Transport Aircraft

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 03:25PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Have we, as a nation, won Euromillions? It's a huge cost for something that is still going through teething problems.

You never know, maybe if the German's are still trying to get rid of some of their order they might want to flog them off cheap?:p

Leonidas BL · 22-11-2020 08:12PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Have we, as a nation, won Euromillions? It's a huge cost for something that is still going through teething problems.

Luxembourg managed to buy one, and they barely have enough space to land it

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 09:06PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

You get a lot of aircraft for €175m. The two casa C295 are costing us €221.6m!

That's for the full life costs though isn't it?

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 09:16PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

You get a lot of aircraft for €175m. The two casa C295 are costing us €221.6m!

I'm guessing it's not really wanted by the DoD , otherwise there'd be a third casa on the way ,

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 09:17PM

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm guessing it's not really wanted by the DoD , otherwise there'd be a third casa on the way ,

It's the DOD, they'd prefer if the DF didn't get anything.

Psychlops · 22-11-2020 09:54PM

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/embraer-hungary-sign-contract-for-two-kc-390-airlifters/141167.article

No no no, the IAC has long enough been the "launch customer" or "guinea pig", we need something tried, proven & tested, like NATO's C17 in Hungary that Nations are using.

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 11:35PM

Psychlops wrote: »

No no no, the IAC has long enough been the "launch customer" or "guinea pig", we need something tried, proven & tested, like NATO's C17 in Hungary that Nations are using.

So very true, what we should be doing is picking one friendly nation (politically perhaps stick within Europe) and leverage off of them, tbh I'd look at the French.

The K/C390 may very well be the all singing all dancing product that is claimed, but us being one of the lead customers is insane.

NewSigGuy · 23-11-2020 02:09PM

The AC has made the mistake in the past of not only buying the Mark One of something but also in a bespoke specification that no other customer replicated.
So I usually agree on not buying the Mark One of anything but in this case the argument is somewhat different

The KC-390 is built on many mature technologies, particularly around the engines and avionics.
The manufacturer is not a small bespoke aircraft company, they are an Airliner and Bizjet company with a proven track record in delivering products that meet the spec and have the support network already in place.
They will IMHO amass a large and varied customer base for this product.

The A400M also has many of these positive attributes but has had a particularly troubled certification and entry to service phase, but now appears to be maturing nicely.

Psychlops · 24-11-2020 09:22PM

But....There is always a but, for any of this to even happen there would need to be significant works done to Casement because as it stands it is not fit for any of the above.

roadmaster · 24-11-2020 10:24PM

Psychlops wrote: »

But....There is always a but, for any of this to even happen there would need to be significant works done to Casement because as it stands it is not fit for any of the above.

Thats easily solved with Air Station Shannon or if the healy raes had there way Air Station Kerry!

sparky42 · 24-11-2020 11:24PM

roadmaster wrote: »

Thats easily solved with Air Station Shannon or if the healy raes had there way Air Station Kerry!

Put them in Kerry and that shower will want them in the National Park cutting Rhodo's all day long.

25-11-2020 02:58AM

Its cool, Healy-Rae plant hire will take a chunk out of the hill for you.

roadmaster · 25-11-2020 12:09PM

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Its cool, Healy-Rae plant hire will take a chunk out of the hill for you.

An upgrade the runway

roadmaster · 22-03-2021 10:12PM

If the British where saleing the Hercs and Pumas cheep that they are retiring would it be worth the government putting a bid in or would they be ready for the scrap yard?

Stovepipe · 22-03-2021 11:14PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

You get a lot of aircraft for €175m. The two casa C295 are costing us €221.6m!

considering that a Casa costs about 30 million a pop, thats a hell of a contract. I'd imagine the salesman who wangled that one is picking out a new Veyron as we speak. That's 160 mills left for spares and overhauls and you can be sure that there's a healthy chunk of profit in there.

Stovepipe · 22-03-2021 11:17PM

lease a few 390s. Embraer would bite your hand off for the business. Ireland is the world leader in aircraft leasing so we have people who know how to do it properly. Lease in 3 or 4 390s and you'd have a fast, efficient modern airlifter with excellent spares support.

jonnybigwallet · 23-03-2021 12:36AM

I agree with that 100 per cent. No point in buying UK cast offs.
Get some decent kit that's fit for purpose and reliable. Embraer make damned good planes. Could probably manage with two of them just fine and they are keenly priced.

jonnybigwallet · 23-03-2021 12:02PM

Hungary and Portugal have been given delivery dates 2022 23 for their Embraer purchases. The AC could wait that long. Similar timescale to recent deliveries from Pilatus. I see the RAF are disposing of their early model Typhoons...could come in handy if the price is right? Pretty new kit inlike the Hercs so might be worth getting.

Stovepipe · 23-03-2021 12:54PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Source?
I assume you mean a C295 in standard configuration costs €30m. I know 20 years ago Poland paid $212m for 8, in standard configuration. (Adjusting for inflation, The equivalent of $314 today=$40m each.
We aren't getting standard config, we are getting MPA config, with search radar and flir, and a host of other MPA specific fitouts, plus parts and maintenance support. A similar deal for the CN235 has seen them give us almost 30 years of trouble free heavy use.

Certainly not trouble free. They were new and essentially untested in real world maritime operations. Casa were not good at spares support and were a bit rubbish and took offence when we complained. Because they were unique, there was often only one or two of critical things like radar scanners and the relevant computer so they cost a fortune. They were basically a regional airliner with bits added and the real miracle is that they lasted as long as they have done. These aircraft have been pounded around the Atlantic and its no wonder they got wing boxes replaced.

roadmaster · 23-03-2021 01:32PM

Stovepipe wrote: »

Certainly not trouble free. They were new and essentially untested in real world maritime operations. Casa were not good at spares support and were a bit rubbish and took offence when we complained. Because they were unique, there was often only one or two of critical things like radar scanners and the relevant computer so they cost a fortune. They were basically a regional airliner with bits added and the real miracle is that they lasted as long as they have done. These aircraft have been pounded around the Atlantic and its no wonder they got wing boxes replaced.

What are the cases hours like compared to other nations. Have we got got value out of them over the last 27 years for a maritime aircraft?

Stovepipe · 23-03-2021 03:23PM

For sure. Remember that once the King Airs went, we had no aerial coverage of our EEZ, which is huge. The Casas gave the ability to reach out, right out to the ends of the zones and see what was out there. In pure terms of hours flown, the AC has probably got the highest houred Casas going. This follows the pattern set by the Hs 125 (highest hours per year of type), Gulfstreams (same again), King Airs (routinely exceeded annual hours of worldwide King Air fleet)and the Casas easily exceeded the global fleet average. A Casa would routinely do a 6 hr patrol and it might do that three times a week (or more,depending on what and who was available),so each one could be doing 700 hrs a year, which is way ahead of the average Casa,not including training, ferry flights to overhaul, flights such as para drops, aeromedical and so on. So,in terms of pure utility,definitely worth the money.

Larbre34 · 23-03-2021 03:42PM

There are political reasons both Portugal and Hungary are taking on Embraers.

I can't see Ireland acquiring anything outside of the EU defence stable for years to come.

I still think the best option for our needs is an A320/1 with modular interior fit-out, wet leased in these bargain times, is most suitable for our needs for the foreseeable future.

Although an A400M would be a great asset.

Stovepipe · 23-03-2021 05:26PM

if it was a govt flight, then it wouldnt have been grounded. In a lot of cases, business jets continued to fly as normal. Somebody making a case to avoid wet leasing?

Larbre34 · 23-03-2021 05:54PM

Yeah, we've had to send PC12s and the Learjet off on pond hops to central Africa and still charter planes to rotate UN battalions, many of them badly delayed. Thats before we mention the Aer Lingus flights to the far east to collect PPE cargo and returning with the cartons strapped to passengers seats.

A webinar of self appointment experts can say whatever they like, I will not have my opinion changed on the desirability of a multirole modular state aircraft for military, government and civil aid use.

jonnybigwallet · 23-03-2021 06:01PM

Emm. I used to be supportive about buying or leasing a redundant civil airliner as a troop transport with the front of the cabin fitted out as a government / state flight for the cabinet / president etc....but I've changed me mind because these planes can't carry vehicles such as APC'S ,artillery,etc. Nor are they really suitable for parachuting or disaster relief etc. The Embraer ticks all the boxes above. Bring it on! It could also take pressure off the new CASA'S when they arrive, so that they don't get flogged to death like the present ones.

Larbre34 · 23-03-2021 07:54PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Yeah, experts in the trade, what would they know compared to some anon on boardsie. You don't work for the DoD by any chance?

Obviously not. They'd be the last people to advocate for a plane. In fact they kiboshed the last time the AC went looking for one

Psychlops · 23-03-2021 09:38PM

Air Corps goes from weakness to weakness..

https://flyinginireland.com/2021/03/cae-to-train-irish-air-corps-pilots-in-the-usa/

sparky42 · 23-03-2021 10:25PM

Psychlops wrote: »

Air Corps goes from weakness to weakness..

https://flyinginireland.com/2021/03/cae-to-train-irish-air-corps-pilots-in-the-usa/

If it means getting pilot numbers back up then it has to be done. At the rate the NS is hemorrhaging for new personnel I wouldn't be hugely surprised if they end up having to use the RN like they used to.

roadmaster · 23-03-2021 10:29PM

sparky42 wrote: »

If it means getting pilot numbers back up then it has to be done. At the rate the NS is hemorrhaging for new personnel I wouldn't be hugely surprised if they end up having to use the RN like they used to.

Or maybe Australia!

Psychlops · 23-03-2021 10:36PM

sparky42 wrote: »

If it means getting pilot numbers back up then it has to be done. At the rate the NS is hemorrhaging for new personnel I wouldn't be hugely surprised if they end up having to use the RN like they used to.

But its not, the article says they dont have enough to train in house in Bal on the PC9, this is including engineers, thats as close as your going to get to grounding airframes!

Transport Aircraft

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