Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

Donald Trump · 23-03-2021 02:48PM

Irish Aris wrote: »

Not sure if it is the point of the OP, but I think there is a general point: how do we know that people that catch covid in the community actually follow the restrictions they should follow (isolate etc) and they don't go around their daily business without any consideration. Honestly I reckon that people like this are in the minority and there is no way to prove it, but I don't believe for a second that there is 100% restriction compliance from positive cases caught domestically.

No there isn't 100% compliance for most things in life. I would say that the vast vast majority of people do comply though. That some people might not comply doesn't mean that enforcement elsewhere should be ignored. If you know someone who is breaking the rules then you can of course report them.

Blut2 · 23-03-2021 02:50PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

That is not quite true. Sure even back at the very start there was some young fella from Ballymun or thereabouts who was arrested and brought to court for flouting restrictions in place at the very start. He had either tested positive or been a close contact of someone who had. I think that that was even before there were any general lockdowns

There were a number of people charged for breaking general lockdown restrictions (that apply to everyone) while corona positive. Not for not self-isolating after testing positive. They're very different.

Feel free to try to find any legislation for mandatory isolation for anyone whos tested positive in Ireland and come back to the thread with it.

23-03-2021 02:53PM

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/1/section/11/enacted/en/html

Detention and isolation of persons in certain circumstances.

Donald Trump · 23-03-2021 02:55PM

Blut2 wrote: »

There were a number of people charged for breaking general lockdown restrictions (that apply to everyone) while corona positive. Not for not self-isolating after testing positive. They're very different.

Feel free to try to find any legislation for mandatory isolation for anyone whos tested positive in Ireland and come back to the thread with it.

Sure. Do you need the actual link?

There is a general statutory instrument that prevents any person in the country from leaving their place of residence without a reasonable excuse. I think it is an update to the old 1947 Health Act which allows for public health measures to be enacted.

Anyone who leaves their place of residence, after testing positive, could be charged under that provision.

That is why these things are left general rather than specific.

Edit: bubblypop gave an exact link to an explicit wording related to isolation in the post above.

dmcsweeney · 23-03-2021 02:58PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yeah but the pro-opening-travel people don't want enforced hotel quarantine because they think that people should be trusted to quarantine at home. No? Am I misunderstanding that from some posters on here?

Common sense would appear to indicate that there may be a bias in the level taking reasonable precautions seriously for a group that travels unnecessarily compared to the general public?

https://extra.ie/2021/03/20/news/irish-news/garda-chase-driver-fine-non-essential-travel-bray-ballymun

Well people like that (in your link above) should get a special vaccine that sterilises them :pac:.

I think the biggest issue amongst people here (me included) is the fact that we're prisoners in our own country. I can imagine that a lot of people have an issue with the hotel quarantine in that it opens the doors for all sorts of other scenarios. Say for example, figures drop, people go on holidays, then NPHET suddenly, and over night, decide to add European countries to the hotel list. If the mechanism is there, it could happen. Plus its another tool for NPHET et al to try and scare us off travelling. Meanwhile in all this, you'll most likely end up with a situation like last year where migrant workers are being flown in (as essential fruit pickers etc), being piled into dorms and spreading covid like wild fire.

Red Silurian · 23-03-2021 03:02PM

Route1 wrote: »

I was wondering what the situation at airports is at the moment? Is there a Garda checkpoint at the airport itself.

I'm thinking of travelling to Mexico for 2 weeks and then travel to the US to circumvent the ban.

Also what are the "legitimate" excuses one needs to travel?

Thanks

Why not start with why you're travelling? Is it for the vaccine? If so then you are travelling for a medical procedure so getting out of Ireland should not be an issue and i don't think you'll need to spend time in Mexico either

Donald Trump · 23-03-2021 03:07PM

dmcsweeney wrote: »

Well people like that (in your link above) should get a special vaccine that sterilises them :pac:.

I think the biggest issue amongst people here (me included) is the fact that we're prisoners in our own country. I can imagine that a lot of people have an issue with the hotel quarantine in that it opens the doors for all sorts of other scenarios. Say for example, figures drop, people go on holidays, then NPHET suddenly, and over night, decide to add European countries to the hotel list. If the mechanism is there, it could happen. Plus its another tool for NPHET et al to try and scare us off travelling. Meanwhile in all this, you'll most likely end up with a situation like last year where migrant workers are being flown in (as essential fruit pickers etc), being piled into dorms and spreading covid like wild fire.

Well the migrant workers are at least essential. I don't see how anyone could voice out about restrictions for non-essential travel, and at the same time complain about migrant workers who are needed to do certain roles.

I mean you can argue against travel for both groups. I can understand that argument as it is consistent. But if I had to choose, I'd be loosening up restrictions for the migrant workers before I'd loosen them up for leisure travel. (As of now, I'd be for mandatory quarantine of migrant workers btw. Let the employers foot the bill)

dmcsweeney · 23-03-2021 03:17PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well the migrant workers are at least essential. I don't see how anyone could voice out about restrictions for non-essential travel, and at the same time complain about migrant workers who are needed to do certain roles.

I mean you can argue against travel for both groups. I can understand that argument as it is consistent. But if I had to choose, I'd be loosening up restrictions for the migrant workers before I'd loosen them up for leisure travel.

There are certain workers (typically specialist contractors etc) that do require access to the country. I am aware of such people that have been travelling in and out of the country regularly over the past few months. They take tests, the use hire cars, they stay in hotels.
On the other hand, a lot of the seasonal workers come from countries on the hotel list, countries with possible variants or high levels of infection. They are likely to travel in groups, and are likely to be in shared accommodation. There is nothing stopping people applying for a job (for example as a fruit picker) and then rolling in here, showing the email from their employer, and rolling out. They may have no intention of working.

Meanwhile Paddy has had enough of NPHET, gets tested, goes to Spain, complies with all the rules (and believe me, other countries do it right, and actually enforce precautions). Then one day Tony sees Cervical Check starting to raise it's ugly head in the media, and invents the Spanish variant. Poor Paddy ends up in city west for 2 weeks, at his own cost, and arrives home to a €500 fine from the airport.

acequion · 23-03-2021 03:20PM

dmcsweeney wrote: »

Well people like that (in your link above) should get a special vaccine that sterilises them :pac:.

I think the biggest issue amongst people here (me included) is the fact that we're prisoners in our own country. I can imagine that a lot of people have an issue with the hotel quarantine in that it opens the doors for all sorts of other scenarios. Say for example, figures drop, people go on holidays, then NPHET suddenly, and over night, decide to add European countries to the hotel list. If the mechanism is there, it could happen. Plus its another tool for NPHET et al to try and scare us off travelling. Meanwhile in all this, you'll most likely end up with a situation like last year where migrant workers are being flown in (as essential fruit pickers etc), being piled into dorms and spreading covid like wild fire.

+1000. I could have written that post myself I agree with every word. It's a retrograde step. It will keep the anti travel mob happy, for a while anyway, but is mainly another very large nail in the coffin of connectivity.

That idiot MM couldn't wait to tell us that there will definitely be more countries added, so you really would have to be very fearful.

Ray Donovan · 23-03-2021 03:26PM

acequion wrote: »

+1000. I could have written that post myself I agree with every word. It's a retrograde step. It will keep the anti travel mob happy, for a while anyway, but is mainly another very large nail in the coffin of connectivity.

That idiot MM couldn't wait to tell us that there will definitely be more countries added, so you really would have to be very fearful.

He'd want to be very careful if he wants to add EU countries. That could bring him down a rabbit hole that he wouldn't even understand.

dmcsweeney · 23-03-2021 03:27PM

acequion wrote: »

That idiot MM couldn't wait to tell us that there will definitely be more countries added, so you really would have to be very fearful.

Unfortunately we're in the situation where the tail is wagging the dog here. The media, driven by the fact that fear sells, publishing scare stories, feeding the usual Irish 'outraged' people to wave pitch forks, accompanied by national health 'advisers' who are craving all the fame and media attention. They're giving the people (who scream the loudest) what they want, politics 101 unfortunately.

TobyHolmes · 23-03-2021 03:28PM

what this about no enforced restrictions people are jabbering on about. There are fines if we dont comply. that is enforcement.

acequion · 23-03-2021 03:41PM

Ray Donovan wrote: »

He'd want to be very careful if he wants to add EU countries. That could bring him down a rabbit hole that he wouldn't even understand.

I don't pray but I really am starting to pray that he will stop short of adding EU countries. But Austria is there, so like I say, you'd have to be very fearful.

As a poster already said, when you consider that someone can test positive and then basically do as they please and are doing so in every community in the country it really shows this up for exactly what it is, as a mob pleasing PR stunt.

Blut2 · 23-03-2021 03:45PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sure. Do you need the actual link?

There is a general statutory instrument that prevents any person in the country from leaving their place of residence without a reasonable excuse. I think it is an update to the old 1947 Health Act which allows for public health measures to be enacted.

Anyone who leaves their place of residence, after testing positive, could be charged under that provision.

That is why these things are left general rather than specific.

Edit: bubblypop gave an exact link to an explicit wording related to isolation in the post above.

That act allows (to summarize) that an "officer may in writing order the detention and isolation of such person[a public health risk] in a hospital or other place". It nowhere states that its mandatory for anyone who tests positive to self isolate. And, to date, hasn't been used. It doesn't support your point at all.

Its not legislation that orders mandatory quarantine for anyone who tests positive in Ireland, as is being applied to people who arrive in Dublin airport with a negative test.

The issue of logic, fairness, and constitutionality is that Irish citizens arriving in Dublin airport with a negative covid test and certificate of vaccination will be subjected to mandatory hotel quarantine for public health. While Irish citizens in the rest of the country who test positive are advised to remain at home, but not forced to. Despite logically (and statistically) being a much higher risk to public health.

23-03-2021 03:53PM

Blut2 wrote: »

That act allows (to summarize) that an "officer may in writing order the detention and isolation of such person[a public health risk] in a hospital or other place". It nowhere states that its mandatory for anyone who tests positive to self isolate. And, to date, hasn't been used. It doesn't support your point at all.

Its not legislation that orders mandatory quarantine for anyone who tests positive in Ireland, as is being applied to people who arrive in Dublin airport with a negative test.

The issue of logic, fairness, and constitutionality is that Irish citizens arriving in Dublin airport with a negative covid test and certificate of vaccination will be subjected to mandatory hotel quarantine for public health. While Irish citizens in the rest of the country who test positive are advised to remain at home, but not forced to. Despite logically (and statistically) being a much higher risk to public health.

I gave you a link in response to your last request

Wallander · 23-03-2021 04:12PM

A couple of months after being introduced in Canada, mandatory hotel quarantine doesn't seem as fluffy and progressive any more there after a couple of reported sexual assaults in hotels:

https://theline.substack.com/p/michelle-rempel-garner-quarantine?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=copy

Donald Trump · 23-03-2021 04:25PM

Blut2 wrote: »

That act allows (to summarize) that an "officer may in writing order the detention and isolation of such person[a public health risk] in a hospital or other place". It nowhere states that its mandatory for anyone who tests positive to self isolate. And, to date, hasn't been used. It doesn't support your point at all.

Even ignoring that bubblypop gave you a direct link which had explicit language, you are essentially arguing that someone who is infected with covid would be able to claim that their leaving of their place of residence would be "reasonable". That is a nonsense.

Judge: "I see you ignored instructions to quarantine and you are charged with breaking the law by leaving your place of residence repeatedly to go down to your local Tesco. What do you have to say"
Defendant: "Ah yeah, sure I was just bored judge. I had food in the house and I get the home deliveries anyway. I was just fed up"
Judge: "Ah grand. Seems like a reasonable excuse to me. Case dismissed"

What is the point of all this? Trying to claim there are no restrictions on people who have positive tests.

Donald Trump · 23-03-2021 04:31PM

Wallander wrote: »

A couple of months after being introduced in Canada, mandatory hotel quarantine doesn't seem as fluffy and progressive any more there after a couple of reported sexual assaults in hotels:

https://theline.substack.com/p/michelle-rempel-garner-quarantine?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=copy

Who ever said it was fluffy or progressive? The idea of locking up people who are trying to travel would seem to be more of a conservative thing? No? Or is it similar to the way that the loser libs in Ireland want centralised asylum facilites whereas the more conservative reasonable people want them to be housed in private accommodation and left free to roam?

The reason that they are bringing in the quarantine is because there is a virus going around. You might have heard about it. It's not to further some imagined "liberal" agenda. All you are doing is sticking an irrelevant "liberal" tag onto your outrage.

Wallander · 23-03-2021 04:36PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Who ever said it was fluffy or progressive? The idea of locking up people who are trying to travel would seem to be more of a conservative thing? No? Or is it similar to the way that the loser libs in Ireland want centralised asylum facilites whereas the more conservative reasonable people want them to be housed in private accommodation and left free to roam?

The reason that they are bringing in the quarantine is because there is a virus going around. You might have heard about it. It's not to further some imagined "liberal" agenda. All you are doing is sticking an irrelevant "liberal" tag onto your outrage.

Well in Ireland and the UK it seems that left-leaning opposition parties have been the ones banging the drum for making hotel quarantining as strict as possible. Given the difficulties it poses for vulnerable people, women, foreign residents etc. not to mention the great expense it introduces to travel, I personally see this as strange.

TobyHolmes · 23-03-2021 04:37PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Who ever said it was fluffy or progressive? The idea of locking up people who are trying to travel would seem to be more of a conservative thing? No? Or is it similar to the way that the loser libs in Ireland want centralised asylum facilites whereas the more conservative reasonable people want them to be housed in private accommodation and left free to roam.

The reason that they are bringing in the quarantine is because there is a virus going around. You might have heard about it. It's not to further some imagined "liberal" agenda. All you are doing is sticking an irrelevant "liberal" tag onto your outrage.

its interesting though isnt it how the liberal and conservative labels are thrown around so much that now these labels are meaningless.
liberal traditionally meant support of free markets, support of individual rights and conservatism meant emphasis on tradition and opposing innovation etc. but these labels have been so diluted now that anyone who perceives themselves as conservative will call anyone who disagrees with them liberal (and vice versa) and these dont take into consideration any nuanced views in between. how about instead of throwing around liberal and conservative terminology people just disagree with arguments on their own merits without the need to label that argument on one side or the other.

Red Silurian · 23-03-2021 05:23PM

Wallander wrote: »

Well in Ireland and the UK it seems that left-leaning opposition parties have been the ones banging the drum for making hotel quarantining as strict as possible. Given the difficulties it poses for vulnerable people, women, foreign residents etc. not to mention the great expense it introduces to travel, I personally see this as strange.

Because the main people it will affect are holiday-goers, which is a choice and is traditionally seen as a thing that the rich enjoy! Also anywhere you look that hotel quarantine has worked there are liberal governments so a "look I'm like them" rhetoric then develops

scouserstation · 23-03-2021 05:44PM

Ray Donovan wrote: »

He'd want to be very careful if he wants to add EU countries. That could bring him down a rabbit hole that he wouldn't even understand.

Adding EU countries onto that list would be akin to committing political suicide, we are already being viewed as outliers in how we are dealing with the travel situation and this could send us further down the hole we are digging for ourselves,
Also see there's calls to add the UK to the list, have our people and politicians lost the plot? This would do serious damage economically and politically, the irony also of Sinn Féin calling for this, how would they like it if we introduce quarantining for people travelling to the North? No more trips up to see uncle Gerry or go to any funerals or any other "business" trips to Belfast

acequion · 23-03-2021 06:18PM

scouserstation wrote: »

Adding EU countries onto that list would be akin to committing political suicide, we are already being viewed as outliers in how we are dealing with the travel situation and this could send us further down the hole we are digging for ourselves,

You're right but we've seen things brought in this past year that we would never have conceived of.

And unfortunately we were never more politically volatile. A weak and ineffective leader whose chief ambition was to be Taoiseach and who will pander to the masses. A coalition made in hell of three parties who clearly don't gel. And the shinners as the main opposition! Former terrorists at worst, very nationalist at best and love to be populist! Were we ever worse served in a crisis?

Beasty · 23-03-2021 06:30PM

Threads merged

Hellrazer · 23-03-2021 06:34PM

Wallander wrote: »

A couple of months after being introduced in Canada, mandatory hotel quarantine doesn't seem as fluffy and progressive any more there after a couple of reported sexual assaults in hotels:

https://theline.substack.com/p/michelle-rempel-garner-quarantine?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=copy

I was just talking to someone about this.

Who IS providing the security for these hotels? Probably cheap rent-a-cOps whose back grounds are probably quite dubious?? And are more used to walking up and down in shopping centres stopping teenagers from acting the maggot.

Whats to stop these so called "security" persons from abusing the power they have in detaining someone?

I really cant see this ending well.

Was there even a tender put out for these hotels? I cant find the tender process anywhere.

Or is Tifco related to someone in the government that got the nod and wink from someone in government?

Too many questions.

Corholio · 23-03-2021 06:43PM

TobyHolmes wrote: »

what this about no enforced restrictions people are jabbering on about. There are fines if we dont comply. that is enforcement.

Travellers coming in, positive or not, HAVE to quarantine from certain countries, someone testing positive here and possibly walking around supermarkets etc do not, and only a random one in a thousand chance where someone would admit it with a Guard etc would get them fined. That was the comparison made.

IQO · 23-03-2021 06:54PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I was just talking to someone about this.

Who IS providing the security for these hotels? Probably cheap rent-a-cOps whose back grounds are probably quite dubious?? And are more used to walking up and down in shopping centres stopping teenagers from acting the maggot.

Whats to stop these so called "security" persons from abusing the power they have in detaining someone?

I really cant see this ending well.

Was there even a tender put out for these hotels? I cant find the tender process anywhere.

Or is Tifco related to someone in the government that got the nod and wink from someone in government?

Too many questions.

Good questions,

Will they also lock the doors and keep the keys - only opening up for their food rations three times per day? What in case a fire breaks out?

---

Unrelated, I also realised the following: Countries/Regions not issuing exit immigration stamps

If you go 14+ days to any of these countries (or a combination of both, f.e. the aforementioned US visit by going to Mexico first), it's impossible to check on-entry to Ireland how long you've been away and where.

IQO · 23-03-2021 07:27PM

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1374441858730917897

Very interesting this, must be either companies booking this for their employees or test bookings by L. Varadkar and M. Martin.

SimonTemplar · 23-03-2021 07:29PM

IQO wrote: »

Good questions,

Will they also lock the doors and keep the keys - only opening up for their food rations three times per day? What in case a fire breaks out?

---

Unrelated, I also realised the following: Countries/Regions not issuing exit immigration stamps

If you go 14+ days to any of these countries (or a combination of both, f.e. the aforementioned US visit by going to Mexico first), it's impossible to check on-entry to Ireland how long you've been away and where.

Not sure about hotels, but the security systems I've worked with will automatically unlock all doors in the event of a fire alarm.

TobyHolmes · 23-03-2021 07:32PM

Corholio wrote: »

Travellers coming in, positive or not, HAVE to quarantine from certain countries, someone testing positive here and possibly walking around supermarkets etc do not, and only a random one in a thousand chance where someone would admit it with a Guard etc would get them fined. That was the comparison made.

really what about the papers citing all of these fines being issued.
they making it up?

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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