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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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Leftwaffe

Wombatman wrote: »

Don't know where it is coming from. Instructions very clear.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/306f8-leaving-certificate-candidate-self-service-portal-2021-before-you-start-guide/

So it’s not the case? Surely our member of management has got word about this from somewhere?

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Students not being given an option on this by some schools.

It’s not up to schools to decide and make up their own rules

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

Not true. Remember you are predicting based on the 2021 exam and a national standardisation process.
If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years.

Whether it can justly categorizes individual students based on their ability is another question altogether.

True that, it should be interesting to see how they bump down all the teachers marks though.

There's a bit of an incongruity there too:

"If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years. "

...Because written exams this year can't be the same as results in other years (because of simplification and extra time to do questions) they'll have to shoot up. And you simply can't push >10% of students getting H1s in subjects down to H2s if there's no wrong answers on their exam!!

So are accredited grades truly standardised to what students would get if they had sat this year OR other years? Documentation says that it's how they would perform this year.

True/False : The 2 bell curves this year should be the same as each other?

Wombatman

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Bit of panic here this morning over this. I haven't seen anything official but a member of management has this info.

Don't know where it is coming from. Instructions very clear.

However, as some important examination events will be completed by then (the Orals in Irish and the Modern Foreign Language subjects and many of the completion dates for coursework) it is really important that you understand the consequences of your decision making. For example, if you opt for an Accredited Grade in a language subject now but you do not opt for the examination, you will not be taking the Oral test when they take place between 26 March and 15 April. If you then change your mind and decide you want to sit the examination you will have lost the opportunity to take the Oral test. While you might go on to take the written examination in the subject, you will not be able to achieve full marks as you will forfeit the marks for the Oral test.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/306f8-leaving-certificate-candidate-self-service-portal-2021-before-you-start-guide/

km79

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Bit of panic here this morning over this. I haven't seen anything official but a member of management has this info.

If this doesn’t end up being a total shambles then once again like everything else it will be purely down to school staff going over and above .

km79

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Im hearing this morning that even if students opted for a predicated grade in the portal (thus no oral required) they can now sit the oral next week incase they change their mind about sitting the exam when the portal reopens at a later date.

Can anyone confirm this?

This would change scheduling & lists, etc. (A list which I haven't got yet from the Dept. mind you!)

Oh
My
God

Leftwaffe

Im hearing this morning that even if students opted for a predicated grade in the portal (thus no oral required) they can now sit the oral next week incase they change their mind about sitting the exam when the portal reopens at a later date.

Can anyone confirm this?

This would change scheduling & lists, etc. (A list which I haven't got yet from the Dept. mind you!)

History Queen

Dickie10 wrote: »

My problem is I need to stick to the school script and just repeat the mantra. Do i just let them hand me anything at all in on April 23rd or nothing , if not doing the exam.

You need to have that discussion with your principal. The guidelines are clear.

Edit: that being said, if they don't hand it in by the deadline, just move on.

Dickie10

My problem is I need to stick to the school script and just repeat the mantra. Do i just let them hand me anything at all in on April 23rd or nothing , if not doing the exam.

jimmytwotimes 2013

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can advise them to complete the coursework for you, but you can't force them to do it.

Students not being given an option on this by some schools.

rainbowtrout

Dickie10 wrote: »

I have been told the dept guidelines is that all project work is submitted by due date either way.

A principal's opinion on what they'd like to do does not supersede the guidelines. If a student has opted out of doing the exam and is taking the predicted grade only they do not have to submit project work.

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2021-press-releases/PR21-02-17.html

The Minister’s strongly held view is that students must be afforded the choice as to whether to sit the examinations, including the oral and coursework components, as it would be entirely unfair to students to require them to participate in these elements, given the disruption in learning which has occurred. The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process.

You can advise them to complete the coursework for you, but you can't force them to do it.

Wombatman

Strangely enough I would argue that this year, accredited grades will probably be a more accurate measure, than the exam itself.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks for correcting.

Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.

Not true. Remember you are predicting based on the 2021 exam and a national standardisation process.
If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years.

Whether it can justly categorizes individual students based on their ability is another question altogether.

Wombatman

The easier exams means marks are going to coalesce towards the higher end. It's going to be very difficult to identify a students true ability. Applying the curve could see a big shift where there might only be a couple of marks between students. You could see a cases where higher, middle and lower H1s become H1s, H2s and H3s.

Detailed precise marking schemes will be very important to help separate the wheat from the chaff.

Grind schools must be $hitting themselves because their higher performing students will have no real way of differentiating themselves because of the limited test base. They won't be able to rely on historic school performance either.

No way will exam performance impact on the standardisation of accredited grades or vice versa.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

I'm out of maths teaching for a while and a relative was asking what's the best thing for daughter to study for paper O level. She said she only has to do 4 section A and Two section B.

They're very week and failed a good few recent tests!
I think it could be damage reduction at this stage. I'll be giving her a hand next week on Paper 2 over zoom so gotta make it easy... Maybe just basic intro to each topic like coordinate geometry of circle .I'll Probably avoid stuff like proofs and probability/confidence intervals as she's week on English (dyslexic).

Any suggestions?

For paper 2 the big hitters are Trig and Stats, you'd assume a long Qs on both and maybe one or two short for your trouble. Then circle and line fill the rest in.

Stats is repetitive, make sure she knows how to use the calculator for mean and SD, basics of null hypothesis, central tendencies and graphing.

Circle is more predictable than the line (don't forget area of triangle here with transformation) but you could train to pick the right formula by looking for particular words and then subbing in, you'll comfortably pass most questions with that.

Paper one, algebra and calculas, at OL you can nearly predict the questions so again you can make quick progress and it's essentially guaranteed as a long and short and probably more

Make sure she can graph, you'd be surprised

Dickie10

km79 wrote: »

If they are not sitting exam they do not have to complete coursework

I have been told the dept guidelines is that all project work is submitted by due date either way.

Treppen

I'm out of maths teaching for a while and a relative was asking what's the best thing for daughter to study for paper O level. She said she only has to do 4 section A and Two section B.

They're very week and failed a good few recent tests!
I think it could be damage reduction at this stage. I'll be giving her a hand next week on Paper 2 over zoom so gotta make it easy... Maybe just basic intro to each topic like coordinate geometry of circle .I'll Probably avoid stuff like proofs and probability/confidence intervals as she's week on English (dyslexic).

Any suggestions?

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks for correcting.

Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.

km79

Dickie10 wrote: »

Hi everyine, history teacher here, slightly confused. The LC RSR, students that are not intending to sit the exam, are still required to do the RSR , I am right in this?

If they are not sitting exam they do not have to complete coursework

Dickie10

Hi everyine, history teacher here, slightly confused. The LC RSR, students that are not intending to sit the exam, are still required to do the RSR , I am right in this?

am_zarathustra

Ecology, genetics, cell metabolism, 7 experiments, nutrition, cell division short questions, and pick a few of your favourite human anatomy systems to pick up the rest. Done

It's minimal to say the least.

I shudder to think what the papers will be like next year

Polka_Dot

solerina wrote: »

I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

Absolutely, particularly with the experiment and long questions. Only need to know a handful of experiments and it's guaranteed you will be able to answer a question. Same with the long questions - adding in more questions AND more internal choice means that they're going to be asking a wide variety of topics, so you could almost study any 7/8 topics you want and be in with a good chance of doing well.

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

I would say the same across all the sciences. In my view it's possible to study about 25-30% of the physics course and get a H1, assuming that the material is known inside out.

Leftwaffe

There wasn’t one complaint about no masks in our place surprisingly. Think most were happy with the screen and two/three metres. Right decision though.

Random sample

From the horses mouth https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2021-press-releases/PR21-03-24.html

jimmytwotimes 2013

noplacehere wrote: »

Source? I’ve one very stressed friend

On Radio 1 a while ago

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40250582.html

km79

https://www.asti.ie/document-library/sec-revised-guidance-on-leaving-cert-oral-examinations/sec-circ1321-supplement-24032021.pdf

noplacehere

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

Source? I’ve one very stressed friend

Random sample

km79 wrote: »

And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

Perspex still to be in place.

Glad to see the row back, a lot of people weren’t happy.

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me