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The way forward for LC2021

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    That's what it looks like to me too. I'd just be concerned about how accredited grades and exam grades are treated, two separate bell curves? One for each with a quota? Hard to not see inflation with both and exams this easy. You can only tighten a marking scheme so much in some subjects.

    Results should match last year's because there will be a lot of students who will be using their points this year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    That's what it looks like to me too. I'd just be concerned about how accredited grades and exam grades are treated, two separate bell curves? One for each with a quota? Hard to not see inflation with both and exams this easy. You can only tighten a marking scheme so much in some subjects.

    Yes a lot of the science subjects, answers are right or wrong, not much middle ground in physics. I'm actually amazed at the level of choice they are getting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Results should match last year's because there will be a lot of students who will be using their points this year.

    How? I teach a right or wrong answer type of exam, I'd frequently have kids get 25/25 or 60/60 in an area they like and have studied hard for, as Rainbowtrout said this will be particularly prevelent in sciences. You can change the weighting sure but a large number of kids, with the extra time ect will just get full marks on a lot of questions so weighting won't helo. You can't mark a right question wrong to suit a curve. Much easier to downgrade and accredited grade. I'm correcting this year, I look forward to multiple changes to the marking scheme.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?

    Actually excellent point, I'd only been of two datasets, I forgot they overlap and also sometimes don't. I'd love some form of explaination as to how it's going to be done.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 728 ✭✭✭Newbie20


    Actually excellent point, I'd only been of two datasets, I forgot they overlap and also sometimes don't. I'd love some form of explaination as to how it's going to be done.

    I think unfortunately we know at this stage the answer to that question - That they don’t know yet themselves!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?

    This is what I was warning against 2 weeks ago.
    There has to be a record level of grade inflation this year. They might try and work the two off each other before coming to a grade for either!


    I mentioned they could possibly have sight on the 2 grades and adjust both/either accordingly to suit 1 overall bell curve. For a finish I rang the Union, after much explaining myself as to how the SEC could -in theory- make your lower grade become the higher, they got back to me and assured me that exam grade will not be used to moderate the accredited grade. So I'll take the Department at their word...

    Biology will now only be marked out of 290 marks instead of usual 400. I know some on here will defend the integrity of SEC to the death, but after the Hullabaloo a couple of years ago (nearly 100% increase in H1s , examiners told to mark answers 'very differently' after the first samples revealed a major skew, heated words ensued... allegedly). Some subjects it will be impossible to fit to a bell.
    Others -as usual- like Music, English, Art, possibly language orals will get the usual treatment.

    But hey! Maybe just let the cards fall where they fall and let CAO oversubscription lottery take care of it.

    Maybe it would have been easier to cancel the leaving cert and just work the auld 'bell curve magic' on predicted grades only.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Leaving Cert: Fewer questions and more choice under new changes to exams

    An absolute joke. In history, for instance, they only have to answer two essays (100 marks each) and one document (100 marks) in the same amount of time, 2hr 50 min. Rather than 3 essays (100 marks each) and one document (100 marks).

    How are the kids who have been working since week one in 5th year now going to be able to show that knowledge and preparation, to stand out? My experience of the 'Bell Curve' in SEC marking amounted to messages such as "accept [such a thing] as an answer". And there wasn't much of that. If other people have a different

    The answer, for me, seems straightforward enough: the kids who prepared 4-5-page essays x 3 will now have to prepare 6-7-page essays x 2 to stand out. In other words, all those essays they've fine-tuned to have done in 40 minutes since week one in fifth year will have to be revised with 50% more added to them to complete in 60 minutes. Good students end up having more work to do because of this. "Fairness", my eye.

    The alternative is that the grade inflation here reaches Weimar Republic in November 1923 levels and H1s are given out like German marks. Are we expected to risk that, or push our students to up their workrate again?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭Treppen


    It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
    They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Treppen wrote: »
    It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
    They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!

    That's incorrect.

    From the guide to accredited grades:
    SEC Accredited Grades awarded to students in each subject based on schools’
    estimates of students’ likely performance in the 2021 examination and a
    national standardisation process.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Treppen wrote: »
    It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
    They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!
    Surely teacher grades will be based on this new shortened or more choice paper?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Treppen wrote: »
    This is what I was warning against 2 weeks ago.
    There has to be a record level of grade inflation this year. They might try and work the two off each other before coming to a grade for either!


    I mentioned they could possibly have sight on the 2 grades and adjust both/either accordingly to suit 1 overall bell curve. For a finish I rang the Union, after much explaining myself as to how the SEC could -in theory- make your lower grade become the higher, they got back to me and assured me that exam grade will not be used to moderate the accredited grade. So I'll take the Department at their word...

    Biology will now only be marked out of 290 marks instead of usual 400. I know some on here will defend the integrity of SEC to the death, but after the Hullabaloo a couple of years ago (nearly 100% increase in H1s , examiners told to mark answers 'very differently' after the first samples revealed a major skew, heated words ensued... allegedly). Some subjects it will be impossible to fit to a bell.
    Others -as usual- like Music, English, Art, possibly language orals will get the usual treatment.

    But hey! Maybe just let the cards fall where they fall and let CAO oversubscription lottery take care of it.

    Maybe it would have been easier to cancel the leaving cert and just work the auld 'bell curve magic' on predicted grades only.


    I don't believe for a minute that achieved grades will not be used to moderate accredited grades. A student who achieves a H6 but has been calculated at a H2 by their teacher will be marked down from that H2.

    We were told by the Unions last year that our league table of our students would be kept confidential for our own protection and we all know how that panned out.

    I'm anonymous here so I'll be honest. I developed my own algorithm last year. I compared my class results with end of unit tests with previous years class results with the same standard end of unit test with previous years LC results (yes it took time but there was no emotion involved) and scientifically calculated what each student would get based on that.
    I didn't consider ability/ temperament/ attendance or anything else. I can't predict how someone will do on a particular day and it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim that they can. I didn't inflate a single grade.
    Every single predicted grade that I gave remained unaltered.


    I had to grade my finest student at 22nd out of 24. She worked so hard but just struggled with the subject. She always gave 100%, always handed in assignments on time etc. but I had to give an honest grade.

    How did she feel upon seeing that I had thought she was 22nd best out of 24?
    How did I feel upon knowing that she thought that I had thought so little of her?

    This year we are told not to use a mathematical approach.
    Just use "judgement"
    Utter bull****!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Choochtown wrote: »

    I had to grade my finest student at 22nd out of 24. She worked so hard but just struggled with the subject. She always gave 100%, always handed in assignments on time etc. but I had to give an honest grade.

    How did she feel upon seeing that I had thought she was 22nd best out of 24?
    How did I feel upon knowing that she thought that I had thought so little of her?

    But it doesn't matter if she was the hardest worker in the class if she didn't have the natural ability in the subject. I'd presume she wasn't scoring the highest grade in the class if she ended up ranked at 22 out of 24. Students know where they are in the class. A student getting 49 is not going to expect to be ranked No. 1 no matter how hard they work if there are students getting 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc. They are aware that some students don't do a lot of work but have the ability to pull out a high grade without effort.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    How? I teach a right or wrong answer type of exam, I'd frequently have kids get 25/25 or 60/60 in an area they like and have studied hard for, as Rainbowtrout said this will be particularly prevelent in sciences. You can change the weighting sure but a large number of kids, with the extra time ect will just get full marks on a lot of questions so weighting won't helo. You can't mark a right question wrong to suit a curve. Much easier to downgrade and accredited grade. I'm correcting this year, I look forward to multiple changes to the marking scheme.

    I can imagine a lot of students doing extra questions too so that they can be marked out of their best ones. Particularly in the likes of biology, there's now plenty of time to do relatively few questions, so no harm doing an extra experiment/long question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    But it doesn't matter if she was the hardest worker in the class if she didn't have the natural ability in the subject. I'd presume she wasn't scoring the highest grade in the class if she ended up ranked at 22 out of 24. Students know where they are in the class. A student getting 49 is not going to expect to be ranked No. 1 no matter how hard they work if there are students getting 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc. They are aware that some students don't do a lot of work but have the ability to pull out a high grade without effort.

    Agree with you RT. (except for the bit about students knowing where they are in the class see point 2 below)

    I was trying to make 2 points there.

    1. There was no purpose served whatsoever by the Department going back on their word regarding giving students access to their grading within a class. That student didn't need to be told that her best efforts were only 22nd out of 24. All she needed access to was my predicted grade which I would still absolutely stand over.

    2. This year's guidance asks us to take into account "Performance on any class assessments, for example, tasks, questions" and
    "performance over the course of study including for example, assignments, projects and practical work"
    In my subject students (like that student) can do great work with tasks, practical work, "questions" (whatever that means) but it means very little when it comes to their performance in an exam. (My subject is 100% graded on a final exam).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭Treppen


    That's incorrect.

    From the guide to accredited grades:
    Quote:
    SEC Accredited Grades awarded to students in each subject based on schools’
    estimates of students’ likely performance in the 2021 examination and a
    national standardisation process.

    Thanks for correcting.

    Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 857 ✭✭✭French Toast


    Choice between poetry and prose in Irish is massive. Focus on one after Easter and your workload is down about 20%. I suppose it's representative of the in-school teaching time they've missed.

    Handiest LC they could've asked for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Polka_Dot wrote: »
    I can imagine a lot of students doing extra questions too so that they can be marked out of their best ones. Particularly in the likes of biology, there's now plenty of time to do relatively few questions, so no harm doing an extra experiment/long question.

    Avoid the heavy hitters too, if I want to bring a curve down hit Ecology etc, no point hitting Genetics. I'd be suggesting particular topics to them too. Weighted marking will be uneven, it always is. 4/5 in one question could be worth less than 2/5 in another. Do them all of you have time. Different sections are hit unevenly too. Kids with teachers who correct will be at an advantage here I think


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,438 ✭✭✭solerina


    Avoid the heavy hitters too, if I want to bring a curve down hit Ecology etc, no point hitting Genetics. I'd be suggesting particular topics to them too. Weighted marking will be uneven, it always is. 4/5 in one question could be worth less than 2/5 in another. Do them all of you have time. Different sections are hit unevenly too. Kids with teachers who correct will be at an advantage here I think

    I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,429 ✭✭✭✭km79


    SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

    And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
    Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭Random sample


    km79 wrote: »
    And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
    Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

    Perspex still to be in place.

    Glad to see the row back, a lot of people weren’t happy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭noplacehere


    SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

    Source? I’ve one very stressed friend


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,429 ✭✭✭✭km79




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Source? I’ve one very stressed friend

    On Radio 1 a while ago

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40250582.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭Random sample




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    There wasn’t one complaint about no masks in our place surprisingly. Think most were happy with the screen and two/three metres. Right decision though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    solerina wrote: »
    I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

    I would say the same across all the sciences. In my view it's possible to study about 25-30% of the physics course and get a H1, assuming that the material is known inside out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    solerina wrote: »
    I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

    Absolutely, particularly with the experiment and long questions. Only need to know a handful of experiments and it's guaranteed you will be able to answer a question. Same with the long questions - adding in more questions AND more internal choice means that they're going to be asking a wide variety of topics, so you could almost study any 7/8 topics you want and be in with a good chance of doing well.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Ecology, genetics, cell metabolism, 7 experiments, nutrition, cell division short questions, and pick a few of your favourite human anatomy systems to pick up the rest. Done

    It's minimal to say the least.

    I shudder to think what the papers will be like next year


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