What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

astrofool · 25-03-2021 02:04PM

Aegir wrote: »

If it was exclusive, how have we managed to give 137,000 doses in Ireland?

Think about that for a second.

It was Matt Hancock who said they have an exclusive deal (despite it not being in the contract anywhere and ran contrary to what the other contracts they signed said). So either Hancock is lying, or it was a *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* type of exclusivity.

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 02:05PM

Aegir wrote: »

If it was exclusive, how have we managed to give 137,000 doses in Ireland?

Think about that for a second.

It was Hancock who claimed exclusivity, not the poster you quoted. You will have to ask Hancock to explain how if they have an exclusive deal, how the EU has received millions of doses. No doubt just ignore this now instead.

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 02:14PM

Strazdas wrote: »

They clearly overpromised. They were never going to be in a position to supply the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. Whether this was down to incompetence or greed remains to be seen.

Well the way I see it they weren't transparent with what was a material fact with regard to their EU contract.

If they'd been direct with the EU about the fact they'd contracted to provide UK with their first 100mill vaccines from 3 of the 4 factories they had contracted to the EU then we, as a union, would have had a better grasp of what was actually going on with their supply chains.

I don't see how they negotiated in good faith in withholding this very relevant information.

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 02:17PM

Aegir wrote: »

If it was exclusive, how have we managed to give 137,000 doses in Ireland?

Think about that for a second.

Matt Hancock has said it was exclusive.

Our doses are coming from Belgium.

The UK government have said that Halix is part of their supply chain.

murphaph · 25-03-2021 02:20PM

Aegir wrote: »

If it was exclusive, how have we managed to give 137,000 doses in Ireland?

Think about that for a second.

Exclusivity of product manufactured in the UK was mentioned.

A picture is really starting to emerge of an AZ that agreed to something it couldn't possibly deliver having agreed to deliver all the output from 2 of the 4 plants listed in the EU contract to the UK!!

The company is shifty. The EU can't rely on these guys no matter what they say or promise. I wouldn't block vaccine from Pfizer to the UK. It makes a very small difference to the EU timetable but would alienate millions of moderate Brits who never wanted to leave the EU in the first place. I see no problem blocking any AZ exports from the EU to the UK though. Neither morally, nor even legally.

RobMc59 · 25-03-2021 02:29PM

Is it possible that the success and subsequent high demand worldwide for the AZ vaccine,ease of storage etc has taken everyone,including AZ themselves by surprise?
Out of all the approved and pending approval vaccines how many are vastly oversubscribed?
AZ seems to be trying to license the vaccine for production worldwide as quickly as possible.
It's highly unlikely AZ are willfully snubbing the EU,when the dust settles after this covid nightmare (or at least the world is better prepared to deal with it going forward)I assume they want to continue manufacturing and selling all their products within the EU.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 02:29PM

Spectator article arguing that the UK should not sink to the EU's level in vaccine nationalism and should give some of its surplus to certain EU countries such as Poland or Ireland.

"It was always part of the UK strategy that surplus vaccines would be donated to the developing world through the vehicle of Covax. There is no reason why we should not also start diverting some UK-made vaccines to protect vulnerable groups in some European countries — perhaps starting with Poland and Ireland. These are countries with which many UK residents have familial ties."

That would be a good thing, imo, if we could get some vaccines from the UK.

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 02:33PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Spectator article arguing that the UK should not sink to the EU's level in vaccine nationalism and should give some of its surplus to certain EU countries such as Poland or Ireland.
"It was always part of the UK strategy that surplus vaccines would be donated to the developing world through the vehicle of Covax. There is no reason why we should not also start diverting some UK-made vaccines to protect vulnerable groups in some European countries — perhaps starting with Poland and Ireland. These are countries with which many UK residents have familial ties."
That would be a good thing, imo, if we could get some vaccines from the UK.

I cannot see them having excess AZ anytime soon. They only ordered 40mil Pfizer and the majority of that order will be used for second doses.
At a push, I'd guess AZ are producing 1mil doses a week in the UK, they still have over 70mil doses to produce.

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 02:38PM

Those suggest the UK divert some UK-made vaccines to other countries are obviously oblivious to how desperate the UK is for imported vaccines. The majority of what they have used has been imported despite keeping all of their domestic production, that tells you all you need to know about their level of domestic production.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 02:43PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I cannot see them having excess AZ anytime soon. They only ordered 40mil Pfizer and the majority of that order will be used for second doses.
At a push, I'd guess AZ are producing 1mil doses a week in the UK, they still have over 70mil doses to produce.

Still they seem very far ahead of the EU in terms of doses per capita though the EU is slowly picking up speed possibly due to some EU countries now doing deals bypassing the EU's procurement programme.

Dyr · 25-03-2021 02:46PM

murphaph wrote: »

Is this the first admission by the UK government that they did in fact attempt to tie AZ into an exclusivity deal (an export ban by any other name)?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/25/eu-leaders-push-back-against-blocs-plans-to-halt-covid-vaccine-export

That FT article:
https://www.ft.com/content/da800a0d-cd27-48d1-a06f-d0c49599c5d2

So just to be clear, your "export ban by any other name" is the Brits doing their due dliligence through legal means in the contract stage unlike the EC, who are now floating the idea of an actual, real export ban that will start a trade war just to hide their blushes?

Olympic grade mental gymnastics there

Last year, we were being told it would be the Brits who would impose a hard border on Ireland, suffer medical supply shortages and start trade wars post Brexit. Funny old turn of events, eh? Johnson must be having a right old laugh at the irony of it all.

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 02:47PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Still they seem very far ahead of the EU in terms of doses per capita though the EU is slowly picking up speed.

Correct, but that's down to a substantial Pfizer order that arrived at the end of last year ~8mil, the stockpile of AZ that was produced while it was being approved, toss in 5mil from India. All 3 have been used up and for the most part, they will be relying on domestic production of AZ, which appears to be quite low.

BonnieSituation · 25-03-2021 02:49PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Spectator article arguing that the UK should not sink to the EU's level in vaccine nationalism and should give some of its surplus to certain EU countries such as Poland or Ireland.
"It was always part of the UK strategy that surplus vaccines would be donated to the developing world through the vehicle of Covax. There is no reason why we should not also start diverting some UK-made vaccines to protect vulnerable groups in some European countries — perhaps starting with Poland and Ireland. These are countries with which many UK residents have familial ties."
That would be a good thing, imo, if we could get some vaccines from the UK.

Cool. And where is this surplus? Did the spectator make that clear?

RobMc59 · 25-03-2021 02:49PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Those suggest the UK divert some UK-made vaccines to other countries are obviously oblivious to how desperate the UK is for imported vaccines. The majority of what they have used has been imported despite keeping all of their domestic production, that tells you all you need to know about their level of domestic production.

Pharmaceutical companies manufacturing worldwide isn't a new thing Pete,whether they have their own facilities or licence it,its been going on for decades.
Over the last twenty years or so I've worked for various companies manufacturing intermediates/final products here in the UK for use in production in Ireland(and other European countries)for companies like Pfizer and many others,it's a common practice.

25-03-2021 02:53PM

Bambi wrote: »

So just to be clear, your "export ban by any other name" is the Brits doing their due dliligence through legal means in the contract stage unlike the EC, who are now floating the idea of an actual, real export ban that will start a trade war just to hide their blushes?

Olympic grade mental gymnastics there

Last year, we were being told it would be the Brits who would impose a hard border on Ireland, suffer medical supply shortages and start trade wars post Brexit. Funny old turn of events, eh? Johnson must be having a right old laugh at the irony of it all.

AZ signed a contract with the EU explicitly stating they had no contracts which would impinge on EU deliveries while at the same time signing an exclusivity contract with the UK. To me, that is negotiating in bad faith, and would justify the EU blocking AZ exports until their contract is fulfilled.
It wont happen though

murphaph · 25-03-2021 02:56PM

The EU needs to rapidly increase its own capabilities. Mrs. Merkel said the same yesterday and I think she's right. The UK can bügger off with their self-serving contracts and nudge nudge wink wink arrangements with AZ. Their faux offers of generosity (what surplus vaccine???) is just designed for domestic consumption to make the inhabitants feel better about their greed.

AZ should be blacklisted from EU contracts in further wherever possible.

odyssey06 · 25-03-2021 02:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

AZ signed a contract with the EU explicitly stating they had no contracts which would impinge on EU deliveries while at the same time signing an exclusivity contract with the UK. To me, that is negotiating in bad faith, and would justify the EU blocking AZ exports until their contract is fulfilled.
It wont happen though

If there's such a clear cut case of negotiating in bad faith why haven't the Commission hauled AZ into the courts for contract breach instead of being judge and jury in terms of applying an export ban in terms of their intrepretation of it?

fly_agaric · 25-03-2021 02:59PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is it possible that the success and subsequent high demand worldwide for the AZ vaccine,ease of storage etc has taken everyone,including AZ themselves by surprise?
Out of all the approved and pending approval vaccines how many are vastly oversubscribed?

That is a very positive gloss to put on their situation...what you say is "oversubscription" I'd call overpromising, making commitments you cannot meet. Have targets been met anywhere?
Even the golden customer (UK) with the best contracts and the proactive government that was lauded on thread for walling off local production is I think only getting 40-50% of what was expected.

Pete_Cavan wrote:

Those suggest the UK divert some UK-made vaccines to other countries are obviously oblivious to how desperate the UK is for imported vaccines. The majority of what they have used has been imported despite keeping all of their domestic production, that tells you all you need to know about their level of domestic production.

They know. It is kind of head-spinning if you pay too much attention to it.
Up is down and black is white. The "Big Lie" idea has really poisoned politics and media in the UK/US. If it works (and it certainly does) people with no morals will do it I suppose.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 02:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

AZ signed a contract with the EU explicitly stating they had no contracts which would impinge on EU deliveries while at the same time signing an exclusivity contract with the UK. To me, that is negotiating in bad faith, and would justify the EU blocking AZ exports until their contract is fulfilled.
It wont happen though

We can take AZ to court if we think they have been negotiating in bad faith but I don't think that is a proper basis for punishing another country that happens to have done a better deal.

25-03-2021 03:03PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

If there's such a clear cut case of negotiating in bad faith why haven't the Commission hauled AZ into the courts for contract breach instead of being judge and jury in terms of applying an export ban in terms of their intrepretation of it?

I would say they will in time. The first priority however is getting the vaccines and going the court route would likely end up with court order and counter suits and doses tied up pending court decisions to release. The way the UK narrative is spun you would swear it was the UK who had exported 40 million vaccines and the EU who had exported zero

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 03:07PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

We can take AZ to court if we think they have been negotiating in bad faith but I don't think that is a proper basis for punishing another country that happens to have done a better deal.

The AZ/UK contract has no bearing on the AZ/EU contract unless specifically stated in the contract. The AZ/EU contract actually specifically states AZ has no other contracts which effect their contract with the EU.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say they will in time. The first priority however is getting the vaccines and going the court route would likely end up with court order and counter suits and doses tied up pending court decisions to release. The way the UK narrative is spun you would swear it was the UK who had exported 40 million vaccines and the EU who had exported zero

Though, of course, it is not the EU doing the exporting; it is AZ.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:09PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The AZ/UK contract has no bearing on the AZ/EU contract unless specifically stated in the contract. The AZ/EU contract actually specifically states AZ has no other contracts which effect their contract with the EU.

It does have if the EU is preventing AZ fulfilling the AZ/UK contract or proposing to do so.

25-03-2021 03:12PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

We can take AZ to court if we think they have been negotiating in bad faith but I don't think that is a proper basis for punishing another country that happens to have done a better deal.

If you went to local car dealer and asked him to try to find a particular car and he said "I will try my best and I can guarantee you no one else has first call if I find one, and will call you as soon as anything changes". Then you see it in the showroom the next day and he tells you he sold it to your neighbour because he told him he gets first choice on all cars, do you think you would be happy? And do you think it will be good in the long term for AZ to be known as the dodgy car dealer of big pharma in the worlds 2nd biggest market?

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 03:13PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

It does have if the EU is preventing AZ fulfilling the AZ/UK contract or proposing to do so.

Why would the EU care about a contract between a third country and a company. It's not up to the EU to bend over backwards to accommodate any contract that doesn't involve them.

25-03-2021 03:14PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Though, of course, it is not the EU doing the exporting; it is AZ.

Its mostly Pfizer in fact

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 03:15PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

It does have if the EU is preventing AZ fulfilling the AZ/UK contract or proposing to do so.

The EU would be enforcing its contract with AZ, much the same as the UK is doing preventing the export of doses produced in the UK. It is for AZ to fulfill contracts to all their customers.

Bit cynical · 25-03-2021 03:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you went to local car dealer and asked him to try to find a particular car and he said "I will try my best and I can guarantee you no one else has first call if I find one, and will call you as soon as anything changes". Then you see it in the showroom the next day and he tells you he sold it to your neighbour because he told him he gets first choice on all cars, do you think you would be happy? And do you think it will be good in the long term for AZ to be known as the dodgy car dealer of big pharma in the worlds 2nd biggest market?

Yes but that would be your dispute with the dealer and you would have a right to take him to court. However until the case was settled in court you would not be able to prevent him from selling another car to your neighbour or have any claim on that car he has already sold.

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 03:22PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes but that would be your dispute with the dealer and you would have a right to take him to court. However until the case was settled in court you would not be able to prevent him from selling another car to your neighbour or have any claim on that car he has already sold.

I think in this case it is not so much selling another car to your neighbour, it's more like selling the same car to your neighbour which they also sold to you.

25-03-2021 03:23PM

murphaph wrote: »

The EU needs to rapidly increase its own capabilities. Mrs. Merkel said the same yesterday and I think she's right. The UK can bügger off with their self-serving contracts and nudge nudge wink wink arrangements with AZ. Their faux offers of generosity (what surplus vaccine???) is just designed for domestic consumption to make the inhabitants feel better about their greed.

AZ should be blacklisted from EU contracts in further wherever possible.

ignoring your rather childish jingoism there, that is exactly what the EU should be doing.

It's what the UK did.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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