JvG.

Leinsters tight 5 did a number on us today. That's where the game was lost. John Ryan has gone backwards under JvG. He was winning Ireland caps a few years back. Archer is a great pro but when the Leinster tightheads are Porter and Furlong we are up against it. Those 2 guys could be the no.1 and 2 tightheads for the Lions. Kelleher excellent too at hooker. Very dynamic. Throwing was better too today. Looks a future 50+ capper for Ireland if he keeps his lineouts tidy. Kleyn was good for us today in the tight and has had a strong season. Ball handling skills in open play need work though. Beirne tried hard but Leinster had him well marshalled. Same with CJ, huge defensive shift but look tired in attack. POM isn't a 7. We need a 7. JVdF was outstanding my MoM. Played the 7 role perfectly. So fast off the line. Conan keeping up his strong form and Ruddock was very aggressive, great game from him. The ref gave him a free for all at ruck time and he took full advantage. Big Dev lucky not to see red for a shoulder charge into Beirnes face in the 2nd half. Baffling refereeing performance. All manner of stuff ignored by both sides. Didn't cost us in any way. Player safety was all that suffered. Coombes was our shining light. Will be a star in green quite soon. Very powerful carrier, a threat on the deck and lovely hands. Needs to be put at no.8 in CJs absence. He's made for it. There's serious bacrow talent there for Ireland at the moment. Murray unfortunately undid all his good work v England and his woeful box kick lead directly to Conan's try. Carbery not match fit. Don't think he's a 10. Defence suspect in the 10 channel. He's a 15 really. Earls decent bar a few errors. DDA great in defence. Farrell has regressed under JvG. Conway has been out of sorts for a while. Haley is a good player but Keenan was superb today. Henshaw ready to do great things for Lions. Playing out of his skin. Great to see. Luke McGrath had an armchair ride but bossed the game well. Ross B is the 2nd best 10 in Ireland at this point. Another HIA for Johnny is worrying. Dave Kearney back in form. Finally, Ryan Baird looks special. Very dynamic. Looking forward to him in the no.4 jersey for Ireland. So dynamic and powerful for a big man. His rip on CJ was a pen, but nevertheless impressive.

The Toulouse game will tell another about where we're going. The players body language, especially from POM didn't look good. Could see a player lead backlash and a big performance v Toulouse. We will need it. Something doesn't smell right.

Good post , thank you for the comment on Carbery. Been banging on about this ever since I first saw him in the RDS. Believe he had been earmarked at 15 for Leinster and in his limited time at Leinster when I saw him at 15 he worked and he was good under a high ball. Have never seen him as a 10. He simply needs more space and broken field situations to be a danger. We will never know but if the sliding doors had kept him at Leinster I think he would be where Keenan is now....for Ireland and Leinster.

ujjjjjjjjj

molloyjh wrote: »

The individual initiating the contact is important. In this case it wasn't Porter. He stayed where he was and didn't move forward. He isn't obliged to get out of Kleyns way. He is obliged to ensure that if he is going to initiate contact with Kleyn that he do so in a safe manner. If he isn't initiating contact then there is no foul play. Otherwise, as has already been said, ball carriers could buy penalties and cards left and right by running head first into the nearest defender. There needs to be common sense here. And it was applied in this case.

+1

ujjjjjjjjj

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

So Munster have the brawn. But the reality is that Leinster have that in spades and then much more. And that is the real difference between the teams. Leinster easily match the brawn of Munster and what's left after that for Munster. Van Graan adds nothing

Physicality from Leinster particularly in the second half was incredible today, brick wall for Munster. By the 70th minute Munster were shot, you could see it in the body language. They got beaten up.

Ruddock was possessed in the second half, one of the most impressive physical displays I have seen on a rugby pitch. Conan impressive too and VDF well another VDF energy bunny performance. Close to a perfect backrow performance.

lotmc

As retrospective refereeing is such a feature of this thread, did anyone else notice the kick in the face that Sexton got from Munster studs? it was in a ruck when both players were on the ground and the Munster player went to stand up (I think it was Beirne). May not have been deliberate, but no evidence of duty of care being exercised, and it was very dangerous.

Digifriendly

Had Wasps vs Sale on my phone while watching Leinster vs Munster and tbh the Premiership game was a better watch. Yes Leinster are clinical and fully deserved to win but match was boring. Bristol vs Harlequins earlier in the day was a superb match with an incredible finish. Maybe S. African teams will liven up the competition but at present the Pro 14 is below standard of Premiership.

Utah_Saint

Digifriendly wrote: »

Had Wasps vs Sale on my phone while watching Leinster vs Munster and tbh the Premiership game was a better watch. Yes Leinster are clinical and fully deserved to win but match was boring. Bristol vs Harlequins earlier in the day was a superb match with an incredible finish. Maybe S. African teams will liven up the competition but at present the Pro 14 is below standard of Premiership.

Have to agree. Past 12months I've watched more premiership games than pro14. The pro14 is pretty boring and the skills on show bar 1 or 2 teams looks to have regressed

Rigor Mortis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

There was a young man called Jack,
Who thought he'd take Peter's place at the back,
He wasn't very good
He'd nothing under the hood,
In fact he was total cack.

Glad i took the time to go back over this thread after the match:D

FrannoFan

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Good post , thank you for the comment on Carbery. Been banging on about this ever since I first saw him in the RDS. Believe he had been earmarked at 15 for Leinster and in his limited time at Leinster when I saw him at 15 he worked and he was good under a high ball. Have never seen him as a 10. He simply needs more space and broken field situations to be a danger. We will never know but if the sliding doors had kept him at Leinster I think he would be where Keenan is now....for Ireland and Leinster.

The guy has hardly played in two years, questionable management to put him in with so little game time under his belt. But if jj had started the result would be the same and they would be accused of making the same mistakes etc etc.
Thought defensively he was left isolated by having pom at 7. No help in his channel coming and henshaw picked him off.
Not surprised the best munster performer was from the player least exposed to previous experience against Leinster, too many of the munster team beaten before the game kicked off.

I think a really poor season would actually serve munster well the way it did Ulster. A proper clear out. They have been so close to success it has masked the fact a lot of those players not up to it. A bit of short term pain with knox and salanoa to replace archer/ryan etc

VayNiice

almostover wrote: »

Tough watching for this Munster fan today. Leinster left a few tries out there too through bad passing. Thought the game would be over by HT but a decent final 10 mins of the first half put us going in level. Couldn't make any head way in the 2nd half and Leinster defended us very comfortably all game. If we were still out there we wouldn't have scored a try.

Management team hasn't brought his team on at all really. We haven't progressed past the semis of the champions Cup and we haven't had any joy v Leinster, especially when it matters. Those are the benchmarks for improvement. It hasn't come from JvG.

Leinsters tight 5 did a number on us today. That's where the game was lost. John Ryan has gone backwards under JvG. He was winning Ireland caps a few years back. Archer is a great pro but when the Leinster tightheads are Porter and Furlong we are up against it. Those 2 guys could be the no.1 and 2 tightheads for the Lions. Kelleher excellent too at hooker. Very dynamic. Throwing was better too today. Looks a future 50+ capper for Ireland if he keeps his lineouts tidy. Kleyn was good for us today in the tight and has had a strong season. Ball handling skills in open play need work though. Beirne tried hard but Leinster had him well marshalled. Same with CJ, huge defensive shift but look tired in attack. POM isn't a 7. We need a 7. JVdF was outstanding my MoM. Played the 7 role perfectly. So fast off the line. Conan keeping up his strong form and Ruddock was very aggressive, great game from him. The ref gave him a free for all at ruck time and he took full advantage. Big Dev lucky not to see red for a shoulder charge into Beirnes face in the 2nd half. Baffling refereeing performance. All manner of stuff ignored by both sides. Didn't cost us in any way. Player safety was all that suffered. Coombes was our shining light. Will be a star in green quite soon. Very powerful carrier, a threat on the deck and lovely hands. Needs to be put at no.8 in CJs absence. He's made for it. There's serious bacrow talent there for Ireland at the moment. Murray unfortunately undid all his good work v England and his woeful box kick lead directly to Conan's try. Carbery not match fit. Don't think he's a 10. Defence suspect in the 10 channel. He's a 15 really. Earls decent bar a few errors. DDA great in defence. Farrell has regressed under JvG. Conway has been out of sorts for a while. Haley is a good player but Keenan was superb today. Henshaw ready to do great things for Lions. Playing out of his skin. Great to see. Luke McGrath had an armchair ride but bossed the game well. Ross B is the 2nd best 10 in Ireland at this point. Another HIA for Johnny is worrying. Dave Kearney back in form. Finally, Ryan Baird looks special. Very dynamic. Looking forward to him in the no.4 jersey for Ireland. So dynamic and powerful for a big man. His rip on CJ was a pen, but nevertheless impressive.

The Toulouse game will tell another about where we're going. The players body language, especially from POM didn't look good. Could see a player lead backlash and a big performance v Toulouse. We will need it. Something doesn't smell right.

Why would Bairds rip on cj have been a penalty??

prawnsambo

VayNiice wrote: »

Why would Bairds rip on cj have been a penalty??

Because CJs knees were on the ground, so it's a tackle situation and Baird hasn't released. But it's marginal as the ripping motion started before his knees touched the ground.

randomname2005

AbusesToilets wrote: »

On a different tack, how did Earls not get called for a penalty when he deliberately knocked down the ball after he took that quick throw in? Potential for penalty try there

I thought I was alone in that, blatant knock down, should have been easily seen by the team of 4. Just another example of the poor officiating in the match for both sides

randomname2005

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because CJs knees were on the ground, so it's a tackle situation and Baird hasn't released. But it's marginal as the ripping motion started before his knees touched the ground.

Definitely close and both sides can claim they deserved the outcome they wanted. I think it is one of the 'open to interpretation' of the laws situations

stephen_n

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Both players (Aki and Porter) made tackles that involved their shoulders contacting the carriers head. Do we agree? In one case the tackler drove up and forward made contact with force. Red card. In the other, the tackler made zero effort to lower his height, the carrier dropped in height and you and some others here say that's fine. Ok. Kind of like Henshaw and Caine a few years back I guess.

The massive difference being, Aki was the tackler. Porter wasn’t, Kleyn was tackled by another player. Aki went straight in on Billy V, dipped and drove upwards. Porter was standing ready to tackle or probably jackal and Kleyn’s tackled and falls forward into him. It wasn’t a tackle. Aki was carded because he dipped and drove upwards, the incidents are not in any way comparable. It’s not about the force.

stephen_n

randomname2005 wrote: »

Definitely close and both sides can claim they deserved the outcome they wanted. I think it is one of the 'open to interpretation' of the laws situations

I was amazed at that when it happened. 9 out of ten refs these days would have penalized that. I don’t think the TMO can get involved there though. Adamson was looking straight at it though and made the decision. He was fairly decisive in his decisions, it seemed to the exclusion of the TMO and AR’s. Unfortunately that meant he missed an awful lot of incidents.

Buer

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

ROL’s distribution isn’t good enough. His best performances have always come on the wing. TOB would have probably been there had he been fit. Maybe even Osborne in the next few years. It wouldn’t have taken Ringrose to make those passes. Just wasn’t ROL’s night. Though in fairness Larmour also over ran the first one which didn’t help.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

I wouldn't include the held up incidents as evidence of a lack of accuracy on Leinster's part. I always think of those as exceptional defensive efforts.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

We're integrating a bunch of guys who have played little to no rugby for Leinster in the last 2 months. A few errors and a lack of cohesion is to be expected. I was actually encouraged by the attacking game we delivered overall. It was small individual errors that cost us. And those can be tidied up. ROL has done well at 12 before. I wonder if switching the centres may have been a better idea. Either way we created a lot and just need to fine tune things now. It's not a bad place to be in with 16 of the 23 having such limited time with Leinster over the 6Ns.

prawnsambo

I still find it amazing that Devin Toner has become the most capped Leinster player of all time. I know locks can be quite long-lived in the game, but it's still an incredible achievement.

Buer

Fair points, Molloy, and I would hope to get a couple more guys back for Toulon and, potentially, Exeter. I think the midfield remains, though. ROL is a solid performer particularly in defence. Toulon aren't the team they were but they've top class creative players in their backs. With Nonu gone, they might well go with Serin, Carbonel and Belleau at 9, 10 and 12 which isn't too shabby at all.

Ryan and Doris are both due back, I'd like to think. Lancaster said several weeks ago that Doris would return within a month which would be next week if it rings true.

I'd imagine Sexton will be available but I'd also be comfortable with him sitting this out. His injury last night seemed more related to a nose that wouldn't stop bleeding than a concussion.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an entirely different front five start next week also.

Buer

Bit of an odd suggestion but Beirne should lose the scrum cap. Leinster totally nullified him last night by carrying into him and forcing him to make the tackle, limiting his ability to get a clear release and attempt a poach. He stands out a mile with the blue cap and allows the carrier to identify him with no hesitation.

Leinster did the exact same when he played for the Scarlets and actually trained with Beirne specifically in mind by getting Connors to wear the scrum cap in training.

For Ireland, he was able to hang off the tackle area and attack the ball to great success. Teams weren't ready for the threat he posed and he destroyed them. He was forced to make tackle after tackle last night in phase play.

sydthebeat

I dont think it's any coincidence that both connors and Beirne wore the same cap when playing together for Ireland....

Concentrates and confuses the defenders

theVersatile

On the contrary, I believe all fifteen players should wear cyan scrum caps

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's no coincidence that Munster haven't won a trophy since John Hayes retired.

:cool:

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

ROL must have had draw HT / Leinster FT on the go

Clegg

ESPN have updated their stats for yesterday's match and it really reads poorly for Munster's midfield.

They have Murray, Carbery, De Allende and Farrell down for 4,4,4,5 missed tackles respectively. That number is right for Carbery as he was bowled over by Henshaw a few times and Fardy ran over him at least once as well. But the numbers for the others are really poor.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

ESPN have updated their stats for yesterday's match and it really reads poorly for Munster's midfield.

They have Murray, Carbery, De Allende and Farrell down for 4,4,4,5 missed tackles respectively. That number is right for Carbery as he was bowled over by Henshaw a few times and Fardy ran over him at least once as well. But the numbers for the others are really poor.

Stander 7 carries for 1m
Leinster just nullify him constantly.

DDA had 6 carries for 3m
Henshaw had 16 for 74m


I watched the post match stuff with Ferris Quinlan and Jackman. Quinlan was quite outspoken. Jackman made the point that Leinster are able to get the balance between emotion, tactics, game smarts etc and I wonder was there a hint of Munster relying on the Holland/Stander emotion a little bit and it fell flat.