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What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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Comments

  • #3452
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    they actually said that it reduces the risk of blood clots

    facepalm


  • #3453
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    they actually said that it reduces the risk of blood clots

    facepalm

    Relative to having had covid, which itself causes clots


  • #3454
    RobMc59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Most of the people I've spoken to who've had a vaccine here (Liverpool area of England)have had the AstraZeneca version and are all fine(myself included)The side effects were a sore arm for a couple of days and mild headaches. The fact that so many reputable medical agencies have backed it should be enough.


  • #3455
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    So the EMA has spoken but is it a bit of, Yes, But no, But yes? Kind of recommendation. They are unable to rule out anything and as if this wasn't concerning enough, The UK health authority are now making some new recommendations relating to Headaches and additional bruising in relation to those vaccinated with AZ. Call me a sceptic but this is not entirely convincing stuff. I'm absolutely pro vaccine and have doubts, this is not at all going to increase confidence, I may be wrong but.........

    It seems to be a case of "based on the data we received, there is no evidence of blood clots being associated with the vaccine", which is as good an answer as can be gotten.

    Adding in that it reduces blood clots vs. COVID-19 muddies the statement, that's the answer to a different question.


  • #3456
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Looks like these vaccines are resuming in most countries


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  • #3457
    ShineOn7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ShineOn7


    I found this great summary of today's Presser on Reddit Ireland

    They'll be updating the product information about the very rare (less than 1 in a million) condition and promoting awareness of the issue while they continue to investigate. (so that any signs of it are caught)

    Cases are particularly in younger women so far, so they'll be examining that.
    Things they'll be looking at in the individual patients are contraceptive pills, post covid and smoking.


    Edit2: Reason for the lack of cases in the UK despite them having used more of the vaccine is possibly due to the fact that they have predominantly administered the doses to older people. (whereas in various other countries they targeted AZ to the younger cohorts)


    This thing was paused over something that it turns out there's literally a one in a million chance of happening?

    Better to be on the side of caution I suppose


  • #3458
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Edit2: Reason for the lack of cases in the UK despite them having used more of the vaccine is possibly due to the fact that they have predominantly administered the doses to older people. (whereas in various other countries they targeted AZ to the younger cohorts)

    Whilst other countries may have been targeting younger groups earlier in their plans than the UK, the UK has almost certainly actually vaccinated more people of all age groups as there are plenty of younger people either working in healthcare or in one of the clinically vulnerable categories. The entire population of Norway is smaller than the UK 16-64 clinically vulnerable cohort and the health workers cohort which was done earlier, so possibly slightly more Pfizer than Astra Zeneca, is only a million less people than the whole of Norway.

    There is no shortage of people in the same age groups already vaccinated in the UK.


  • #3459
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    ShineOn7 wrote: »
    I found this great summary of today's Presser on Reddit Ireland


    This thing was paused over something that it turns out there's literally a one in a million chance of happening?

    Better to be on the side of caution I suppose

    That's not the way to read the results of the investigation, 1 in a million sounds very little until the possible number of events is in the hundreds of millions.

    The important bit is that the data showed that the chances of a thrombotic event occurring were no lesser or greater than the chances of a thrombotic event occurring whether someone had taken the vaccine or not, allowing for the severity of the cases.

    People have to be careful of the language they use, to an anti-vaxxer, any chance, no matter how small is relevant, which is why it's important to point out that the vaccine had no effect on whether severe thrombotic events occurred. 1 in a million can also be phrased as being 700 times more likely to die from a vaccine than win the euro millions (this is not true in case an idiot anti-vaxxer reads this), yet millions of people each week still play the euro millions and think they can win.


  • #3460
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    astrofool wrote: »
    That's not the way to read the results of the investigation, 1 in a million sounds very little until the possible number of events is in the hundreds of millions.

    The important bit is that the data showed that the chances of a thrombotic event occurring were no lesser or greater than the chances of a thrombotic event occurring whether someone had taken the vaccine or not, allowing for the severity of the cases.

    People have to be careful of the language they use, to an anti-vaxxer, any chance, no matter how small is relevant, which is why it's important to point out that the vaccine had no effect on whether severe thrombotic events occurred. 1 in a million can also be phrased as being 700 times more likely to die from a vaccine than win the euro millions (this is not true in case an idiot anti-vaxxer reads this), yet millions of people each week still play the euro millions and think they can win.

    Or significantly safer than leaving your front door to make your way to the vaccination centre and being hit by a car:

    https://www.reference.com/world-view/odds-getting-hit-car-8153e02f5ac36140


  • #3461
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    robinph wrote: »
    Or significantly safer than leaving your front door to make your way to the vaccination centre and being hit by a car:

    https://www.reference.com/world-view/odds-getting-hit-car-8153e02f5ac36140

    While I agree with the sentiment, not the example, as that's done over a year when there is the opportunity for lots of "person interacting with cars" events to occur, if the average US person had 1 interaction with cars per day, then the chances of being in an accident per event per year is actually 1 in 1.5 million.


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  • #3462
    thebaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    ShineOn7 wrote: »

    This thing was paused over something that it turns out there's literally a one in a million chance of happening?

    Better to be on the side of caution I suppose

    and these are the people that are now deciding our future , how long lockdown should last etc . Medicine is great , most Doctors are great , the problem is they now are dictating our lives , for over a year - A year ago we were told to hunker down for an unknown carona virus , for 6 weeks to flatten curve - we did that, better than I expected . Back then we thought the virus had a possible mortality rate of over 1% , maybe even 10% and we had no vaccine; Today we know the mortality is something around 0.35 and we have an effective vaccine - AND yet still we have a never-ending lockdown and no real exit strategy or plan to live with Covid ;thats the problem I have with NPHT dictating our lives today.


  • #3463
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,318 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Genuine question. For weeks have heard people saying the EU wasted time because they negotiated down what they would pay for the AZ doses where as the UK was willing to pay a premium and that the EU signed the contract almost 3 months after the UK.

    Now have heard the contracts were actually signed within 24 hours of each other and the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost to all....there's an awful lot of cross talk.


  • #3464
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,046 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Over here in Vancouver, we were told today that we would all get the first jab by June, due to the yanks sending up some supply they have.

    In that first group now are teachers, the GF happens to be one. All she has been saying now is that she won't get the jab because it causes blood clots and so on and she won't be a guinea pig...

    I had a feeling there would be this kind of backlash, just wasn't expecting it so close to home like this. Exhausting.


  • #3465
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Genuine question. For weeks have heard people saying the EU wasted time because they negotiated down what they would pay for the AZ doses where as the UK was willing to pay a premium and that the EU signed the contract almost 3 months after the UK.

    Now have heard the contracts were actually signed within 24 hours of each other and the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost to all....there's an awful lot of cross talk.

    There’s a whole lot of speculation and there’s also a lot of gaslighting by various people with various agendas and biases that are churning out all sorts of theories that are being regurgitated and reported as facts.


  • #3466
    poisonated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭poisonated


    Frank Bullitt wrote: »
    Over here in Vancouver, we were told today that we would all get the first jab by June, due to the yanks sending up some supply they have.

    In that first group now are teachers, the GF happens to be one. All she has been saying now is that she won't get the jab because it causes blood clots and so on and she won't be a guinea pig...

    I had a feeling there would be this kind of backlash, just wasn't expecting it so close to home like this. Exhausting.

    Don’t worry. Plenty of fish in the sea.


  • #3467
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,550 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Genuine question. For weeks have heard people saying the EU wasted time because they negotiated down what they would pay for the AZ doses where as the UK was willing to pay a premium and that the EU signed the contract almost 3 months after the UK.

    Now have heard the contracts were actually signed within 24 hours of each other and the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost to all....there's an awful lot of cross talk.

    Cost price isn't necessarily the same for all customers. The EU has a bigger order so the price for them should reflect economies of scale.


  • #3468
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,809 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    astrofool wrote: »
    While I agree with the sentiment, not the example, as that's done over a year when there is the opportunity for lots of "person interacting with cars" events to occur, if the average US person had 1 interaction with cars per day, then the chances of being in an accident per event per year is actually 1 in 1.5 million.

    Even simpler: if there's a 1 in a million chance of a fatal reaction, and everyone in Ireland got the <<whatever>>, then we'd expect 4 or 5 people to die from it.


  • #3469
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Frank Bullitt wrote: »
    Over here in Vancouver, we were told today that we would all get the first jab by June, due to the yanks sending up some supply they have.

    In that first group now are teachers, the GF happens to be one. All she has been saying now is that she won't get the jab because it causes blood clots and so on and she won't be a guinea pig...

    I had a feeling there would be this kind of backlash, just wasn't expecting it so close to home like this. Exhausting.
    I know some who are afraid of it and others who just don't want it in their bodies. It's a personal choice and it's not our place to tell others what to do, even our loved ones. It's really up to authorities to persuade enough people to get shots.


  • #3470
    mick087
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭mick087


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Genuine question. For weeks have heard people saying the EU wasted time because they negotiated down what they would pay for the AZ doses where as the UK was willing to pay a premium and that the EU signed the contract almost 3 months after the UK.

    Now have heard the contracts were actually signed within 24 hours of each other and the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost to all....there's an awful lot of cross talk.

    Yes the Oxford vaccine is to be sold to developing countries at cost until the pandemic is over.


  • #3471
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    thebaz wrote: »
    and these are the people that are now deciding our future , how long lockdown should last etc . Medicine is great , most Doctors are great , the problem is they now are dictating our lives , for over a year - A year ago we were told to hunker down for an unknown carona virus , for 6 weeks to flatten curve - we did that, better than I expected . Back then we thought the virus had a possible mortality rate of over 1% , maybe even 10% and we had no vaccine; Today we know the mortality is something around 0.35 and we have an effective vaccine - AND yet still we have a never-ending lockdown and no real exit strategy or plan to live with Covid ;thats the problem I have with NPHT dictating our lives today.




    Medicine has dictated our lives from day one.


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  • #3472
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    mick087 wrote: »
    Yes the Oxford vaccine is to be sold to developing countries at cost until the pandemic is over.

    Yes, AZ have said that but have they revealed what the cost price actually is?


  • #3473
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Yes, AZ have said that but have they revealed what the cost price actually is?

    each of the contracts has a calculation so that AZ are not penalised for things like material price increases, exchange rate fluctuations etc. in general though, it seems to be coming out at €5/6 a shot, compared to the Pfizer one which is around €27 I believe.


  • #3474
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Aegir wrote: »
    each of the contracts has a calculation so that AZ are not penalised for things like material price increases, exchange rate fluctuations etc. in general though, it seems to be coming out at €5/6 a shot, compared to the Pfizer one which is around €27 I believe.

    How do we know that the actual cost isn’t €1/2 a shot, which it could be given that they are using well established production techniques to produce the vaccine.


  • #3475
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    How do we know that the actual cost isn’t €1/2 a shot, which it could be given that they are using well established production techniques to produce the vaccine.

    Actually, I was going on older information. It seems that a Belgian MP tweeted the full price list:

    This is the list of what the EU is paying:

    Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78 (£1.61).
    Johnson & Johnson: $8.50 (£6.30).
    Sanofi/GSK: €7.56.
    Pfizer/BioNTech: €12.
    CureVac: €10.
    Moderna: $18.


  • #3476
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Genuine question. For weeks have heard people saying the EU wasted time because they negotiated down what they would pay for the AZ doses where as the UK was willing to pay a premium and that the EU signed the contract almost 3 months after the UK.

    Now have heard the contracts were actually signed within 24 hours of each other and the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost to all....there's an awful lot of cross talk.

    The final contract signing date might have been close in time to each other between the UK and EU but there would have been a bunch of preliminary stuff agreed and signed for months before this as millions had been paid out.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/funding-and-manufacturing-boost-for-uk-vaccine-programme


  • #3477
    thebaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    average_runner wrote: »
    Medicine has dictated our lives from day one.

    Not to the extent that it does today - we have been in lockdown for a year, and NPHET are dictating our lives - humans have always asessd the risks in life, adviced by medics, but not to the extent of today.

    We are still awaiting the official official notification that AZ vaccination can resume, I'm really astounded at the lack of urgency to announce verdict, given we are living in a pandemic, fighting a 3rd wave.


  • #3478
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Aegir wrote: »
    Actually, I was going on older information. It seems that a Belgian MP tweeted the full price list:

    This is the list of what the EU is paying:

    Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78 (£1.61).
    Johnson & Johnson: $8.50 (£6.30).
    Sanofi/GSK: €7.56.
    Pfizer/BioNTech: €12.
    CureVac: €10.
    Moderna: $18.

    If the UK are paying close to £3 it explains AZ are prioritising deliveries to the UK. In a supply constrained market where there is no priority in contracts towards one customer or another, a company will always prioritise markets with higher margin


  • #3479
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If the UK are paying close to £3 it explains AZ are prioritising deliveries to the UK. In a supply constrained market where there is no priority in contracts towards one customer or another, a company will always prioritise markets with higher margin

    and could explain why no one seems to be rushing to make the vaccine. There must be dozens of facilities in europe that could produce it, but why bother when they can carry on making whatever they make now at huge profits.


  • #3480
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    France seems to be determined to create more vaccine hesitancy in the most vaccine hesitant country in Europe. Now the are only using the Astra Zeneca vaccine for people aged over 55, not sure if they still have the upper age limit of 65/ 70?

    https://twitter.com/le_Parisien/status/1372878270618857472?s=19


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  • #3481
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Aegir wrote:
    It seems that a Belgian MP tweeted the full price list:

    This is the list of what the EU is paying:

    Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78 (£1.61).
    Johnson & Johnson: $8.50 (£6.30).
    Sanofi/GSK: €7.56.
    Pfizer/BioNTech: €12.
    CureVac: €10.
    Moderna: $18.

    Could you source those costs?
    It may be only a google away (I don't use twitter) but it is courteous to post a link is it not?
    One question that occurs - is that the cost the EU will pay if/when they actually deliver all 300 million or so doses or whatever it was?
    Melanchthon wrote: »
    The final contract signing date might have been close in time to each other between the UK and EU but there would have been a bunch of preliminary stuff agreed and signed for months before this as millions had been paid out.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/funding-and-manufacturing-boost-for-uk-vaccine-programme

    IMO, as time ticks ever on and AstraZeneca gets further and further away from targets, all the debates about contracts, how the UK was so clever & fast and hands on etc. becomes less relevant. There's no sign of any increase on the way and most recent efforts seems to be scrambling to be allowed to export vaccine from USA or India into the EU to help with the shortfall. I somehow doubt that was ever intention of the EU.

    The only thing that might be important is that perhaps the EU should have thrown more money at the company or been more proactive + engaged.
    It doesn't look like they needed to do the second with the other companies however, and after what has happened so far, would it be sensible to do the first now (to raise final costs for the EU closer to other vaccines?).


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