What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

astrofool · 25-03-2021 03:24PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes but that would be your dispute with the dealer and you would have a right to take him to court. However until the case was settled in court you would not be able to prevent him from selling another car to your neighbour or have any claim on that car he has already sold.

If you were a country you would just impound his lot and all his remaining cars.

Danzy · 25-03-2021 03:25PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The EU would be enforcing its contract with AZ, much the same as the UK is doing preventing the export of doses produced in the UK. It is for AZ to fulfill contracts to all their customers.

They'll half do it, enough to damage their reputation but not enough to make a difference.

The EU contract with AZ had no consequence to failure to meet targets, the British one did.

Basic SME exports contract stuff but the EU were only dealing with a one in a century threat to a 17 trillion Euro economy, so more relaxed approach.

25-03-2021 03:26PM

Aegir wrote: »

ignoring your rather childish jingoism there, that is exactly what the EU should be doing.

It's what the UK did.

The EU and India will do the bulk of vaccine manufacturing for this OUS. So the suggestion is the EU should be doing what the EU is doing?

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:27PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think in this case it is not so much selling another car to your neighbour, it's more like selling the same car to your neighbour which they also sold to you.

Although I don't entirely agree with your analogy, it still seems to be a matter for the courts. I don't have the right to seize the car off my neighbour.

25-03-2021 03:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you went to local car dealer and asked him to try to find a particular car and he said "I will try my best and I can guarantee you no one else has first call if I find one, and will call you as soon as anything changes". Then you see it in the showroom the next day and he tells you he sold it to your neighbour because he told him he gets first choice on all cars, do you think you would be happy? And do you think it will be good in the long term for AZ to be known as the dodgy car dealer of big pharma in the worlds 2nd biggest market?

which is a good analogy if you are buying cars, but this isn't a car.

however, I guess we could use this follows:

you go to your local car dealer and tell them you want 200 cars and they should be blue.

Meanwhile, another customer talks to the same dealer and say they want 100 cars, in red and as red isn't a standard colour, they will arrange for those red cars to be built in their own factory, which the dealer can then use to make whatever cars it likes, but the first 100 cars must be their.

You then go back to your dealer and due to a shortage of blue paint his factory has only managed to make 50 blue cars so far, so you decide that you want some of the red ones instead, to which the dealer says sorry, those are for someone else. When I have finished making that batch of red ones I can use that factory to make your blue ones as well, but only when the red ones are made. In the meantime, I can carry on making your blue cars in the factories that aren't owned by my red car customer.

do you then go and complain that the customer buying the red cars is stopping you getting your blue ones?

25-03-2021 03:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU and India will do the bulk of vaccine manufacturing for this OUS. So the suggestion is the EU should be doing what the EU is doing?

No, AstraZeneca, Pfizer and SII are doing the bulk of the vaccine production, the EU is twiddling its thumbs.

Danzy · 25-03-2021 03:36PM

murphaph wrote: »

The EU needs to rapidly increase its own capabilities. Mrs. Merkel said the same yesterday and I think she's right.

Hopefully they'll start to treat it seriously now, no rush though, only 14 months in.

If Merkel took a measured and committed approach to combatting the 3rd wave in Germany, wouldn't that be fantastic.

The " it's just a bad flu" and vaccines aren't worth anything attitude again.

One is a problem but both views together are a crisis.

Strazdas · 25-03-2021 03:37PM

Aegir wrote: »

which is a good analogy if you are buying cars, but this isn't a car.

however, I guess we could use this follows:

you go to your local car dealer and tell them you want 200 cars and they should be blue.

Meanwhile, another customer talks to the same dealer and say they want 100 cars, in red and as red isn't a standard colour, they will arrange for those red cars to be built in their own factory, which the dealer can then use to make whatever cars it likes, but the first 100 cars must be their.

You then go back to your dealer and due to a shortage of blue paint his factory has only managed to make 50 blue cars so far, so you decide that you want some of the red ones instead, to which the dealer says sorry, those are for someone else. When I have finished making that batch of red ones I can use that factory to make your blue ones as well, but only when the red ones are made. In the meantime, I can carry on making your blue cars in the factories that aren't owned by my red car customer.

do you then go and complain that the customer buying the red cars is stopping you getting your blue ones?

When you enter into contract with a supplier, the only thing that concerns you is that contract. Any contract that supplier has with another customer or customers is nothing whatsoever to do with you and he / she can't start bringing up those other contracts when explaining to you why they can't supply you with what you ordered.

Suppliers who run into major difficulties because they have overpromised their customers or overreached themselves are usually regarded as dodgy suppliers or even as 'rogue traders'.

astrofool · 25-03-2021 03:40PM

Aegir wrote: »

No, AstraZeneca, Pfizer and SII are doing the bulk of the vaccine production, the EU is twiddling its thumbs.

And by extension, the king of twiddlers will be the UK, having failed to get AZ GB production off the floor is relying on AZ EU and Pfizer EU to keep it's vaccinations flowing.

It's good to see that the spectator has reduced itself to the propaganda wing of the tory party.

25-03-2021 03:40PM

Aegir wrote: »

which is a good analogy if you are buying cars, but this isn't a car.

however, I guess we could use this follows:

you go to your local car dealer and tell them you want 200 cars and they should be blue.

Meanwhile, another customer talks to the same dealer and say they want 100 cars, in red and as red isn't a standard colour, they will arrange for those red cars to be built in their own factory, which the dealer can then use to make whatever cars it likes, but the first 100 cars must be their.

You then go back to your dealer and due to a shortage of blue paint his factory has only managed to make 50 blue cars so far, so you decide that you want some of the red ones instead, to which the dealer says sorry, those are for someone else. When I have finished making that batch of red ones I can use that factory to make your blue ones as well, but only when the red ones are made. In the meantime, I can carry on making your blue cars in the factories that aren't owned by my red car customer.

do you then go and complain that the customer buying the red cars is stopping you getting your blue ones?

Except of the 100 red cars, 50 were made in the blue car factory

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:41PM

astrofool wrote: »

If you were a country you would just impound his lot and all his remaining cars.

I think in Ireland the State would probably have to take the company to court and win the case before that sort of impounding could take place.

astrofool · 25-03-2021 03:43PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think in Ireland the State would probably have to take the company to court and win the case before that sort of impounding could take place.

I was being facetious as the analogy is broken, but the state will impound first, and then let the owner go to court to plead their case.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:44PM

astrofool wrote: »

And by extension, the king of twiddlers will be the UK, having failed to get AZ GB production off the floor is relying on AZ EU and Pfizer EU to keep it's vaccinations flowing.

In fairness we could do with some of that twiddling given that they seem to have injected over half the adult population already.

josip · 25-03-2021 03:59PM

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Dare i say it, if it was clearly undeliverable, does than not simply indicate fraud ? They took orders for something they knew they could not deliver ?

It's not fraud but it's contrary to the principle of "Good Faith" which not surprisingly is a concept of European Law systems, but much less so or even not at all in English common law.

A nice long explanation here.

https://www.eversheds-sutherland.com/documents/services/construction/ConstructionGoodfaithinEnglishlaw.pdf

Charles Babbage · 25-03-2021 04:03PM

josip wrote: »

It's not fraud but it's contrary to the principle of "Good Faith" which not surprisingly is a concept of European Law systems, but much less so or even not at all in English common law.

English lawmakers do not act with good faith, so that is hardly surprising.

josip · 25-03-2021 04:26PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

If there's such a clear cut case of negotiating in bad faith why haven't the Commission hauled AZ into the courts for contract breach instead of being judge and jury in terms of applying an export ban in terms of their intrepretation of it?

By the time the courts decide, everyone would be vaccinated.

Dyr · 25-03-2021 04:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

AZ signed a contract with the EU explicitly stating they had no contracts which would impinge on EU deliveries while at the same time signing an exclusivity contract with the UK. To me, that is negotiating in bad faith, and would justify the EU blocking AZ exports until their contract is fulfilled.
It wont happen though

Is it not strange that the EU havent hauled them into a Belgian court?

Almost like you're completely wrong about that contract...

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 04:46PM

So updated figures from the EU meeting today.
In total, 77mil doses exported from the EU worldwide.
A total of 21mil to the UK.
Add the 5mil from SII, means of the ~31mil doses given in the UK, 5mil were produced within the UK.
Seems the UK AZ plant will be struggling to fill that 100mil order.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1375104943703478272

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 05:22PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

So updated figures from the EU meeting today.
In total, 77mil doses exported from the EU worldwide.
A total of 21mil to the UK.
Add the 5mil from SII, means of the ~31mil doses given in the UK, 5mil were produced within the UK.
Seems the UK AZ plant will be struggling to fill that 100mil order.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1375104943703478272

The 21mill all AstraZeneca?
Or a combination of all 3 manufacturers?

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 05:25PM

Call me Al wrote: »

The 21mill all AstraZeneca?
Or a combination of all 3 manufacturers?

It would be just Pfizer and AZ as they are not expecting moderna till April and that comes from Switzerland I believe.

Tippbhoy1 · 25-03-2021 05:33PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

So updated figures from the EU meeting today.
In total, 77mil doses exported from the EU worldwide.
A total of 21mil to the UK.
Add the 5mil from SII, means of the ~31mil doses given in the UK, 5mil were produced within the UK.
Seems the UK AZ plant will be struggling to fill that 100mil order.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1375104943703478272

This is astounding

titan18 · 25-03-2021 05:40PM

Man if kept them all like the US did, we'd be nearly out of this now. We'd have what 1.5m people vaccinated or something.

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 05:44PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

This is astounding

And concerning for those due their 2nd AZ dose.

Unless, anticipating this would happen, they've been using UK factories for stockpiling and bleeding everything they could from Halix while they could.

Tyrone212 · 25-03-2021 05:45PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

So updated figures from the EU meeting today.
In total, 77mil doses exported from the EU worldwide.
A total of 21mil to the UK.
Add the 5mil from SII, means of the ~31mil doses given in the UK, 5mil were produced within the UK.
Seems the UK AZ plant will be struggling to fill that 100mil order.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1375104943703478272

If the EU had a vaccine export ban like the US and those vaccines were still sitting in those factories unused Ireland would have a higher % of their population vaccinated than the UK. Pretty mad, for all the jingoistic nonsense from the right wing press in the UK they would be screwed without the EU. India has a vaccine export ban in place now , UK waiting on 5m from them.

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 05:48PM

Tyrone212 wrote: »

If the EU had a vaccine export ban like the US and those vaccines were still sitting in those factories unused Ireland would have a higher % of their population vaccinated than the UK. Pretty mad, for all the jingoistic nonsense from the right wing press in the UK they would be screwed without the EU. India has a vaccine export ban in place now , UK waiting on 5m from them.

I know, and the EU are the evil guys in all of this.

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 05:58PM

Bbc News at 6...
I wonder will this get a mention. :-)

titan18 · 25-03-2021 06:00PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yep I think if any lessons come out of this is to not treat modern UK as a partner and expect civilised cooperation any more but a rogue state which uses its rabid media to spread misinformation.

Yup, UK and US should just be ignored and do what's best for the EU. Both of them are basket cases that you can't trust.

Tyrone212 · 25-03-2021 06:12PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yep I think if any lessons come out of this is to not treat modern UK as a partner and expect civilised cooperation any more but a rogue state which uses its rabid media to spread misinformation.

Boris said the other day their vaccine rollout success
was down to greed, well that and the EU. Greed, well I don't think they've exported any vaccines.

25-03-2021 06:13PM

This thread has gone from being a reasonable discussion about Astra Zeneca to yet another “rant about da Brits” thread.

Sad, but predictable I guess

Tyrone212 · 25-03-2021 06:14PM

Call me Al wrote: »

Bbc News at 6...
I wonder will this get a mention. :-)

Doubt it. When AstraZeneca announced 79% efficacy in the US trials it was the number one read story on BBC news website and plastered all over their media. When the Americans rebuked this figure it didn't feature in the top 10 stories on the BBC website and hardly got covered anywhere if at all.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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