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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Comments

  • #7412
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    niallo27 wrote: »
    Deflect deflect deflect. If you actually answered questions people asked of you, you would not be such a laughing stock on here.

    Look, I know you're frustrated because the facts don't support your notions and 160 out of 7000 isn't 25% but the personal dig doesn't help your case.


  • #7413
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    I bolded the part you made up.

    Cant you just accept that a lot of people were out, many of whom are fed up of the rules and decided to ignore them. Some outside following the rules too.

    Why is this so hard for you? Its not black or white and the op isn't suggesting it is.

    You make a valid point.

    We currently exist under an Emergency Public Health regime,which has been used to impose long running and severe restrictions on basic Public Freedoms,initially on the premise of giving our Health Service a chance to gear-up and allow it to cope with the then expected tidal wave of Illness and death.

    12 months on,we know somewhat more about the Virus,we have in many ways evolved our methods of treatment,even lessening the numbers who actually are required to enter Hospital itself,never mind ICU.

    NPHET has done it's job.

    It can be argued that COVID is no longer an "Emergency" in the sense of 12 months ago,and if it is,then it is indicative of far deeper problems within our Health Administration System,than with the Population at large.

    In a Free,open society,citizens will,and indeed should,be encouraged to use their thought processes to collect,consider and process information in order to make decisions regarding their life choices.

    Whether NPHET can be still considered necessary at the current time is,I suggest now up for discussion....if such thing is still permitted ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #7414
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    What would you judge civil disobedience to be at this time?

    Deciding to publicly organise a 6k walk and refusing to give way on instruction from the guards for example. It’s not civil disobedience if you slink out for a few sneaky cans in a park and hope your mammy doesn’t see you on SixOne


  • #7415
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    niallo27 wrote: »
    I stated covid units in the post you quoted. Do you expect these covid units not the running at over 80% by now. Hang on are you trying to claim things are shocking in Brazil or are not as bad as it seems.

    Better drop that shovel you are using to dig that hole for yourself before you topple in head first...

    Just to remind - here's what you claimed and exactly how the claim is wrong
    niallo27 wrote: »
    Running at 80% capacity, did I read that right. We could only dream of a figure that low even without covid. They have no restrictions for months and their hospitals are only stretched to 80%. I thought this virus would overwhelm hospitals in a few weeks.

    No - you didn't. You might want to read that again - that's "Covid-19 Units" running at 80% or above
    Brazil health service in 'worst crisis in its history'

    Brazil is experiencing a historic collapse of its health service as intensive care units in hospitals run out of capacity, its leading health institute, Fiocruz, has warned.

    Covid-19 units in all but two of Brazil's 27 states are at or above 80% capacity, according to Fiocruz.

    In Rio Grande do Sul state there are no intensive care beds available at all.

    The warning came as the country registered its highest daily death toll yet with 2,841 dying within 24 hours.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56424611


  • #7416
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    https://twitter.com/RTELateLateShow/status/1372177760878264320

    Dublin eerily silent today! Literally not a person in sight on some streets of the city centre.

    Went in for a look later on in the evening when most of the gardai operations were winding down, as they began removing the barriers into town, loads of streets were completely barricaded off. All the roads and lanes leading to the streets outside Leinster House were completely blocked with garda checkpoints and steel gates/barriers, no cars allowed in. Was pretty mad to see! Do they do this every Paddys Day?


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  • #7417
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Deciding to publicly organise a 6k walk and refusing to give way on instruction from the guards for example. It’s not civil disobedience if you slink out for a few sneaky cans in a park and hope your mammy doesn’t see you on SixOne

    Your first point would be organising potentially mass civil disobedience.

    It certainly is civil disobedience if someone has cans in a park in violation of whatever health rules/laws might exist. Irrespective of your 'mammy' snark - if enough people have cans in the park - you quickly get to mass civil disobedience without the organised part. This bit is called losing control of the populace, ie the rules as dictated no longer are followed by enough thus making enforcement impossible.

    I'm not suggesting today is that case, however, i'm sure we can at least agree its very different from a year ago.


  • #7418
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    Your first point would be organising potentially mass civil disobedience.

    It certainly is civil disobedience if someone has cans in a park in violation of whatever health rules/laws might exist. Irrespective of your 'mammy' snark - if enough people have cans in the park - you quickly get to mass civil disobedience without the organised part. This bit is called losing control of the populace, ie the rules as dictated no longer are followed by enough thus making enforcement impossible.

    I'm not suggesting today is that case, however, i'm sure we can at least agree its very different from a year ago.

    Civil disobedience is an active and professed refusal to obey what you judge to be an unjust law. Not meeting friends because it’s a nice day. Having a lock in for example is breaking the law but is not civil disobedience. If there were thousands out and about today and it had been spilling rain I might be inclined to call it civil disobedience.


  • #7419
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You may need to review the definition of civil disobedience so. It’s not having takeaway moccachinos with Saoirse and Fiachra by the canal.

    Mr McConkey was out of the traps early on the Feast Day,issuing,in his inimatible style,yet another stern warning...

    https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/46114-health-expert-says-any-flouting-of-restrictions-today-could-undo-a-lot-of-our-hard-work

    Not to be outdone,An Taoiseach also made an appeal to ALL citizens along the same lines...

    https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/46109-taoiseach-appeals-to-public-to-avoid-gatherings-on-st-patrick-s-day

    To further underline the seriousness of the situation,An Garda Siochana issued a lenghty ststement on what it viewed as the acceptable way to conduct oneself on the day.

    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2021/march/update-stay-home-to-stay-safe-this-st-patricks-day.html

    This statement was indeed detailed and had some interesting wording....
    An Garda Síochána continues to advise people to stay home to stay safe this St Patrick’s Day and avoid large gatherings and house parties.
    Following continued non-compliance with Public Health Regulations and failing to comply with directions from An Garda Síochána, An Garda Síochána has intervened on any number of occasions.

    So....this Civi.....oops my bad...."non-compliance" may be more widespread than first thought ?
    I appeal to the public to continue this effort into this evening, please do not engage in house gatherings or parties or congregate in public spaces and amenities.’

    This evening, An Garda Síochána will continue high visibility patrolling at public amenities, conducting checkpoints focused on non-essential travel and people exercising outside 5km of their home, road safety activity and large gatherings that may occur across the country.

    Going by the numbers visible on St Patricks Day,a significant amount of the general population decided to ignore these (and other) pieces of advice and instead chose to freely associate with others in the traditional manner.

    Civil (non-compliant) Disobediance...how does that sound ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #7420
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Mr McConkey was out of the traps early on the Feast Day,issuing,in his inimatible style,yet another stern warning...

    https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/46114-health-expert-says-any-flouting-of-restrictions-today-could-undo-a-lot-of-our-hard-work
    Not to be outdone,An Taoiseach also made an appeal to ALL citizens along the same lines...
    https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/46109-taoiseach-appeals-to-public-to-avoid-gatherings-on-st-patrick-s-day
    To further underline the seriousness of the situation,An Garda Siochana issued a lenghty ststement on what it viewed as the acceptable way to conduct oneself on the day.
    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2021/march/update-stay-home-to-stay-safe-this-st-patricks-day.html
    This statement was indeed detailed and had some interesting wording....So....this Civi.....oops my bad...."non-compliance" may be more widespread than first thought ?
    Going by the numbers visible on St Patricks Day,a significant amount of the general population decided to ignore these (and other) pieces of advice and instead chose to freely associate with others in the traditional manner.

    Civil (non-compliant) Disobediance...how does that sound ?

    Wishful thinking on your part ...


  • #7421
    Sobit1964
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Sobit1964


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Civil disobedience is an active and professed refusal to obey what you judge to be an unjust law. Not meeting friends because it’s a nice day. Having a lock in for example is breaking the law but is not civil disobedience. If there were thousands out and about today and it had been spilling rain I might be inclined to call it civil disobedience.

    Does it need to be professed, must one broadcast it in advance on the facebooks?

    Thank you though for explaining your definition of civil disobedience - its quite reasonable and I think you have a point about the rain.

    I dont think today's activities fall under your definition, however they do represent a group of people deciding just how far they are willing to allow the current rules to interrupt their normal lives, sunshine and all. This is noticeably different to this time last year.

    Might it indicate that in continued sunny weather more people will engage in a sneaky can or a meet up with their estranged families? I dont think its about telling the government how they feel, or protesting, more that when enough people do like today, the government is put back in its box. Of course the government could get really draconian, but then they risk losing ever more people.

    Its a form of organic protest, I think it was once called democracy.


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  • #7422
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sobit1964 wrote: »
    Does it need to be professed, must one broadcast it in advance on the facebooks?

    Thank you though for explaining your definition of civil disobedience - its quite reasonable and I think you have a point about the rain.

    I dont think today's activities fall under your definition, however they do represent a group of people deciding just how far they are willing to allow the current rules to interrupt their normal lives, sunshine and all. This is noticeably different to this time last year.

    Might it indicate that in continued sunny weather more people will engage in a sneaky can or a meet up with their estranged families? I dont think its about telling the government how they feel, or protesting, more that when enough people do like today, the government is put back in its box. Of course the government could get really draconian, but then they risk losing ever more people.

    Its a form of organic protest, I think it was once called democracy.

    The calculus on restrictions is something like 80% of people complying 80% of the time. How hard or soft they go is to achieve this level, not 100%. This messaging etc is all designed with this in mind.

    I don’t believe there is anyone, short of the housebound, hospitalised or institutionalised, who have adhered to all restrictions at all times. This isn’t protest though. For most at least.


  • #7423
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/RTELateLateShow/status/1372177760878264320

    Dublin eerily silent today! Literally not a person in sight on some streets of the city centre.

    Went in for a look later on in the evening when most of the gardai operations were winding down, as they began removing the barriers into town, loads of streets were completely barricaded off. All the roads and lanes leading to the streets outside Leinster House were completely blocked with garda checkpoints and steel gates/barriers, no cars allowed in. Was pretty mad to see! Do they do this every Paddys Day?

    I walked from Smithfield to Grafton St and back and saw about 30 Garda in total. So I'm calling bollox on that.


  • #7424
    Happydays2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Happydays2020


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I walked from Smithfield to Grafton St and back and saw about 30 Garda in total. So I'm calling bollox on that.

    That is about 30 more than on a normal day.


  • #7425
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I walked from Smithfield to Grafton St and back and saw about 30 Garda in total. So I'm calling bollox on that.

    Lol. Fairly eloborate lie on my part!

    This is RTE offices today, blocked off by barricades.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/major-garda-presence-at-rte-ahead-of-expected-protests-plea-to-avoid-st-patricks-day-gatherings-40206014.html

    OF_STEEL_AT_RTE_8SH.jpg
    342.jpg


    Same barriers were on all roads and lanes leading to Leinster House. 2500 gardai were stationed in Dublin checkpoints today and you think I'm lying about barricades around prime protest spots!


  • #7426
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The calculus on restrictions is something like 80% of people complying 80% of the time. How hard or soft they go is to achieve this level, not 100%. This messaging etc is all designed with this in mind.

    I don’t believe there is anyone, short of the housebound, hospitalised or institutionalised, who have adhered to all restrictions at all times. This isn’t protest though. For most at least.

    Tbh the reason why people are complying with the restrictions for the most is because they don't have a choice because the government have dictated how they should live. Want to go to non essential shops, the cinema, the pub or a restaurant well you can't because they are not open.

    If the pubs were open for example I guarantee you they would likely have normal levels of footfall. We are basically shutting down at this stage to appease a tiny minority who support the restrictions and fear the health implications of catching cv19.


  • #7427
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Kildare Street
    2373398_3_teasersmall_CC_20St_20Patrick_20Day_20Lockdown001.jpg


  • #7428
    PTH2009
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,543 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Kildare Street
    2373398_3_teasersmall_CC_20St_20Patrick_20Day_20Lockdown001.jpg

    Jesus who was playing on stage ?

    Good to see the gig barricades been given the use


  • #7429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/RTELateLateShow/status/1372177760878264320

    Dublin eerily silent today! Literally not a person in sight on some streets of the city centre.

    Went in for a look later on in the evening when most of the gardai operations were winding down, as they began removing the barriers into town, loads of streets were completely barricaded off. All the roads and lanes leading to the streets outside Leinster House were completely blocked with garda checkpoints and steel gates/barriers, no cars allowed in. Was pretty mad to see! Do they do this every Paddys Day?
    This was your original post. Like I said, it's nonsense. Lots of people were happily walking around the city centre without obstruction. You seem to have Googled a few pics to try make your point.

    Just so you know, RTE isn't in the city centre.


  • #7430
    PTH2009
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,543 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    https://www.earthcam.com/world/ireland/dublin/?cam=templebar

    Temple bar like many other areas should look like some zombie infested invasion at this time

    jesus this is a crazy time to be alive


  • #7431
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This was your original post. Like I said, it's nonsense. Lots of people were happily walking around the city centre without obstruction. You seem to have Googled a few pics to try make your point.

    Just so you know, RTE isn't in the city centre.

    All of the streets around Leinster House were barricaded, that is many streets and laneways of the city centre, I'm sure anyone else who went into Dublin city centre around the area can vouch it's you who is posting the nonsense


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  • #7432
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This was your original post. Like I said, it's nonsense. Lots of people were happily walking around the city centre without obstruction. You seem to have Googled a few pics to try make your point.

    Just so you know, RTE isn't in the city centre.

    EwroELdWEAc6MnW?format=jpg&name=large
    There you go mate, hopefully I'm not accused of photoshopping this now!

    https://twitter.com/ciananbrennan/status/1372164205189677057


  • #7433
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    EwroELdWEAc6MnW?format=jpg&name=large
    There you go mate, hopefully I'm not accused of photoshopping this now!

    https://twitter.com/ciananbrennan/status/1372164205189677057

    Some, not all. Anyway, goodnight. I appreciate the pics. That was not my experience today walking around town.


  • #7434
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,947 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    I’m presuming he’s the Irish equivalent of the horned insurrectionist?


  • #7435
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Some, not all. Anyway, goodnight. I appreciate the pics. That was not my experience today walking around town.

    Well I didn't think all streets were . I was only around that area where they were barricaded but the Late Late show footage of the city looking very quiet made me think other area of the city might have been the same and that was the reason it was as abnormally quiet as that, obviously wasn't the case then though if you walked through it unobstructed.


  • #7436
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    GT89 wrote: »
    Tbh the reason why people are complying with the restrictions for the most is because they don't have a choice because the government have dictated how they should live. Want to go to non essential shops, the cinema, the pub or a restaurant well you can't because they are not open.

    If the pubs were open for example I guarantee you they would likely have normal levels of footfall. We are basically shutting down at this stage to appease a tiny minority who support the restrictions and fear the health implications of catching cv19.

    Erhm nope. Something you forgot there. There's a global pandemic on atm. From what I can see is that most people have a bit of basic cop on.


  • #7437
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    LameBeaver wrote: »
    Waffle.

    Thanks for that insight.


  • #7438
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    In a Free,open society,citizens will,and indeed should,be encouraged to use their thought processes to collect,consider and process information in order to make decisions regarding their life choices.

    Blasphemy! You will not think, you will obey. OBEY!


  • #7439
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,566 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Grab All Association wrote: »
    I’m presuming he’s the Irish equivalent of the horned insurrectionist?

    Did he cut the sleeves off a hoodie to put over a hoodie?


  • #7440
    Samsonsmasher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Samsonsmasher


    I was stopped at a DART station yesterday for the 1st time since lockdown. I had a date planned in the Phoenix Park. I had to cancel obviously. I was told to go home. I simply got on the train and got off at the next station where there is a popular beauty spot which was packed of course as were all piers beaches and parks the whole length of the DART line. A popular bathing spot I passed was jammed.

    How the Garda could tell me to go home with a straight face I don't know. He didn't take my name or details. I knew there was no point arguing with a fool so I just crossed the track and got the next train. On the train were a bunch of very loud teenage girls and boys none of whom were wearing masks and who all clearly outside 5km from home.

    This weekend and every weekend this spring and summer any idiot would know that beauty spots and beaches are going to be crowded again. There Gardaí will not be out every weekend and they certainly won't be out today to stop me. I'm going to meet that date this afternoon.

    I saw idiots wearing masks - some even wearing two - but the majority of people - grand parents parents teenagers and kids were trying to get on with things.

    It was ludicrous to see bars pubs restaurants hotels cinemas etc lying idle on what should have been one of the busiest days of the year.

    A pity these people wouldn't join forces and demand the country open up.

    It's sinply not going to open up until they do.


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  • #7441
    Keyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    ypres5 wrote: »
    it's a roll out issue when the government make the bat**** harebrained decision to suspend the astrazeneca vaccine for absolutely no reason completely ignoring the experts at the ema and WHO. anyone who claims the government are 'following the science' in their covid policies is kidding themselves after the events of the past few days

    Not hair-brained. The decision was taken to temporarily suspend the AZ vaccine based on reports of it potentially causing blood clots in a small number of cases.

    Other countries (Sweden, Latvia, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway and The Netherlands) also took this approach.

    I would assume it will be reinstated fairly sharpish.

    On a personal level, my 80 year old father suffers from blood clots and was scheduled to get AZ vaccine this week. Had he received it, given his underlying medical condition, it could have potentially killed him.

    Thankkfully, he will be getting a different vaccine.


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