What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

24-03-2021 07:12PM

astrofool wrote: »

Just watching the BBC right now, and the EU problem is put as "getting vaccines into arms" as if it's a rollout problem rather than a supply issue caused by AZ messing about the EU. Thierry Breton put it most elegantly that if the pharma companies were sending out the vaccines as contracted, then the EU and UK vaccination rate would be the same.

EU already had the manufacturing and funding for pharma companies, the UK didn't, hence a lot of the difference in funding, the EU is spending that per capita all the time.

Luckily for the world, the EU isn't driven by 'GREED' to the same level that Boris has been.

Some of the EU problem is delayed rollout, there are still numerous countries that have suspended AZ and vaccine hesitancy has been reported in France and Germany where people (including health workers) have refused AZ when offered. Its small compared to supply problems but it is an issue

fly_agaric · 24-03-2021 08:15PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

So spending 7 times less isn't being cheap???

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c9bbc753-97fb-493a-bbb6-dd97a7c4b807

These figures [FT ones quoted on the thread before] come from an outside estimate by a single company (I think), which must be tough to do. I don't think the governments involved have ever worked out such figures and provided them publically (would not be a need for a research/analysis company to try and winkle them out from open sources if they had).

There's also some problems I can think of with making comparisons and drawing conclusions from them, e.g. if EU had a larger industry in this area (vaccines) and did not need to do as much? I don't know the answer and bring no expertise here...my interest in this story is purely because of Covid + wondering when I might get a vaccine!

The US/EU comparison is most relevant.
It is true that Trump gave vast amounts of money to the pharmaceutical industry (he was very into govt. "welfare" cheques and tax breaks for big companies absent the pandemic).

However I don't think the US located industry has out-produced the EU, has it?
Rather, the US has used a combination of the strong hold it has over these companies as the world's richest market for their products and main source of income, the "warp speed" money and the use of US govt. powers to make sure the vaccine they produce locally is all destined for the US until the government decides otherwise.

When it comes to hard power of that type, the EU is not at the same level as the US.
There would need to have been a series of decisions taken last year IMO for it and member states to try & use what
powers they do have to entice &/or strong-arm companies into producing for the EU first out of their EU locations.
That would have required giving the companies more money, and binding them more strongly
(e.g. using the EUs trade related powers to ensure they would be prevented from exporting Covid-19 vaccines right from the beginning).

It would have also gone down like a bucket of cold sick internationally given how selfish and amoral it is and fact the other big Western economic "bloc" (US) was already certain to follow that path under Trump. And again the EU/member states are not the US, and can't just shrug off the reaction to such policies from others as easily. People can be cynical about morality at such levels, image, "global" opinion, or wanting to be seen as an altrusit rather than greedy etc., but it does affect such decisions.

astrofool · 24-03-2021 09:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Some of the EU problem is delayed rollout, there are still numerous countries that have suspended AZ and vaccine hesitancy has been reported in France and Germany where people (including health workers) have refused AZ when offered. Its small compared to supply problems but it is an issue

Only true for some countries, and not for Ireland or Denmark and lots of other countries, where the limitation has purely been supply (where the UK has been hoarding the supply). BBC making out like the problem is the internal vaccine distribution, which is far from the case, and really only an issue in some countries with AZ due to all the issues they've had.

Call me Al · 25-03-2021 09:43AM

So Irish times are reporting today that as per AstraZeneca 10mill of the "stash" in Italy is for COVAX and the balance is for the EU market..

And yet they still leave questions unanswered.
And i still find myself doubting their honesty and integrity as a company.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/discovery-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-in-italy-sparks-eu-ire-1.4519294?mode=amp

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 09:51AM

Call me Al wrote: »

So Irish times are reporting today that as per AstraZeneca 10mill of the "stash" in Italy is for COVAX and the balance is for the EU market..

And yet they still leave questions unanswered.
And i still find myself doubting their honesty and integrity as a company.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/discovery-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-in-italy-sparks-eu-ire-1.4519294?mode=amp

It's not the first time they have found millions of doses behind the sofa!
At least they are non related to the halix plant, so there's potentially more doses available when that gets approved. Once they don't say, oh btw they were all for Covax.

Roger_007 · 25-03-2021 09:54AM

JTMan wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1374775467279024137

I wonder why there are no hackles raised in the UK about the Indian ban on exports, (including to the UK), while they are going ballistic about the possibility of a ban by the EU.
Is it purely a Brexit issue?

Red Silurian · 25-03-2021 09:57AM

Stark wrote: »

I hate that guy, he loves his ALL CAPS scaremongering.

Most reporters use caps for breaking and COVAX is supposed to be all caps

Hurrache · 25-03-2021 10:51AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I wonder why there are no hackles raised in the UK about the Indian ban on exports, (including to the UK), while they are going ballistic about the possibility of a ban by the EU.
Is it purely a Brexit issue?

There's a narrative that the EU are trying to both punish the UK for leaving, and make Brexit look a failure so as other countries don't leave too, so they're using the vaccine thing as one of the methods to do so.

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 11:05AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

It's not the first time they have found millions of doses behind the sofa!
At least they are non related to the halix plant, so there's potentially more doses available when that gets approved. Once they don't say, oh btw they were all for Covax.

Why do you think they are not related to the Halix plant? I know they say the COVAX doses were produced elsewhere* and only sent to Italy for F&F but I haven't seen the same said of the EU doses.

* although I haven't seen where mentioned, is it being produced anywhere apart from EU, UK, US and India (with the latter three all currently imposing export bans)?

robinph · 25-03-2021 11:15AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do you think they are not related to the Halix plant? I know they say the COVAX doses were produced elsewhere* and only sent to Italy for F&F but I haven't seen the same said of the EU doses.

* although I haven't seen where mentioned, is it being produced anywhere apart from EU, UK, US and India (with the latter three all currently imposing export bans)?

Australia:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/23/australian-drug-regulator-releases-first-batches-of-locally-made-astrazeneca-vaccine

Joe_ Public · 25-03-2021 11:19AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I wonder why there are no hackles raised in the UK about the Indian ban on exports, (including to the UK), while they are going ballistic about the possibility of a ban by the EU.
Is it purely a Brexit issue?

The other thing about this is that the deal with SII was established to serve low and middle income countries in Africa, Asia and elsewhere. They were certainly never intended to make up any shortfall in the uk supply so i'd guess it's not something they could really make a song and dance about, even if they wanted.

robinph · 25-03-2021 11:27AM

robinph wrote: »

Australia:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/23/australian-drug-regulator-releases-first-batches-of-locally-made-astrazeneca-vaccine

Then just stuck another random country on a different continent to Australia into google to see what popped up and got this article which mentions local production being setup in Argentina, Mexico, Brazil and China:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/astrazeneca-will-hand-covid-19-shot-production-rights-to-mexico-argentina-report

That article from August and no telling which of those facilities ended up being setup without more Googling and probably in different languages which I don't understand, but would expect there to be more than just Australia that succeeded in getting a plant up and running.

Edit: Here is a map showing local manufacturing deals by Astra Zeneca:
https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/dam/az/covid-19/media/56498_AZ_Map_Update_SS_Media.pdf

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2021 11:32AM

robinph wrote: »

Then just stuck another random country on a different continent to Australia into google to see what popped up and got this article which mentions local production being setup in Argentina, Mexico, Brazil and China:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/astrazeneca-will-hand-covid-19-shot-production-rights-to-mexico-argentina-report

That article from August and no telling which of those facilities ended up being setup without more Googling and probably in different languages which I don't understand, but would expect there to be more than just Australia that succeeded in getting a plant up and running.

I was going to say, it would seem mad to be shipping the substance from Australia to Italy and then sending it back across the globe to countries being catered for through COVAX.

Anyway, my main point was that it seems the EU doses in Italy are the Halix produced stock.

murphaph · 25-03-2021 11:32AM

Is this the first admission by the UK government that they did in fact attempt to tie AZ into an exclusivity deal (an export ban by any other name)?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/25/eu-leaders-push-back-against-blocs-plans-to-halt-covid-vaccine-export

But the UK health secretary, Matt Hancock, has warned the EU that the UK had contract law on its side. “I believe that free trading nations follow the law of contracts,” he told the Financial Times. “They have a ‘best efforts’ contract and we have an exclusivity deal.”

That FT article:
https://www.ft.com/content/da800a0d-cd27-48d1-a06f-d0c49599c5d2

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 11:34AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do you think they are not related to the Halix plant? I know they say the COVAX doses were produced elsewhere* and only sent to Italy for F&F but I haven't seen the same said of the EU doses.

* although I haven't seen where mentioned, is it being produced anywhere apart from EU, UK, US and India (with the latter three all currently imposing export bans)?

AZ stated they were EU doses found in Italy and are due to be delivered to EU countries by the end of the month.
This was before the applied for approval for the halix plant, so there's no way they could be approved and delivered that soon from an unapproved plant. So my take is, it's doses from the only approved EU plant.
Hopefully we get more than 9,600 doses from them this week!

josip · 25-03-2021 11:40AM

murphaph wrote: »

Is this the first admission by the UK government that they did in fact attempt to tie AZ into an exclusivity deal (an export ban by any other name)?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/25/eu-leaders-push-back-against-blocs-plans-to-halt-covid-vaccine-export

That FT article:
https://www.ft.com/content/da800a0d-cd27-48d1-a06f-d0c49599c5d2

If AZ signed an exclusivity deal with the UK, then did they enter the contract with the EU in bad faith?
Is 'bad faith' a concept in EU contract law?

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 11:40AM

murphaph wrote: »

Is this the first admission by the UK government that they did in fact attempt to tie AZ into an exclusivity deal (an export ban by any other name)?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/25/eu-leaders-push-back-against-blocs-plans-to-halt-covid-vaccine-export

That FT article:
https://www.ft.com/content/da800a0d-cd27-48d1-a06f-d0c49599c5d2

This coming from a country breaching international law is funny.

But anyway, the UK signed a contract with the UK division of AZ and the EU signed a contract with the EU division of AZ. I'm not sure there's any legal recourse. If the EU block exports to the UK, if AZ breach their UK contract, that has no legal bearing in the EU.

Plenty of countries issue arms and weapons export bans on certain counties, the UN has band in place for north korea etc... Contracts get broken all the times, I'm sure that's the reason for having forced Majeure clauses?

murphaph · 25-03-2021 11:49AM

Yeah but it's not an act of God if you sign a contract offering exclusivity with one party and then sign another offering best efforts. Clearly you can't make a best effort if you compel yourself to deliver exclusively to someone else.

AZ are gangsters. They have form for being economical with the truth but this is next level stuff.

The EU should focus more on getting domestic production of domestically developed vaccines under our control expanded. To hell with the UK. Slithery shower of you know whats.

astrofool · 25-03-2021 12:08PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

This coming from a country breaching international law is funny.

This international legal binding contract that we signed is awful so we're going to break it, but this contract we have here with this here company, that we haven't told anyone about, is great, so we're going to insist that international law abides by it. Err, actually, we'll just ensure that it is 20% abided by, that's a law thing isn't it?

I feel we're just a step away from Boris turning into Daniel Plainview and screaming "I drink your milkshake!" at the top of his lungs.

BonnieSituation · 25-03-2021 12:16PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The other thing about this is that the deal with SII was established to serve low and middle income countries in Africa, Asia and elsewhere. They were certainly never intended to make up any shortfall in the uk supply so i'd guess it's not something they could really make a song and dance about, even if they wanted.

Tbf, the UK could make a song and dance about anything.

Red Silurian · 25-03-2021 12:30PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The other thing about this is that the deal with SII was established to serve low and middle income countries in Africa, Asia and elsewhere. They were certainly never intended to make up any shortfall in the uk supply so i'd guess it's not something they could really make a song and dance about, even if they wanted.

If this is the case then how can India legally withhold exports?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 25-03-2021 12:36PM

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah but it's not an act of God if you sign a contract offering exclusivity with one party and then sign another offering best efforts. Clearly you can't make a best effort if you compel yourself to deliver exclusively to someone else.

AZ are gangsters. They have form for being economical with the truth but this is next level stuff.

The EU should focus more on getting domestic production of domestically developed vaccines under our control expanded. To hell with the UK. Slithery shower of you know whats.

As far as the EU are concerned it doesnt matter what AZ has with the uk.

AZ promised best effort and that there are no other contracts that would impede their ability to deliver.

For what its worth the UK contract signed 28 August (one day after the EU signs a contract with AZ) only says best reasonable efforts. Exclusive is not mentioned.

astrofool · 25-03-2021 12:40PM

Red Silurian wrote: »

If this is the case then how can India legally withhold exports?

Could you expand upon the question a bit?

Countries set their own laws (which can be adjudicated centrally like in the EU), and then there's international law, which can also be interpreted differently by different countries, and be broken due to conflicts and trade embargoes. People don't realise that MNC spend a lot of time working directly with governments of the world to keep them on side and keep their production running smoothly, as do governments of the world to make sure working with each other goes smoothly, when a country takes advantage of the system, other countries will retaliate accordingly. A country declaring national emergency often gives them carte blanche to do whatever is needed to get through the emergency (which can have a later knock on effect to attracting business into that country if the business feels it will be negatively effected by spurious emergency claims, e.g. trumps "emergency" wall building).

Joe_ Public · 25-03-2021 12:52PM

Red Silurian wrote: »

If this is the case then how can India legally withhold exports?

I'm not a trade expert tbh, so i just assume the Indian government can introduce such a measure if it deems fit. Likewise, there wasn't anything technically wrong with the uk receiving millions of doses from sii, only that would run counter to what they claimed when the deal with SII was signed - that it was intended to supply low and middle income countries. Including India itself, of course. The Indian government has been locked in a diplomacy battle with China over vaccines, both giving away as well as selling millions of doses. I believe that India had actually exported more vaccines than it had administered to its own people and has come under a lot of criticism internally. Hence the move to ban, i think.

Strazdas · 25-03-2021 01:09PM

josip wrote: »

If AZ signed an exclusivity deal with the UK, then did they enter the contract with the EU in bad faith?
Is 'bad faith' a concept in EU contract law?

They clearly overpromised. They were never going to be in a position to supply the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. Whether this was down to incompetence or greed remains to be seen.

wexfordman2 · 25-03-2021 01:23PM

Strazdas wrote: »

They clearly overpromised. They were never going to be in a position to supply the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. Whether this was down to incompetence or greed remains to be seen.

Dare i say it, if it was clearly undeliverable, does than not simply indicate fraud ? They took orders for something they knew they could not deliver ?

25-03-2021 01:23PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As far as the EU are concerned it doesnt matter what AZ has with the uk.

AZ promised best effort and that there are no other contracts that would impede their ability to deliver.

For what its worth the UK contract signed 28 August (one day after the EU signs a contract with AZ) only says best reasonable efforts. Exclusive is not mentioned.

If it was exclusive, how have we managed to give 137,000 doses in Ireland?

Think about that for a second.

Strazdas · 25-03-2021 01:26PM

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Dare i say it, if it was clearly undeliverable, does than not simply indicate fraud ? They took orders for something they knew they could not deliver ?

I'm not sure if I'd use the word 'fraud', but it's definite incompetence. Even their deliveries to the UK have been on the patchy side.

Melanchthon · 25-03-2021 01:32PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm not a trade expert tbh, so i just assume the Indian government can introduce such a measure if it deems fit. Likewise, there wasn't anything technically wrong with the uk receiving millions of doses from sii, only that would run counter to what they claimed when the deal with SII was signed - that it was intended to supply low and middle income countries. Including India itself, of course. The Indian government has been locked in a diplomacy battle with China over vaccines, both giving away as well as selling millions of doses. I believe that India had actually exported more vaccines than it had administered to its own people and has come under a lot of criticism internally. Hence the move to ban, i think.

I think there is also internal pressure because the UK delivery, and probably the order the EU were going to set up were talked about as doses that were going to expire soon (possibly an excuse to make it sound better) which brought pressure because then it highlighted that the Indian program should have been able to use the doses even if they were expiring soon.

I really don't follow Indian news though so could be wrong here

eoinbn · 25-03-2021 01:38PM

Strazdas wrote: »

They clearly overpromised. They were never going to be in a position to supply the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. Whether this was down to incompetence or greed remains to be seen.

They are lucky that the US has delayed the approval process and doesn't really require AZ. I would imagine they had a similar delivery timetable in the US - 120m by the end of Q1 and 300m by the end of Q2. It seems they will have 50m available by the end or April which is very similar to their revised plan in Europe. They are way behind where they had planned to be for their two biggest customers.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Comments