What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Wolf359f · 21-03-2021 11:30PM

murphaph wrote: »

Hungary and Malta did their own thing while being full member states. Malta is even using the Sinovac stuff.

Brexit had nothing whatsoever to do with it. The UK has a long history of opting out of community initiatives so it would have almost been expected.

By the way, Ireland would currently be competing against two dozen of the world's wealthiest countries for doses right now if the EU had played no role in procurement. That would have led to even bigger problems.

I honestly believe we'll soon have more supply than we can administer. A few more weeks or so.

Completely agree.
You always hear the argument that PUP is costing X amount so we could offer Y per dose. That's fine, but then another country offers Y+1 and wants to order twice as much etc... gets into a bidding war (that's excluding the time frame for delivery, you know companies like AZ will shaft you with the deliveries)
You can see it with other countries. Canada ordered more doses per population than anyone and they are still struggling.

Bit cynical · 21-03-2021 11:39PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

But the scheme was optional. EU countries or EEA countries were NOT forced to participate. You can argue that because of the transition period, the UK was in the EU for all intents and purposes yet didn't have to or want to sign up. It has nothing to do with brexit.
Maybe you also believe the UK were able to approve vaccines faster because of brexit also?

Technically optional but if a country had opted out fully and had done a better deal with AZ or one of the other manufacturers, they would have come under criticism of unfairly diverting supply away from other EU countries. They UK has had this leveled at them and they are not even in the EU. So politically it would have been virtually impossible not to join the scheme.

Wolf359f · 21-03-2021 11:45PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Technically optional but if a country had opted out fully and had done a better deal with AZ or one of the other manufacturers, they would have come under criticism of unfairly diverting supply away from other EU countries. They UK has had this leveled at them and they are not even in the EU. So politically it would have been virtually impossible not to join the scheme.

Ah please, it was optional and any EU country was allowed to go it alone.
You think if this pandemic occured pre-brexit that the UK wouldn't opt out?
You're deluded, they would love getting the criticism from the EU, more ammo for how bad the big bad EU are etc...

Red Silurian · 21-03-2021 11:50PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'm sure they can approve Sinopharm also, just tick a few boxes and bingo.
Would you be happy with that also?
Personally, I'd rather wait for the EMA to approve any vaccine before I'd be taking it.

The Sinopharm later test trials wouldn't inspire confidence nor would reports from the UAE about a third dosage possibly being required to gain the stated efficacy.

In saying that, the HPRA have plenty of qualified scientists and doctors who should be well able to make a call long before the EMA can

Bit cynical · 22-03-2021 12:17AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Ah please, it was optional and any EU country was allowed to go it alone.
You think if this pandemic occured pre-brexit that the UK wouldn't opt out?
You're deluded, they would love getting the criticism from the EU, more ammo for how bad the big bad EU are etc...

However unlike most community initiatives, no country has opted out of collective vaccine procurement. The countries that are pushing ahead are doing so with vaccines not involved in the deal such as Sputnik. Many EU initiatives have more than just the UK opting out. This is obviously different.

Wolf359f · 22-03-2021 12:22AM

Bit cynical wrote: »

However unlike most community initiatives, no country has opted out of collective vaccine procurement. The countries that are pushing ahead are doing so with vaccines not involved in the deal such as Sputnik. Many EU initiatives have more than just the UK opting out. This is obviously different.

You're trying to spin brexit as the reason why the UK is ahead in vaccines.
I'm saying Brexit didn't help nor hamper that ie. It's not related.

murphaph · 22-03-2021 06:21AM

Red Silurian wrote: »

The Sinopharm later test trials wouldn't inspire confidence nor would reports from the UAE about a third dosage possibly being required to gain the stated efficacy.

In saying that, the HPRA have plenty of qualified scientists and doctors who should be well able to make a call long before the EMA can

Except the EMA approved AZ only a month after the UK (I believe AZ was more cooperative with the UK in this respect too) and the EMA approved Moderna a number of weeks ago already whereas the UK have not approved it at all yet.

dogbert27 · 22-03-2021 06:31AM

murphaph wrote: »

Except the EMA approved AZ only a month after the UK (I believe AZ was more cooperative with the UK in this respect too) and the EMA approved Moderna a number of weeks ago already whereas the UK have not approved it at all yet.

Are the UK only using AZ and Pfizer?

murphaph · 22-03-2021 06:40AM

dogbert27 wrote: »

Are the UK only using AZ and Pfizer?

At the moment yes, as far as I understand it.

AllForIt · 22-03-2021 07:17AM

murphaph wrote: »

Hungary and Malta did their own thing while being full member states. Malta is even using the Sinovac stuff.

Well that's comforting, that countries can do their own thing despite being member of the EU. Sweet.

Brexit had nothing whatsoever to do with it. The UK has a long history of opting out of community initiatives so it would have almost been expected.

Communities? That made me laugh out loud. The whole EU project eradicates communities for a more multicultural one where there is no community at all.

By the way, Ireland would currently be competing against two dozen of the world's wealthiest countries for doses right now if the EU had played no role in procurement. That would have led to even bigger problems.

Except, we have a relationship with the UK. Arlene Foster has even proposed in good spirit that the UK might share their vaccines with the Republic.

I honestly believe we'll soon have more supply than we can administer. A few more weeks or so.

You honestly believe my arse. Ireland is going to experience exactly the same delay in vaccine administration as every other EU country due to the incompetence of the EU.

And all this comes in the backdrop of lefty eurocrats talking about "Vaccine Nationalism" in the media, which is all about hiding the real issue which is the EU screw up of vaccine rollout in Europe.

Pete_Cavan · 22-03-2021 07:48AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Except, we have a relationship with the UK. Arlene Foster has even proposed in good spirit that the UK might share their vaccines with the Republic.

Arlene is a great woman for taking political potshots, has she thanked Ireland for assistance with PPE and ambulances when they didn't have enough of either? She has no influence for UK vaccines and was merely playing to her audience. What they are trying to do now with the NI Protocol tells you everything you need to know about what the UK government thinks of our relationship with them.

You honestly believe my arse. Ireland is going to experience exactly the same delay in vaccine administration as every other EU country due to the incompetence of the EU.

And all this comes in the backdrop of lefty eurocrats talking about "Vaccine Nationalism" in the media, which is all about hiding the real issue which is the EU screw up of vaccine rollout in Europe.

Administering vaccines has nothing to do with the EU, thats down to individual countries. We have been limited by supply up to now but that is about to change (rather unsurprisingly just as the UK is about to experience supply issues). Once the supply is there, there will be no excuses for countries not to get them administered quickly and efficiently.

Red Silurian · 22-03-2021 07:52AM

murphaph wrote: »

Except the EMA approved AZ only a month after the UK (I believe AZ was more cooperative with the UK in this respect too) and the EMA approved Moderna a number of weeks ago already whereas the UK have not approved it at all yet.

How many Modena vaccines has the EMA got on order? The USA approved Moderna and the UK approved AstraZenneca long before the EU did because they had significant orders from the respective countries

is_that_so · 22-03-2021 07:55AM

Red Silurian wrote: »

How many Modena vaccines has the EMA got on order? The USA approved Moderna and the UK approved AstraZenneca long before the EU did because they had significant orders from the respective countries

The EU place the orders, the EMA just approve medicines. Moderna has US contracts to fulfil, then they'll address others. This has been known for months.

dogbert27 · 22-03-2021 07:57AM

Red Silurian wrote: »

How many Modena vaccines has the EMA got on order? The USA approved Moderna and the UK approved AstraZenneca long before the EU did because they had significant orders from the respective countries

I cant see the original order but last month the agreed a second contract to supply an additional 150 mill doses this year and another 150 mill in 2022 bringing the EU portfolio of vaccines up to 2.6 billion doses.

murphaph · 22-03-2021 08:08AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Well that's comforting, that countries can do their own thing despite being member of the EU. Sweet.

Communities? That made me laugh out loud. The whole EU project eradicates communities for a more multicultural one where there is no community at all.

Except, we have a relationship with the UK. Arlene Foster has even proposed in good spirit that the UK might share their vaccines with the Republic.

You honestly believe my arse. Ireland is going to experience exactly the same delay in vaccine administration as every other EU country due to the incompetence of the EU.

And all this comes in the backdrop of lefty eurocrats talking about "Vaccine Nationalism" in the media, which is all about hiding the real issue which is the EU screw up of vaccine rollout in Europe.

"Community" as in, European Community.

The rest of your post suggests we should have put our fate in the hands of the neighbours next door. I might remind you that those neighbours have a historical tendency to not give a flying f**k about us and even as recently as this year have been threatening our place in the single market by breaching the protocol on Northern Ireland in the Withdrawal Agreement. This is the second time our neighbours have broken international law in respect of the protocol in 4 months. They can't be trusted as far as they can be thrown.

Arlene Foster isn't the PM and anything she proposes is to make herself feel better about the union. It's purely political for her DUP electorate so they can feel all superior to the poor feckers in the south. They get precious few opportunities these days so they have to make hay while the sun shines I suppose.

The UK has been hoarding vaccine in cahoots with AZ. They have deliberately failed to apply until now for authorisation to supply the EU from the Halix plant in the Netherlands, knowing that the EMA still has to check the application carefully before approving. They have completely failed to deliver a a single dose from either of their UK plants, despite them being listed in the EU contract. The EU based Pfizer plant supplied the UK with their first 10 million doses of anything. In hindsight the EU should not have trusted AZ/the UK and should have not signed any contract with AZ and should not have allowed any Biontech product to go to the UK but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So, you think we should have trusted the UK when even the EU hasn't been supplied from the AZ plants in the UK, despite having a very similar contract to the UK and that contract being dated a day earlier than the UK's and having provided AZ with €400m lst year to help develop manufacturing capacity and having provided the lion's share of the Jenner Institute's (where the AZ jab was developed) funding right up until the end of last year?

If the EU hasn't gotten a drop of vaccine out of an AZ UK plant, despite all the above, you think Ireland would have done better going directly to the source? You think a few outraged headlines in the Daily Express about "Paddies getting our vaccine" wouldn't have seen the supply shut off straight away? We would have been completely at the mercy of this country that has acted in nothing but bad faith towards us recently (there was a gap of a decade or two before that where we had good relations and then hundreds of years of bad relations again before that)

Good luck trusting them.

Tippbhoy1 · 22-03-2021 08:15AM

Red Silurian wrote: »

How many Modena vaccines has the EMA got on order? The USA approved Moderna and the UK approved AstraZenneca long before the EU did because they had significant orders from the respective countries

The EU have placed big orders with almost all the vaccine providers, and did so many months ago. Depending on the vaccine, some blocs ordered ahead of others, and approved ahead of others eg Moderna was ordered and approved by the Eu before the UK. The EU orders are bigger than the USA order book, the population is bigger.

However, most of the companies are American. In the case of AZ, the EU order was many multiples of the Uk order. The pharma companies are applying for approval with their home countries first, in the case of AZ for example the Uk had it approved before AZ had even applied to the Eu for approval. Same with J&J and the US. This enables them to get hands on some of the supply sooner. This is before there is even a discussion on vaccine nationalism.

is_that_so · 22-03-2021 08:21AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

The EU have placed big orders with almost all the vaccine providers, and did so many months ago. Depending on the vaccine, some blocs ordered ahead of others, and approved ahead of others eg Moderna was ordered and approved by the Eu before the UK. The EU orders are bigger than the USA order book, the population is bigger.

However, most of the companies are American. In the case of AZ, the EU order was many multiples of the Uk order. The pharma companies are applying for approval with their home countries first, in the case of AZ for example the Uk had it approved before AZ had even applied to the Eu for approval. Same with J&J and the US. This enables them to get hands on some of the supply sooner. This is before there is even a discussion on vaccine nationalism.

The EU has got caught on two vaccine options, the failure of the Sanofi candidate and the wide boy carry-on of AZ. There are other issues at work too, the need to get 27 counties on board and the automatic inclination to trust vaccine company projections.

Tippbhoy1 · 22-03-2021 08:30AM

is_that_so wrote: »

The EU has got caught on two vaccine options, the failure of the Sanofi candidate and the wide boy carry-on of AZ. There are other issues at work too, the need to get 27 counties on board and the automatic inclination to trust vaccine company projections.

Agree, the EU are unlucky in that we have no indigenous success story yet, Biontech aside and we don’t really get the benefit directly there. Curevac will hopefully be that solution, but isn’t there yet obviously.

Someone posted eloquently on this board a while back that if you understand what the EU is supposed to be, then it should be clear why things are what they are. They are not a country. They weren’t even involved on this for the first few months and they don’t have the brief to make speedy decisions on health in Europe. If the EU were guilty on anything, it was assuming global supply chains would remain open and contracts would be honoured. It’s time to treat others the same as they are treating us.

murphaph · 22-03-2021 08:42AM

is_that_so wrote: »

The EU has got caught on two vaccine options, the failure of the Sanofi candidate and the wide boy carry-on of AZ. There are other issues at work too, the need to get 27 counties on board and the automatic inclination to trust vaccine company projections.

And in fairness they were very unlucky with Sanofi which is an experienced vaccine maker. That one most people would have bet on first too and it's EU based.

We're really lucky little Biontech came through for us in Europe.

Anyway we're in a marathon not a sprint. Let's see how the UK fares against the South African variant. We might yet be glad we aren't over reliant on AZ which has failed to prevent mild to moderate cases in the SA trials.

I very much doubt we'll get out of this without further shots, possibly for a few more years while the virus mutates into a less dangerous variant.

murphaph · 22-03-2021 08:47AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Agree, the EU are unlucky in that we have no indigenous success story yet, Biontech aside and we don’t really get the benefit directly there. Curevac will hopefully be that solution, but isn’t there yet obviously.

Someone posted eloquently on this board a while back that if you understand what the EU is supposed to be, then it should be clear why things are what they are. They are not a country. They weren’t even involved on this for the first few months and they don’t have the brief to make speedy decisions on health in Europe. If the EU were guilty on anything, it was assuming global supply chains would remain open and contracts would be honoured. It’s time to treat others the same as they are treating us.

Yep but I hope we maintain exports to countries with no capacity to help themselves. The EU should not sink to the level of the UK and it would be morally reprehensible to start ordering vaccine from India when they are doing the heavy lifting for the developing world.

Next time this happens the EU needs an agreed in advance playbook with power ceded in the Commission president to order on our behalf quickly, from EU plants only.

22-03-2021 08:51AM

murphaph wrote: »

Except the EMA approved AZ only a month after the UK (I believe AZ was more cooperative with the UK in this respect too) and the EMA approved Moderna a number of weeks ago already whereas the UK have not approved it at all yet.

Moderna was approved in the UK on January 8th.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 22-03-2021 09:04AM

Is the yield from Pfizer's new factory coming through at the end of March or mid April? Seems to be conflicting reports.

Danzy · 22-03-2021 09:05AM

No, AZ are very open with their licence.

They gave it to the Serum Institute of India who are now making 3 million vaccines a day and distributing them to the poorest countries in the world.

India are only doing the heavy lifting because the Brits gave AZ away at cost and are open to giving away licences.

Meanwhile heads of international charities are complaining about the EU refusing to do the same to help.

For all the talk about solidarity, Internationalism, empathy. It will be America and Britain that drive the global vaccination.

While we all know that the EU vaccination program problems are someone' else's fault, it could have been so different with a little effort.

As it stands now, the EU will end up taking vaccines that was earmarked by Britain and America for the poorest countries.

Talk of solidarity and Internationalism are best left to dinner parties, otherwise it's nearly always meaningless spin now.

Tippbhoy1 · 22-03-2021 09:24AM

Danzy wrote: »

No, AZ are very open with their licence.

They gave it to the Serum Institute of India who are now making 3 million vaccines a day and distributing them to the poorest countries in the world.

India are only doing the heavy lifting because the Brits gave AZ away at cost and are open to giving away licences.

Meanwhile heads of international charities are complaining about the EU refusing to do the same to help.

For all the talk about solidarity, Internationalism, empathy. It will be America and Britain that drive the global vaccination.

While we all know that the EU vaccination program problems are someone' else's fault, it could have been so different with a little effort.

As it stands now, the EU will end up taking vaccines that was earmarked by Britain and America for the poorest countries.

Talk of solidarity and Internationalism are best left to dinner parties, otherwise it's nearly always meaningless spin now.

The irony of your post. USA and Britain keeping everything they have for themselves, and in both their cases taking supply from Europe and in the UKs case, India. After they’ve filled their bellies, they’ll give to the world. Sounds like your idea of hero’s but not mine.

kal7 · 22-03-2021 09:28AM

We should all stop buying Nexium, or find an alternative, until the company completes the orders as per contract.

Pablo Escobar · 22-03-2021 09:32AM

Danzy wrote: »

No, AZ are very open with their licence.

They gave it to the Serum Institute of India who are now making 3 million vaccines a day and distributing them to the poorest countries in the world.

India are only doing the heavy lifting because the Brits gave AZ away at cost and are open to giving away licences.

Meanwhile heads of international charities are complaining about the EU refusing to do the same to help.

For all the talk about solidarity, Internationalism, empathy. It will be America and Britain that drive the global vaccination.

While we all know that the EU vaccination program problems are someone' else's fault, it could have been so different with a little effort.

As it stands now, the EU will end up taking vaccines that was earmarked by Britain and America for the poorest countries.

Talk of solidarity and Internationalism are best left to dinner parties, otherwise it's nearly always meaningless spin now.

The UK is only an EU protectionist decision away from a very big problem. That decision will be made this week.

The delusion is strong in the UK.

Pete_Cavan · 22-03-2021 09:32AM

Danzy wrote: »

For all the talk about solidarity, Internationalism, empathy. It will be America and Britain that drive the global vaccination.

Back in the real world, 40m doses have been exported from the EU to various other countries but not one single dose has been exported from either the US or UK.

The US is churning out doses but are keeping them for themselves, once they have largely completed their own program they will then start supplying other countries. UK production doesn't seem that significant and if they are getting less AZ supply from abroad they will likely need all domestic production for themselves for some time. Can't see them doing much to drive the global vaccination tbh.

BonnieSituation · 22-03-2021 09:40AM

Red Silurian wrote: »

The Sinopharm later test trials wouldn't inspire confidence nor would reports from the UAE about a third dosage possibly being required to gain the stated efficacy.

In saying that, the HPRA have plenty of qualified scientists and doctors who should be well able to make a call long before the EMA can

So then, what's the rush?

NeuralNetwork · 22-03-2021 09:40AM

The issue is one of smoke and mirrors in U.K. politics. Their vaccination programme was hugely dependent Pfizer / BioNTech and a myth has been perpetuated that they’re self sufficient in AstraZeneca vaccines because it was developed by a British R&D group and that everything has been driven locally, which it has most certainly not been.

The reality, like pretty much every aspect of Brexit, is they’re in total denial about the complex and highly integrated European supply chains they remain very much connected to.

There’s an interdependence that hardline nationalist like Brexiteers will ignore and that’s what’s been driving this. You’ve a PM who wanted to put flags on the vaccine packaging.

The simple reality of it that the U.K. doesn’t have the domestic capacity to meet its own demand, never mind supplying anyone else.

The EU is likely to conclude that because the U.K. programme has already covered the vulnerable and there are large numbers of EU citizens dying of COVID, who are in those categories, that it will prioritise that cohort and not British <50s or Australians who’ve had a successful zero covid strategy and aren’t in a big rush!

josip · 22-03-2021 09:46AM

Call me Al wrote: »

At the AstraZeneca presser this week one of the doctors present (I think it may have been the St James's harmotologist) said that currently, for those in their 20s the risk of a blood clot from covid itself is 1 in 5,000, whilst it is 1 in a million with AstraZeneca.
Now I don't think she was questioned on whether she was comparing like with like wrt the types of clots, but I do think it's a decent point to be made to those in the younger age cohort who might be of a mind to not be vaccinated and take their chances with the virus.

You're forgetting that you have to multiply that 1 in 5,000 by the chances of getting Covid
We've had 231,000 detected cases out of a population of 4.9m = 4.7%.
Let's round up to 1 in 20.
So the chances of a Covid clot are 1 in 100,000 vs the 1 in a million with AZ.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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