What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

24-03-2021 11:26AM

Call me Al wrote: »

I know Italy is fill and finish.
But the other Belgian site is manufacturing, so either they are claiming access to both EU manufacturing sites, Halix has been dramatically overachieving, or it's all spin.

I had read that there were 10million in Halix that the UK were claiming as theirs.

The requirement for 2nd doses will now be increasingly arising in the UK, as well as their u50s. It will be interesting to see how they will coordinate this.

my guess is that there is a lot of spin involved. ournalists all love a bit of "1+1=whatever we need it to make to create a story".

astrofool · 24-03-2021 11:28AM

Call me Al wrote: »

The requirement for 2nd doses will now be increasingly arising in the UK, as well as their u50s. It will be interesting to see how they will coordinate this.

I doubt there will be any coordination, just blame the EU for being meanies.

They will also try and say this with a straight face (as will posters on here), only to be undermined by on of the tory MP's (probably Johnson again) saying it's all a ruse. Actually, it'll probably be a "The Sun" exclusive.

Dyr · 24-03-2021 11:32AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

The dispute mechanism with AZ is a pointless exercise that just has to be gone through, AZ couldn’t change anything substantially even if they wanted to.

Decision on blocking exports is a European council decision, happening later this week. All countries get together and make a vote on it. Hopefully they decide to stop carrying non EU countries and put EU citizens first. If you consider the EU rollout a shambles you agree with the approach I am assuming as you are comparing a baseline against others who have done the same.

Interesting idea, What I would like to see out of the council meeting is for the EU, for once, to admit that they got something completely wrong and they're now going to change course, rather than more face saving sabre rattling about export bans that will backfire spectacularly.

Would also be nice to see them decide a path of action that isnt dictated by German politics for once but lets not wish for the impossible

titan18 · 24-03-2021 11:33AM

Theory going around that those 30m were being kept as the export ban was due to run out on 31st March and then they'd have been exported if it wasn't renewed. Seems plausible with how AZ have acted so far.

24-03-2021 11:34AM

astrofool wrote: »

I doubt there will be any coordination, just blame the EU for being meanies.

what exactly do you think the EU is doing with all this reciprocity bull****?

Melanchthon · 24-03-2021 11:39AM

astrofool wrote: »

It also helps to do this covertly, which it looks like the British were trying to do and have now been caught with their pants around their ankles, all for the sake of getting a few weeks ahead of the EU. I don't think it will be worth it in the end (given they still have the highest death rate per capita in the EU, which is made even worse by being an island which can control it better than being on the continent).

If this is meant to be vaccines that were to be covertly supplied to the UK, why would they do it this way? The UK has fill and finish facilities right, which aren't operating at capacity most likely if only one UK plant is producing. They would ship vaccine product too the UK from the Netherlands/Belgium wouldn't they?
Why as well would they let such a huge amount of doses build up? It also doesn't make sense in terms of what the UK was saying and doing, ordering from India, warning of shortfalls in supply and so on? The 5 million (was to be 10) million doses from SI were a big deal.

It's already being mentioned but isn't this likely 3rd party and COVAX supply.

titan18 · 24-03-2021 11:41AM

Melanchthon wrote: »

If this is meant to be vaccines that were to be covertly supplied to the UK, why would they do it this way? The UK has fill and finish facilities right, which aren't operating at capacity most likely if only one UK plant is producing. They would ship vaccine product too the UK from the Netherlands/Belgium wouldn't they?
Why as well would they let such a huge amount of doses build up? It also doesn't make sense in terms of what the UK was saying and doing, ordering from India, warning of shortfalls in supply and so on? The 5 million (was to be 10) million doses from SI were a big deal.

It's already being mentioned but isn't this likely 3rd party and COVAX supply.

They wouldn't have been allowed export them out of the EU to the UK I'd say cos of the export mechanism that was introduced.

Wolf359f · 24-03-2021 11:45AM

Call me Al wrote: »

So are both EU manufacturing sites listed in the UK supply chain for their 100million doses, or just Halix?

I've seen UK govt ministers lay claim only to Halix.

Should the the Italian media be accurate, this BBC article is a load of complete gibberish.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/56483766

BBC article stating only a tiny amount came from EU plants while stating of the 90mil, half has already been supplied. They wouldn't be scaling back next month if they had over 30mil doses in stock in the UK.

Call me Al · 24-03-2021 11:45AM

astrofool wrote: »

I doubt there will be any coordination, just blame the EU for being meanies.

They will also try and say this with a straight face (as will posters on here), only to be undermined by on of the tory MP's (probably Johnson again) saying it's all a ruse. Actually, it'll probably be a "The Sun" exclusive.

Well no, because that would be admitting that they've been hugely reliant on EU manufactured AstraZeneca. It's all because of India's 5 million of course, lol!

And maybe the production can be ramped up in the UKs 2 sites to meet the supply need generated by the lead of 3 or maybe 4 factories. It's a big ask though..

astrofool · 24-03-2021 11:47AM

Aegir wrote: »

what exactly do you think the EU is doing with all this reciprocity bull****?

Expand on this a little?

It's been "interesting" watching Johnson "picking up the phone" to the EU leaders asking them not to block exports, only for Merkel to shoot him down, then minutes later revert to "actually we'll agree on getting 20% of the EU supply". Caught badly.

Melanchthon · 24-03-2021 11:48AM

titan18 wrote: »

They wouldn't have been allowed export them out of the EU to the UK I'd say cos of the export mechanism that was introduced.

Maybe but it would still be strange, the number of doses is just too high to be the UK I think, also aren't people saying that there was still fairly significant export after the export mechanism was introduced?
Additionally, why store it in Italy, it would make a lot more sense if it was destined for the UK to be shipping it back to either Netherlands or Belgium and storing it there, particularly after Italy blocked the Australia shipment.

It's going to be COVAX etc stuff, maybe a million or two doses of UK claimed stuff but can't see it being more.

Sweet.Science · 24-03-2021 11:48AM

So after all this will more vaccines be arriving imminently ?

RobMc59 · 24-03-2021 11:50AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

That’s reasonable and understandable if put myself in your shoes, yet would you agree that this “British” vaccine has been a total dumpster fire of issues from production to testing to clot issues to efficacy against existing and new strains?

Something that “EU” vaccines don’t have

Btw why do Brits feel need to paint the Union Jack on everything these days? Is it some sort of psychological admission that country is being run into ground by Tories and instead of blaming them it’s easier to wrap oneself in flag and blame them foreigners again.

As far as I'm aware all vaccines have varying degrees of efficiency against emerging strains which is something we're all probably going to have to get used to in the future.The Oxford team have stated they are aware of this and can hopefully develop future vaccines able to combat this.
AZ have been drastically over optimistic and over estimated their production yields or have been hit with unforseen technical problems.All of which is no excuse to expectant customers.
British people are as patriotic as anyone else although the likes of Mark francois are embarrassing.There are always going to be areas of irreconcilable differences of opinion between British and Irish posters and I have no problem with that,indeed,differing opinions encourage healthy debate.Its a shame when this healthy debate is stifled.
In the absence of a complete reversal of brexit, I'd prefer a closer relationship with the EU although as I've always maintained believe brussels has too much influence on the day to day running of EU member states.

astrofool · 24-03-2021 11:51AM

Melanchthon wrote: »

It's going to be COVAX etc stuff, maybe a million or two doses of UK claimed stuff but can't see it being more.

So with this line of thought, the UK will only be taking 2M of the EU manufactured supply destined for the third world, how gracious of them.

24-03-2021 11:55AM

astrofool wrote: »

Expand on this a little?
.

sorry, i thought that was pretty obvious.

Von Der Layen and other commissioners keep talking about the number of vaccines exported by the EU, but none have come the other way. They are also banging on about the UK factories being included in the EU contract.

It's their way of deflecting the blame from their own incompetance and quite clearly, people are falling for it.

24-03-2021 11:59AM

Aegir wrote: »

sorry, i thought that was pretty obvious.

Von Der Layen and other commissioners keep talking about the number of vaccines exported by the EU, but none have come the other way. They are also banging on about the UK factories being included in the EU contract.

It's their way of deflecting the blame from their own incompetance and quite clearly, people are falling for it.

Did the EU sign a deal with AZ the day before the UK?
Did the deal state no other contract would impinge on the EUs?
Did the deal call out 2 UK and 2 EU sites specifically in fulfilling the EU contract?
Did AZ start using the EU plants to supply the UK?
Did AZ suddenly state the UK plants could not be used to supply EU?
Did AZ continue to use one of the EU plants to supply the UK and not apply for approval for that plant to supply the EU?

Melanchthon · 24-03-2021 12:01PM

astrofool wrote: »

So with this line of thought, the UK will only be taking 2M of the EU manufactured supply destined for the third world, how gracious of them.

Why don't you address the rest of the post? I very well could be wrong but this seems to most likely explanation too me.
Particularly because if Astra are being dodgy this wouldn't have been way to do it or the place to store it.

josip · 24-03-2021 12:02PM

Why did it take a hunch based on AZ silence and an EU inspection to find these?
Who works in Halix and the Italian fill and finish, the SAS?
Wouldn't some worker there, seeing the skullduggery and aware of the vaccine shortages from AZ, whistleblow?

murphaph · 24-03-2021 12:14PM

Aegir wrote: »

sorry, i thought that was pretty obvious.

Von Der Layen and other commissioners keep talking about the number of vaccines exported by the EU, but none have come the other way. They are also banging on about the UK factories being included in the EU contract.

It's their way of deflecting the blame from their own incompetance and quite clearly, people are falling for it.

People aren't complete fools. We can understand the concept of a problem having more than one cause. The AZ carry on is one cause of the slower than UK EU roll out. Other causes include Sanofi unexpectedly letting us down, production problems at Pfizer Belgium early on, EU commission not acting on getting an agreed playbook agreed earlier, so VdL wouldn't need to go back to the member states so often during negotiations, actual member state failings in distributing the vaccine (Ireland seems to be able to inject whatever it gets but that's not the case everywhere).

The AZ issue is part of the problem, not all of the problem. If the EU gets its way, AZ will become a UK problem too as their roll out will slow down (especially as India have blocked exports to developed countries)

Strazdas · 24-03-2021 12:15PM

Aegir wrote: »

sorry, i thought that was pretty obvious.

Von Der Layen and other commissioners keep talking about the number of vaccines exported by the EU, but none have come the other way. They are also banging on about the UK factories being included in the EU contract.

It's their way of deflecting the blame from their own incompetance and quite clearly, people are falling for it.

We're now finding out though that AstraZeneca were never up to the job of providing the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. The English right wing media have been ranting and raving about the poorly drawn up contract between the EC and AZ, but the emerging story this week is of just how useless and inept AZ are at fulfilling their actual contracts.

Melanchthon · 24-03-2021 12:18PM

Strazdas wrote: »

We're now finding out though that AstraZeneca were never up to the job of providing the UK and EU with sufficient numbers of vaccines. The English right wing media have been ranting and raving about the poorly drawn up contract between the EC and AZ, but the emerging story this week is of just how useless and inept AZ are at fulfilling their actual contracts.

There is nothing stopping both being true though?

Strazdas · 24-03-2021 12:23PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

There is nothing stopping both being true though?

Absolutely, but the British press only wants to talk about one : EU incompetence. Criticism of AstraZeneca is strictly verboten (and in fact if you dare criticise AZ as a company, you are "politicising the issues" and "playing politics").

astrofool · 24-03-2021 12:28PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Why don't you address the rest of the post? I very well could be wrong but this seems to most likely explanation too me.
Particularly because if Astra are being dodgy this wouldn't have been way to do it or the place to store it.

The rest of the post was hear'say that doesn't need a response, the important bit was you thinking that the UK deserves vaccine that was destined for COVAX (if the hear'say is true) while the EU gets none.

You can't really criticise the EU too much if that's the level of skullduggery being stooped to, the only response the EU can really make is to nationalise the vaccine production and stop supplying the UK entirely. The number of vaccines being produced won't change, the difference is that more of them will end up in EU citizens arms.

What's fallen apart in the last few weeks:
AstraZeneca being in any way competent
Contracts being signed earlier
UK being self sufficient in supply due to a great vaccine task force in getting their domestic supply up and running

24-03-2021 12:29PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Absolutely, but the British press only wants to talk about one : EU incompetence. Criticism of AstraZeneca is strictly verboten (and in fact if you dare criticise AZ as a company, you are "politicising the issues" and "playing politics").

The British Press?

That’s not a user I have seen post, could you print me in their direction?

24-03-2021 12:49PM

See below

Deleted User wrote: »

Did the EU sign a deal with AZ the day before the UK?
the EU signed a deal the day before "A" deal was signed with AZ, yes

Did the deal state no other contract would impinge on the EUs?
No

Did the deal call out 2 UK and 2 EU sites specifically in fulfilling the EU contract?
not for the initial batch of doses, no it did not. It also only lists them as potential suppliers, it is up to AZ to advise the final names of the contracted suppliers.

Did AZ start using the EU plants to supply the UK?
I don't know, how many plants do the EU own?

Did AZ suddenly state the UK plants could not be used to supply EU?
No, it was included in the initial negotiations, which is why they AZ could not include them in the initial doses. There was nothing sudden about it.

Did AZ continue to use one of the EU plants to supply the UK and not apply for approval for that plant to supply the EU?
was the Halix plant included in the initial contract?

Melanchthon · 24-03-2021 12:53PM

astrofool wrote: »

The rest of the post was hear'say that doesn't need a response, the important bit was you thinking that the UK deserves vaccine that was destined for COVAX (if the hear'say is true) while the EU gets none.

Where the hell did I say that, I said possibly a million or two of UK claimed doses. I did not say they deserved it or that it was being from the COVAX stocks.

There's a weird thing about these two threads, there is constant talk about the British media, brexiteers, tabloids and anti EU trolls. Thing is the people flying of the handle and going on about "da Brits" and getting emotional are the posters that seem to be more aligned with The EU Commission and VdL than the Irish government (you saw Micheal Martin's statement right
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtenews/status/1373994191622176782 )

fly_agaric · 24-03-2021 01:05PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Maybe but it would still be strange, the number of doses is just too high to be the UK

Would it not keep UK a fully satisfied customer if they got all or most of it?
They are due 100m in total aren't they + company still seems to be behind on it, even if they've done better (proportionally) than the EU. Getting bulk of such an amount over next few weeks would take them close to (guessing as there's no firm figures on it anywhere really) 40-50m doses delivered to UK coming up to the middle of the year (?) - so on track.

Melanchthon wrote: »

It's going to be COVAX etc stuff, maybe a million or two doses of UK claimed stuff but can't see it being more.

Really? I wonder how many committments the company is trying hard to meet all at the same time (2021) out of Europe (i.e. UK/EU) based production (100m UK, 300m EU - do you know what else there is?)

astrofool · 24-03-2021 01:06PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Where the hell did I say that, I said possibly a million or two of UK claimed doses. I did not say they deserved it or that it was being from the COVAX stocks.

There's a weird thing about these two threads, there is constant talk about the British media, brexiteers, tabloids and anti EU trolls. Thing is the people flying of the handle and going on about "da Brits" and getting emotional are the posters that seem to be more aligned with The EU Commission and VdL than the Irish government (you saw Micheal Martin's statement right
https://mobile.twitter.com/rtenews/status/1373994191622176782 )

"UK claimed doses" implies that the UK was claiming doses. So you're in agreement that the UK shouldn't get any of those vaccines? Great.

Pete_Cavan · 24-03-2021 01:25PM

Aegir wrote: »

See below

You really have to stop posting things you know to be untrue.

The EU AZ APA states;

13.1. AstraZeneca. AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the Commission and the Participating Member States that:

(e) it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent in any material respect with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement;

So yes, the the deal does state AZ has no other contract would impinge on the EUs.

With regard manufacturing, it says "AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Initial Doses in the EU". It also says "may manufacture the Vaccine in non-EU facilities, if appropriate, to accelerate supply of the Vaccine in Europe". It then names UK sites in Schedule A. This clearly does not state that UK plants could not be used to supply EU.

24-03-2021 01:30PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You really have to stop posting things you know to be untrue.

The EU AZ APA states;

So yes, the the deal does state AZ has no other contract would impinge on the EUs.

With regard manufacturing, it says "AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Initial Doses in the EU". It also says "may manufacture the Vaccine in non-EU facilities, if appropriate, to accelerate supply of the Vaccine in Europe". It then names UK sites in Schedule A. This clearly does not state that UK plants could not be used to supply EU.

So the Eu state that they want the initial doses made in the Eu. Astra Zeneca agrees that it has not signed any contracts that would affect that.

Where is your problem?

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Comments