What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Strazdas · 17-03-2021 03:19PM

I think the best hope for Ireland at the moment is the US and Joe Biden. There were hints from the White House last night that they might indeed be willing to send surplus vaccines to certain countries once they have vaccinated their own population (and they are vaccinating at a quite ferocious rate, several million a day).

Miike · 17-03-2021 04:05PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Ireland 'preparing to resume.' https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/preparations-for-astrazeneca-vaccinations-to-resume-amid-optimism-on-safety-clearance-1.4512324

So, unfortunately, the programme was delayed a few days and much FUD added to our stress levels. Well done.

If anything this should dispel the "FUD". This is the process working as intended. It assures that if there was an untoward event, it would undergo a thorough investigation and reassessment of data to date to ensure the vaccine is safe for the population.

I don't understand the addiction to negative spin. People seem to thrive on painting everything as a negative.

There was no winning when Norway declared those 4 cases (and other countries). If no one did anything, people would be afraid to take the vaccine for obvious reasons and now that they did pause and review there is question about how this has impacted uptake. Vaccinating the entire planet against a disease we know of for less than a year is a lot more than optics. This will not be the last pause and review

Halfdane · 17-03-2021 04:55PM

As per Irish Times article about restarting AZ programme:

“However, HSE sources poured cold water on this, saying it would take several days to ‘re-start’ as cancelled appointments would need to be re-booked and doses would also have to be shipped out to vaccination centres“

Forgive my ignorance, but why would they have to wait for doses to be shipped out? Surely the Beacon, for example, is sitting on all the doses they were due to give out? Why would they need a resupply if the doses they had weren’t used?

Wolf359f · 17-03-2021 04:58PM

Halfdane wrote: »

As per Irish Times article about restarting AZ programme:

“However, HSE sources poured cold water on this, saying it would take several days to ‘re-start’ as cancelled appointments would need to be re-booked and doses would also have to be shipped out to vaccination centres“

Forgive my ignorance, but why would they have to wait for doses to be shipped out? Surely the Beacon, for example, is sitting on all the doses they were due to give out? Why would they need a resupply if the doses they had weren’t used?

Seems very lazy on the HSE's part. Just get the vaccines distributed to vaccine sites so once it's restarted, they are not waiting on deliveries etc.. it's not like it's Pfizer and issues with storage.

17-03-2021 05:52PM

Miike wrote: »

If anything this should dispel the "FUD". This is the process working as intended. It assures that if there was an untoward event, it would undergo a thorough investigation and reassessment of data to date to ensure the vaccine is safe for the population.

I don't understand the addiction to negative spin. People seem to thrive on painting everything as a negative.

There was no winning when Norway declared those 4 cases (and other countries). If no one did anything, people would be afraid to take the vaccine for obvious reasons and now that they did pause and review there is question about how this has impacted uptake. Vaccinating the entire planet against a disease we know of for less than a year is a lot more than optics. This will not be the last pause and review

It was irresponsible to put this out there when there was absolutely no causality determined, nor whether it was a greater number of instances than would be expected in the general population (which I believe it is not)

17-03-2021 05:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It was irresponsible to put this out there when there was absolutely no causality determined, nor whether it was a greater number of instances than would be expected in the general population (which I believe it is not)

Would you not argue that it was irresponsible to administer a vaccine when it wasn't 100% sure there were no potentially fatal side effects?

Kermit.de.frog · 17-03-2021 06:05PM

Im getting more and more concerned that countries outside the EU will be effectively open while we will have to remain locked down due to this vaccine fiasco.

This has been an utter shambles from start to finish by the EU. It really is annoying now. Day after day bumbling from one mess to the next.

Now the EU might try block vaccine exports.

Shambles.

NeuralNetwork · 17-03-2021 06:40PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Seems very lazy on the HSE's part. Just get the vaccines distributed to vaccine sites so once it's restarted, they are not waiting on deliveries etc.. it's not like it's Pfizer and issues with storage.

I’d assume the biggest issue is the cancelled appointments need to be rescheduled. They’re working in order of priority, so they’ll have a not insignificant task in getting all those people rebooked.

Disrupting a big operation with thousands of appointments isn’t minor issue.

Halfdane · 17-03-2021 06:53PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I’d assume the biggest issue is the cancelled appointments need to be rescheduled. They’re working in order of priority, so they’ll have a not insignificant task in getting all those people rebooked.

Disrupting a big operation with thousands of appointments isn’t minor issue.

Appointments were cancelled on Sunday 14th.

Give everyone exactly the same time and day as before but a week later commencing from Sun 21st. So if your appointment was on Tue 16th at 2pm, it’s now at Tue 23rd at 2pm.

Send a mass text to alert those involved. If they can’t make it, make them get in touch themselves to rearrange.

Carry on as normal the following week.

MrMusician18 · 17-03-2021 06:57PM

Danno wrote: »

Reputational damage for the cost-priced supplied AZ vaccine. Watch the share prices of the others increase. Job done, taxpayers on the hook for a more expensive vaccine roll-out. Big pharma profit margins protected. The uber-wealthy MUST be protected. That is all that matters.

As if you care. Sure you wanted people to not present for testing since you claimed it gave the government an excuse to continue restrictions.

Your credibility as a poster is totally blown.

quartz1 · 17-03-2021 07:06PM

The UK now appear to be encountering supply issues from AZ

NeuralNetwork · 17-03-2021 07:12PM

Halfdane wrote: »

Appointments were cancelled on Sunday 14th.

Give everyone exactly the same time and day as before but a week later commencing from Sun 21st. So if your appointment was on Tue 16th at 2pm, it’s now at Tue 23rd at 2pm.

Send a mass text to alert those involved. If they can’t make it, make them get in touch themselves to rearrange.

Carry on as normal the following week.

That would still take several days, being realistic about it.

You can’t just stop a big logistical operation like that and expect it to just restart as if you pressed a button.

That’s also what’s worrying me a bit about the Norwegian alarm button being pressed like that without adequate evidence. There’s a big knock on impact in terms of deaths caused by the delays and there was little option but to respond to the flag being raised.

If the threshold for stopping is too low, there’ll be huge disruption.

This isn’t like cancelling a clinic for an afternoon, a vast number of doses across multiple countries was impacted.

None of those involved, in any of the countries involved, have ever had to run a total population mass vaccination programme before. No western country has experience of this in modern times at all.

Think of it more like what happens when you cancel flights at a busy airports - everything gets messy and you’ve knock on consequences you wouldn’t even imagine if you’ve never done that before.

Call me Al · 17-03-2021 07:28PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

That would still take several days, being realistic about it.

You can’t just stop a big logistical operation like that and expect it to just restart as if you pressed a button.

That’s also what’s worrying me a bit about the Norwegian alarm button being pressed like that without adequate evidence. There’s a big knock on impact in terms of deaths caused by the delays and there was little option but to respond to the flag being raised.

If the threshold for stopping is too low, there’ll be huge disruption.

This isn’t like cancelling a clinic for an afternoon, a vast number of doses across multiple countries was impacted.

None of those involved, in any of the countries involved, have ever had to run a total population mass vaccination programme before. No western country has experience of this in modern times at all.

Think of it more like what happens when you cancel flights at a busy airports - everything gets messy and you’ve knock on consequences you wouldn’t even imagine if you’ve never done that before.

Why shouldn't we expect them to be able to restart smoothly and quickly? Its not an outlandish expectation 12 months into this pandemic, to expect the HSE to have planned for this predictable type of eventuality. To be prepared.

I think what is the most concerning to me is the fact that HSE clearly havent organised an efficient system for issuing appointments even amongst people who are already scheduled in their systems.
If they can't do this i question how we can realistically expect them to manage the rollout of a million appointments per month starting in 2 weeks time..

Bit cynical · 17-03-2021 07:28PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Im getting more and more concerned that countries outside the EU will be effectively open while we will have to remain locked down due to this vaccine fiasco.

This has been an utter shambles from start to finish by the EU. It really is annoying now. Day after day bumbling from one mess to the next.

Now the EU might try block vaccine exports.

Shambles.

While I agree it has been a shambles by the EU, I don't think the fact that countries outside the EU are opening up is a bad thing. Good for them would be my attitude. The more countries getting vaccinated and opening up - whether inside or outside the EU - the better. It is not, after all, a competition.

Bit cynical · 17-03-2021 07:37PM

Miike wrote: »

There was no winning when Norway declared those 4 cases (and other countries). If no one did anything, people would be afraid to take the vaccine for obvious reasons and now that they did pause and review there is question about how this has impacted uptake. Vaccinating the entire planet against a disease we know of for less than a year is a lot more than optics. This will not be the last pause and review

I think the opposite will be the case. The only reason most people would have heard of those four cases is because countries have halted AZ vaccinations citing them as the reason. Those four cases on their own would not have been a major news story. That is why I think this thing is primarily political.

NeuralNetwork · 17-03-2021 07:39PM

Call me Al wrote: »

Why shouldn't we expect them to be able to restart smoothly and quickly? Its not an outlandish expectation 12 months into this pandemic, to expect the HSE to have planned for this predictable type of eventuality. To be prepared.

I think what is the most concerning to me is the fact that HSE clearly havent organised an efficient system for issuing appointments even amongst people who are already scheduled in their systems.
If they can't do this i question how we can realistically expect them to manage the rollout of a million appointments per month starting in 2 weeks time..

Tap your brake lights on a busy but smoothly moving motorway and you’ll see what happens. One car slows, the next bar slows, the next car slows and you get a wave that turns into a complete stop and traffic jam.

Once you scale up to large numbers of things problems that seem simple suddenly aren’t and you get knock on impacts.

It’s the same reason stopping and restarting a production line is a huge deal.

Big processes, moving smoothly, are efficient but once you grind it to a halt, it will take a degree of time to get it going again.

There’s no point in the HSE or anyone else giving an unrealistic answer to that.

It’s going to take several days. That’s the cost of disrupting it.

If they’re rolling out a million appointments a month in a few weeks time it will also be done though a public facing IT system but, you’d better hope it isn’t regularly getting the brakes jammed on like this or it will cause enormous disruption. That’s entirely inevitable.

Halfdane · 17-03-2021 08:41PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Tap your brake lights on a busy but smoothly moving motorway and you’ll see what happens. One car slows, the next bar slows, the next car slows and you get a wave that turns into a complete stop and traffic jam.

Once you scale up to large numbers of things problems that seem simple suddenly aren’t and you get knock on impacts.

It’s the same reason stopping and restarting a production line is a huge deal.

Big processes, moving smoothly, are efficient but once you grind it to a halt, it will take a degree of time to get it going again.

There’s no point in the HSE or anyone else giving an unrealistic answer to that.

It’s going to take several days. That’s the cost of disrupting it.

If they’re rolling out a million appointments a month in a few weeks time it will also be done though a public facing IT system but, you’d better hope it isn’t regularly getting the brakes jammed on like this or it will cause enormous disruption. That’s entirely inevitable.

I see what you mean but I just don’t get it in this scenario. Where is the delay in the production line? They already sent out a mass text to cancel appointments in a timely manner so the reverse is also feasible. The doses from this week are already sitting there, the staff to administer them are there, the appointments are effectively there if you transition them from this week, the people waiting for vaccines are there.

I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I genuinely am wondering why it isn’t as easy as just rescheduling people a week later from their prior appointments. If they can’t make it, they go back in the system for an appointment the following week or whenever suits.

Pete_Cavan · 17-03-2021 09:26PM

Halfdane wrote: »

I see what you mean but I just don’t get it in this scenario. Where is the delay in the production line? They already sent out a mass text to cancel appointments in a timely manner so the reverse is also feasible. The doses from this week are already sitting there, the staff to administer them are there, the appointments are effectively there if you transition them from this week, the people waiting for vaccines are there.

I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I genuinely am wondering why it isn’t as easy as just rescheduling people a week later from their prior appointments. If they can’t make it, they go back in the system for an appointment the following week or whenever suits.

Its not just transitioning appointments from this week to next, every appointment after that also have to be rescheduled. The next several weeks are likely already booked up and these all have to be rescheduled. Do you know that the doses from this week are already sitting where they will be administered? They could have been retained in central storage from when the pause was instigated and may have to be distributed from there. The staff to administer the vaccines are probably not rostered in for the weekend.

robinph · 17-03-2021 09:27PM

The first thing that they should have been planning for when they decided to suspend those vaccinations was what the quickest possible way to restart would be.

RGS · 17-03-2021 09:38PM

robinph wrote: »

The first thing that they should have been planning for when they decided to suspend those vaccinations was what the quickest possible way to restart would be.

Not that would be sensible.

The use of doctors surgeries is an idiotic plan. We needed to get major venues involved, Aviva, croke park, community centres, places where we can vaccinate large number of people.

A doctor in Dublin wanted to use the local parish hall where he could vaccinated 500 per week whereas in his surgery he can only do 100, but HSE said no as the hall is not a clinical setting.

The USA and UK are just using whatever is free to get jabs in arms.
Not the ultra conservative Irish.

It's a **** show from start to finish

Pete_Cavan · 17-03-2021 09:41PM

robinph wrote: »

The first thing that they should have been planning for when they decided to suspend those vaccinations was what the quickest possible way to restart would be.

Well the pattern for every week so far has been a drop off in vaccinations over the weekend and having everything in place (doses, staff, etc.) to go hard again from Monday. The quickest possible way to restart is almost certainly keep those existing distribution/staffing plans in place and kick off again on the next Monday, particularly as they know guidance is being issued on the Thursday. Trying to get going again on the Friday would be a lot more difficult as it means changing literally everything. Getting going again on Monday means changing only appointments and they have some time to notify people of their rescheduled appointment.

Bit cynical · 17-03-2021 09:43PM

What information are they looking for from the scientific community in order to decide whether to halt or restart the AZ vaccinations?

jackboy · 17-03-2021 09:49PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

What information are they looking for from the scientific community in order to decide whether to halt or restart the AZ vaccinations?

The PR guys will decide. It’s about saving face now.

This latest drama has highlighted a potential issue though. The rollout plan claims that 250,000 doses a week will be done when things ramp up. The fact that they can’t quickly catch up with a tenth of this number is a bit worrying.

Tippbhoy1 · 17-03-2021 09:52PM

RGS wrote: »

Not that would be sensible.

The use of doctors surgeries is an idiotic plan. We needed to get major venues involved, Aviva, croke park, community centres, places where we can vaccinate large number of people.

A doctor in Dublin wanted to use the local parish hall where he could vaccinated 500 per week whereas in his surgery he can only do 100, but HSE said no as the hall is not a clinical setting.

The USA and UK are just using whatever is free to get jabs in arms.
Not the ultra conservative Irish.

It's a **** show from start to finish

There is no issue right now with administering the supply we have.
By the end of March there will be many multiple vaccination centres throughout the country, some are open already. This is in advance of the q2 supply ramp up. If we had centres right now they would be empty because there isn’t the vaccine available to administer.

We have issues but getting the supply we have into peoples arms isn’t one of them right now.

Danzy · 17-03-2021 10:02PM

Doctors and pharmacies vaccinate 1.5mn in 6 weeks here for the flu and that's with little effort.

Getting it into people at incredible pace is the easiest part.

jackboy · 17-03-2021 10:05PM

Danzy wrote: »

Doctors and pharmacies vaccinate 1.5mn in 6 weeks here for the flu and that's with little effort.

Getting it into people at incredible pace is the easiest part.

Pharmacists need to be given specific training before they can give new vaccines. Is that ongoing, or even planned yet. It will take time.

micosoft · 17-03-2021 10:12PM

jackboy wrote: »

Pharmacists need to be given specific training before they can give new vaccines. Is that ongoing, or even planned yet. It will take time.

Pharmacists get trained on new drugs all the time. It's a minor consideration.

AngeloArgue · 17-03-2021 10:18PM

The move to suspend the AZ vaccinations across Europe is seemingly being viewed as politically motivated in many of those countries

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-europe-idUSKBN2B91XQ

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/world/europe/europe-astrazeneca-vaccine-suspensions.html

Just as the virus seems to be entering a third wave in many major European countries:

Germany:
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-top-virologist-warns-covid-rates-to-spike-again/a-56895173

http://https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-digest-pause-in-astrazeneca-jabs-will-cause-big-delays-say-german-doctors/a-56893203

France:
http://https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-debate/20210317-just-like-last-year-paris-region-faces-lockdown-as-covid-cases-spike

AllForIt · 17-03-2021 10:18PM

RGS wrote: »

Not that would be sensible.

The use of doctors surgeries is an idiotic plan. We needed to get major venues involved, Aviva, croke park, community centres, places where we can vaccinate large number of people.

A doctor in Dublin wanted to use the local parish hall where he could vaccinated 500 per week whereas in his surgery he can only do 100, but HSE said no as the hall is not a clinical setting.

The USA and UK are just using whatever is free to get jabs in arms.
Not the ultra conservative Irish.

It's a **** show from start to finish

Surely the most logistically simple way to do it is to do it locally.

Your solution would bring ppl together in crowds. Hardly a good idea.

edit: I don't think vaccinations needs to be done in 'panic mode'.

Strazdas · 17-03-2021 10:45PM

AngeloArgue wrote: »

The move to suspend the AZ vaccinations across Europe is seemingly being viewed as politically motivated in many of those countries

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-europe-idUSKBN2B91XQ

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/world/europe/europe-astrazeneca-vaccine-suspensions.html

Just as the virus seems to be entering a third wave in many major European countries:

Germany:
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-top-virologist-warns-covid-rates-to-spike-again/a-56895173

http://https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-digest-pause-in-astrazeneca-jabs-will-cause-big-delays-say-german-doctors/a-56893203

France:
http://https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-debate/20210317-just-like-last-year-paris-region-faces-lockdown-as-covid-cases-spike

I keep hearing this "politically motivated" thing but to what end? It can't be about Brexit and the British, as nobody in the continental EU gives a hoot about them or cares what they think about anything.

If it supposedly was to get one over on AZ itself, how would that be 'politically' motivated?

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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