RTÉ to cease radio transmission on DAB network

kazoo106 · 25-03-2021 05:10PM

Actually its DAB, FM, DAB, FM, DAB, FM

In my humble opinion the FM is really really poor on 97.0 (they cant even get the balance right. although nothing surprising there)

TAFKAlawhec · 25-03-2021 07:11PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

DAB breaks up and Band III transmitters have much shorter range anyway. The receivers are much more bulky, power hungry and expensive.

The way FM and DAB are broadcast is quite different - FM is strictly a MFN, so for large area coverage, high sites with high power makes sense in numerous cases, with lower powered fillers or individual stations as geography permits. DAB can in theory run as a MFN, but the approach in most cases is as an SFN - which to work properly needs transmissions to stay within a time mask for constructive interference to reinforce reception. AFAIK DAB is restricted to a time mask equivalent to a distance of 76km, meaning that at a reception point within an SFN. In the UK all DAB transmission (apart from a couple of SDL sites) run their ERPs at 10kW maximum, and often have directional characteristics to reduce possible destructive interference areas. When set up properly, it works fine.

As for the receivers, this may have been the case years ago, but less so now. I have a POPnano portable DAB+ receiver (70 x 34 x 17mm excluding belt clip) that works about 4.5 hours on its built in battery that is recharged the same way as any mobile phone does these days with its micro USB socket. You can also get portables from the likes of Argos, Amazon etc. starting from £20 or so, not exactly expensive.

kazoo106 wrote: »

Thats correct - some time ago I placed a link to a recording of Heart 80s of UK DAB - here it is again - its only 40k with a 32kHz sample rate. Can the audiophiles here please comment - sounds not to bad to me ! If this is infringing on boards rules, Admins please delete

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdlxtaiw8ugekxr/Heart-80s-15022021.wav?dl=0

On paper, a sampling rate of 32kHz should still be capable of delivering FM quality provided a sufficient bitrate is used. IMHO the HE-AACv2 codec used for lower bitrate DAB+ stations (usually 48kbps and lower) tends to have a somewhat artificial high-end/treble due to the combined use of SBR & PS at such bitrates, but for day to day listening they tend to be little noticed - you have to listen parallel to an uncompressed version of the same audio to definitely notice, and if you're using anything other than a hi-fi setup the hardware reproduction will probably mask much of the deficiency.

I can't receive (on a portable at least) the SDL ensemble where I live, but the digitalbitrate.com website indicates that the BFBS station on there is pushing out a sample rate of 48kHz with a bitrate of 24kbps inc. SBR & PS!

I can only assume that it either sounds very "metallic" or that the encoder in use should be rolled out elsewhere if it's that good.

radioguru02 · 25-03-2021 07:53PM

kazoo106 wrote: »

Actually its DAB, FM, DAB, FM, DAB, FM

In my humble opinion the FM is really really poor on 97.0 (they cant even get the balance right. although nothing surprising there)

FM is not amazing, but the DAB is worse

kazoo106 · 25-03-2021 08:03PM

I'll get a bfbs sample up soon, in my opinion any bitrates below 64k need to be sampled at 32kHz with ps.
I'd go so far as even include 64k at that sample rate and 48khz from 72k up

kazoo106 · 25-03-2021 08:47PM

Here is a short sample of BFBS - it's rough as hell and should be sampled at 32kHz not 48
No wonder DAB in the UK gets such a slashing for quality.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5tmccgh7jv4m88j/BFBS.wav?dl=0

TAFKAlawhec · 25-03-2021 09:07PM

kazoo106 wrote: »

Here is a short sample of BFBS - it's rough as hell and should be sampled at 32kHz not 48
No wonder DAB in the UK gets such a slashing for quality.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5tmccgh7jv4m88j/BFBS.wav?dl=0

Thanks, it sounded like I expected it to be, quite "watery" and metallic at the high audio frequency end. An additional 8kbps certainly wouldn't go amiss (I'm not sure how much capacity there is left on the SDL ensemble, but I think it's not completely full), but it depends I guess on how much SSVC, BFBS' owners, can afford.

Incidently on the same ensemble both Fun Kids UK & Boom Radio are also 24kbps, albeit both in mono - Boom uses a 48kHz sampling rate while Fun Kids (sensibly) is 32kHz.

On the D1 ensemble, LBC News is the only 24kbps service on there, but limits its sampling rate to 32kHz mono and is really a speech only service, so less dynamic range and can get away with a lesser bit rate in return.

It's interesting to see the bitrates used in Continental Europe for their DAB+ services, HE-AACv1 is used a lot more than v2 so bitrates are higher to compensate. OTOH Australia, in the cities where DAB+ is broadcast, seems to be largely going down the UK route of cramming in stations at the somewhat expense of audio quality.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-03-2021 10:07PM

plodder wrote: »

Maybe the intention in other countries was (or is) to switch off FM and reallocate the spectrum, as happened with analog TV, in the name of making more efficient use of radio spectrum, but if FM wasn't close to capacity, it's hard to see how that would have applied here.

There's no other useful application I know of for Band II (88-108MHz) whereas there was a fairly lucrative one for the high UHF TV frequencies (mobile internet).

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

AFAIK DAB is restricted to a time mask equivalent to a distance of 76km, meaning that at a reception point within an SFN. In the UK all DAB transmission (apart from a couple of SDL sites) run their ERPs at 10kW maximum, and often have directional characteristics to reduce possible destructive interference areas. When set up properly, it works fine.

You still need more sites than FM, so rolling out nationwide DAB coverage would have been far from cheap, and the lack of interest from commercial stations here made it pointless anyway.

As for the receivers, this may have been the case years ago, but less so now. I have a POPnano portable DAB+ receiver (70 x 34 x 17mm excluding belt clip) that works about 4.5 hours on its built in battery that is recharged the same way as any mobile phone does these days with its micro USB socket. You can also get portables from the likes of Argos, Amazon etc. starting from £20 or so, not exactly expensive.

FM receivers are still a lot more compact, lower power and cheaper.
4.5 hours isn't even a day (or a decent walk or hike, for some people). An equivalent FM speakerless receiver would be about a quarter of the volume and run for weeks on two AAA cells.

Really the only advantage left for DAB is the possibility of more stations, but there isn't the advertising income or licence fee in the Republic to sustain more stations - even in the nation's biggest advertising market, Phamtom / TXFM failed and nobody has taken over its slot.

end of the road · 25-03-2021 10:49PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's no other useful application I know of for Band II (88-108MHz) whereas there was a fairly lucrative one for the high UHF TV frequencies (mobile internet).

You still need more sites than FM, so rolling out nationwide DAB coverage would have been far from cheap, and the lack of interest from commercial stations here made it pointless anyway.

FM receivers are still a lot more compact, lower power and cheaper.
4.5 hours isn't even a day (or a decent walk or hike, for some people). An equivalent FM speakerless receiver would be about a quarter of the volume and run for weeks on two AAA cells.

Really the only advantage left for DAB is the possibility of more stations, but there isn't the advertising income or licence fee in the Republic to sustain more stations - even in the nation's biggest advertising market, Phamtom / TXFM failed and nobody has taken over its slot.

there isn't the advertising to support the current high cost model radio operates under in this country certainly, but whether there would be for a low cost model where the stations decide their own business model rather then the BAI, is currently unknown.
phantom/tx fm was expected to operate the same as a full service ILR, which was never going to be sustainable, so the fact it failed of itself doesn't prove that more stations under a modernised model may not work, but simply proves small scale stations cannot work within the old outdated model we currently have because the costs are out of whack.

TAFKAlawhec · 26-03-2021 06:04PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You still need more sites than FM, so rolling out nationwide DAB coverage would have been far from cheap, and the lack of interest from commercial stations here made it pointless anyway.

The requirement for more sites can be negated by the reduction of electricity required by transmitters, as well as many stations only needing one TX as opposed to one TX per station. For example, the BBC have mentioned in the past as how their UK DAB SFN has lower transmission costs than their FM network of four national FM stations.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

FM receivers are still a lot more compact, lower power and cheaper.
4.5 hours isn't even a day (or a decent walk or hike, for some people). An equivalent FM speakerless receiver would be about a quarter of the volume and run for weeks on two AAA cells.

I've attached a picture of the POPnano next to a AA battery - it's hardly bulky and any decent FM only or FM/MW radio (e.g. Sony) will likely be bigger than this. Personally, the only receiver I've ever owned that was smaller than it was an old Coca-Cola FM earpiece that ran on a CR2025 battery, and lets just say it wasn't the greatest of radios. Also, the 4.5 hour battery life is fine for the majority of people - it's easy to recharge the same way any mobile phone is, and most people are unlikely listen using earphones continuously for 4+ hours. In the unusual event one might do, you can simply carry a small portable battery that is used for charging mobile phones with you etc. (you can get one for a pound up north here in Poundland, so I'll assume there's something similar in Dealz). In any case, you can get "bigger" DAB handheld radios that are the equivalent size of their analogue counterparts that have longer battery life.

There are still some technical criticisms that can be made on DAB/DAB+, but some that held true 20 or even 10 years ago - in particular the size of receivers and their cost - are rendered moot these days, while battery consumption in receivers - while not as good as receiving analogue broadcasts - is a lot better than back in the 00's and continues to improve.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Really the only advantage left for DAB is the possibility of more stations, but there isn't the advertising income or licence fee in the Republic to sustain more stations - even in the nation's biggest advertising market, Phamtom / TXFM failed and nobody has taken over its slot.

IMHO it is not so much the lack of advertising income but rather the model of regulation for commercial radio in the Republic of Ireland that is the problem. If we take for example Norway, a country that has about only 400,000 more people than the RoI and a landmass of more than five times as well, they have essentially two national ensembles (the NRK ensemble is regionalised, but has essentially the same coverage area as the national commercial ensemble) carrying over 30 different stations covering the breadth from Oslo to Longyearbyen on Svlabard to the Russian border, with additional stations on local ensembles (usually in the more populated areas) and a second national commercial ensemble planned to be rolled out. Denmark & Switzerland are also interesting cases to look at regarding their DAB+ networks, albeit with slightly larger populations again and smaller land mass (though CH's geography is troublesome in terms of terrestrial coverage).

The Irish commercial radio laws and regulations have not evolved much over the last 30 years or so, mandating minimum speech content being one of the biggest regulatory burdens on FM stations in the country. I suspect that the 105.2 MHz frequency in the Dublin area would be brought back to life were much looser conditions on their "agreement" with the BAI for broadcasting were allowed. Wherever the current regulations concerning commercial broadcast radio in the country are either still relevant, not fit for purpouse or somewhere in between is open for debate - but if the Republic was to pursue a radio regulatory environment more in line with much of continental Europe or even the UK, an environment for a digital radio platform to evolve in the country would be more likely IMO.

Antenna · 26-03-2021 09:26PM

kazoo106 wrote: »

Just noticing

Stereo on RTE Gold on Saorview is the opposite way around to DAB

Now in this day and age I would not have thought that anything analog should be in the audio chain !!!

Last weekend came across the Irish film 'I Went Down' (1997) on RTE TV via Saorview (though I assume Sky etc were as I describe).
Audio was mono but the Left and Right channels were in antiphase!
The antiphase led to a unnatural widened effect between both speakers

Anyone know if this was an accident or deliberate?

Anyone know if this film's audio was mono sound in the first place, and this antiphase between left and right was someone's (bad) idea of some sort of fake stereo sound?

I tried mixing L and R to mono to see what happened, replicating the effect of someone with a mono sound TV, or watching via an analogue modulator (no stereo) receiving this audio. The result very low audio (so turned volume way up) the audio had very pronounced swirling effects, alien sounding.

The sound during ad breaks was normal.

Brian CivilEng · 31-03-2021 09:12AM

It's goodbye DAB day.

I've secured alternative ways to continue listening, but it kind of feels like the end of an era. I will no longer listen to any broadcast radio show. Its all streaming now.

Insidethetent · 31-03-2021 09:27AM

Does anyone know when they're switching off DAB today?

Glaceon · 31-03-2021 10:04AM

Looks like they pulled the plug at 11. All stations gone silent but the carrier is still present.

JDxtra · 31-03-2021 10:06AM

Gone.

yrreg0850 · 31-03-2021 10:14AM

It should be a case of goodbye RTE . If enough carry this out their advertisers might pay attention.

Insidethetent · 31-03-2021 10:18AM

Have to admit to being saddened to lose the DAB service, it was great on my walkman, lovely quality sound and good music on GOLD.

Former Former Former · 31-03-2021 10:22AM

yrreg0850 wrote: »

It should be a case of goodbye RTE . If enough carry this out their advertisers might pay attention.

If every single person who was listening via DAB never listened to RTE again, it wouldn't even make a ripple in the overall numbers. Advertisers wouldn't even notice, let alone care.

Glaceon · 31-03-2021 10:31AM

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

I've attached a picture of the POPnano next to a AA battery - it's hardly bulky and any decent FM only or FM/MW radio (e.g. Sony) will likely be bigger than this. Personally, the only receiver I've ever owned that was smaller than it was an old Coca-Cola FM earpiece that ran on a CR2025 battery, and lets just say it wasn't the greatest of radios. Also, the 4.5 hour battery life is fine for the majority of people - it's easy to recharge the same way any mobile phone is, and most people are unlikely listen using earphones continuously for 4+ hours. In the unusual event one might do, you can simply carry a small portable battery that is used for charging mobile phones with you etc. (you can get one for a pound up north here in Poundland, so I'll assume there's something similar in Dealz). In any case, you can get "bigger" DAB handheld radios that are the equivalent size of their analogue counterparts that have longer battery life.

I have the same one myself, albeit in black. I used it a lot on my commute to work (when that was still a thing!) and it did the job. It's more awkward on FM because it has no presets so I'm not sure if I'll keep using it now that DAB is gone here.

Declan A Walsh · 31-03-2021 10:44AM

Glaceon wrote: »

Looks like they pulled the plug at 11. All stations gone silent but the carrier is still present.

Just to remind people that all RTE's digital stations are still running via all the other platforms as before, such as online (including Radio Garden) and digital television providers. Gone from DAB, but not closed down as stations.

Brian CivilEng · 31-03-2021 10:53AM

I missed the moment, the radio just didn't come back on after I finished a work call.

Streaming now.

kazoo106 · 31-03-2021 11:10AM

Nice of them to put the message up "as Gaeilge" for RnaG

Declan A Walsh · 31-03-2021 11:12AM

kazoo106 wrote: »

Nice of them to put the message up "as Gaeilge" for RnaG

Careful - you might get a few posters going there!

ITV2 · 31-03-2021 02:10PM

anyone when they will switch the TXs off, my car keeps switching to RTE R1 on dab for some reason so it's impossible to listen to RTE1 on FM.

galtee boy · 31-03-2021 02:40PM

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

It's goodbye DAB day.

I've secured alternative ways to continue listening, but it kind of feels like the end of an era. I will no longer listen to any broadcast radio show. Its all streaming now.

I bought one of those Alexa Echo Auto devices, best thing ever for the car. No need to touch a button or control on the car, just say, Alexa play BBC Radio 4 or Alexa, play RTE GOLD and hey presto, you're listening. Also, I've noticed that channel changing is much faster than doing it on my home Alexa unit.

twinklerunner · 31-03-2021 03:54PM

galtee boy wrote: »

I bought one of those Alexa Echo Auto devices, best thing ever for the car. No need to touch a button or control on the car, just say, Alexa play BBC Radio 4 or Alexa, play RTE GOLD and hey presto, you're listening. Also, I've noticed that channel changing is much faster than doing it on my home Alexa unit.

I must look into that. I listen to BBC via the BBC Sounds app on my phone - that sounds a better option.

Andy454 · 31-03-2021 04:56PM

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

. Gone from DAB, but not closed down as stations.

But it says “this service has closed” on all the stations....

Dindane · 31-03-2021 04:58PM

So is any DAB station able to be picked up in Ireland now?

end of the road · 31-03-2021 05:12PM

Andy454 wrote: »

But it says “this service has closed” on all the stations....

yes, but that is just on the dab service.
they are still broadcasting online and on saorview etc.

Andy454 · 31-03-2021 05:14PM

ITV2 wrote: »

anyone when they will switch the TXs off, my car keeps switching to RTE R1 on dab for some reason so it's impossible to listen to RTE1 on FM.

I mentioned this in a previous comment - car radios are programmed to pick up DAB “where available”.....

Larbre34 · 31-03-2021 05:23PM

Dindane wrote: »

So is any DAB station able to be picked up in Ireland now?

No. There is no broadcast network any longer.

RTÉ to cease radio transmission on DAB network

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