When will it all end?

ArthurDayne · 15-03-2021 01:25PM

Scotty # wrote: »

But you are talking about a tiny proportion of the population there. For the vast majority of us life has carried on.

The virus itself is of low risk, but it's of huge risk to all of us if it were to collapse our health service. Do you not believe the world's health experts when they warn this? Do you not believe they know better than you and I? Or do you think they're lying?

The problem is though Scotty that this question of a “collapsed health service” has become a kind of catch-all apocalyptic vista — and one where the concept of “severe strain” and “collapse” are seemingly conflated, along with some uncertainty in what the tangible reality of a collapsed health service actually looks like and how long this situation would persist.

The experience from Italy last spring gave many the impression that this relatively new and unstudied virus could quickly collapse the health service for an extended period of time and thus the only way to prevent an irretrievable situation was to lock down well in advance. There was still a belief then that nobody was really safe and thus the virus could debilitate society. What we have seen in the time since is that the virus has the capacity to put severe strain on the health service, we have not yet seen its ability to utterly collapse it. Of course, many will say that the restrictions have prevented that all-out collapse from happening — but others will point out that there are ways and means to move away from absolutely conservative risk tolerance which don’t necessarily mean “letting it rip”. What we have seen instead is a cycle of: (1) State goes ultra-conservative in restrictions; (2) people largely comply but feelings of frustration, sadness, loneliness, isolation start to gather: (3) government lifts restrictions and a repressed population naturally rushes to do whatever they can with the freedom they have; (4) numbers increase and Government returns to ultra-conservative restrictions. Rinse, repeat.

I know Sweden gets thrown up a lot but as a country which followed a relatively looser approach it does at least provide some insight into what might happen where you have less stringent rules. They had a notable increase in excess deaths, but not the all-out collapse and cataclysm which many wise men and women predicted. Now, I get that people will point out differences between the quality / capacity of Swedish healthcare or whatever cultural differences, but their experience has not been one which many people (if they had had a crystal ball last March) would have said necessitated a complete lockdown of society for a year. Quite simply, the view that the stringency of the Irish strategy is all that stands between us and complete “collapse” of the healthcare system does not seem compelling.

ujjjjjjjjj · 15-03-2021 01:31PM

Scotty # wrote: »

But you are talking about a tiny proportion of the population there. For the vast majority of us life has carried on.

The virus itself is of low risk, but it's of huge risk to all of us if it were to collapse our health service. Do you not believe the world's health experts when they warn this? Do you not believe they know better than you and I? Or do you think they're lying?

Well this post just about shows where you are anyway - if you think this is life 'carrying on' I really can't continue this discussion.

Re health service collapse we have had a year of this and we still have the same old mess of a health service which collapses every winter and hasn't been functioning for decades.

Your arguments basically endlessly revolve around 'why do you think you know better than the health experts'.....in short health experts are just health experts, they can advise on what they think they are experts on but this is a much wider issue which needs 'experts' to make balanced decisions and weight up damage from lockdown v covid issues. Our health experts are embedded in a dysfunctional health service which is permanently broken so their advice is skewed to protecting this broken machine and their narrow field of expertise takes no account of wider societal issues or collateral damage because no one is asking them to take this into account.

So no I don't believe health experts (who are advocating for legal restrictions) have got the balance correct.

ujjjjjjjjj · 15-03-2021 01:33PM

aido79 wrote: »

What is the average age of people being admitted to hospital? This is the main thing that needs to be considered before a decision can be made on opening up.

I would really be of the opinion that all that matters is keeping an eye on ICU numbers and deaths. Hospitalization for minor treatment isn't exactly an issue.

GazzaL · 15-03-2021 01:35PM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

This has been a problem, driven largely by moral absolutism. When people take a high ground, on the premise that they are the ones who care about others while the anti-lockdown crowd are selfish cretins — its hard to advocate even moderate lifting of restrictions because it means at least some more people will die and Mr / Mrs Morality finds themselves in the selfish cretin bucket too...where one becomes an ‘apologist’ for the concept that even saving lives is a question of proportionality versus freedom. So the only way to maintain one’s ethical purity is to simply find the lowest risk approach and constantly advocate it, then blame others for being uncaring when an elevated risk appetite leads to at least some elevation in death numbers.

Then will come the day where Covid deaths are at a number they deem to be tolerable, and suddenly the ‘caring’ people won’t care about the deaths anymore.

Mr & Mrs Morality are the same types of people that defended mother and baby homes and institutional paedos.

Graces7 · 15-03-2021 01:43PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think the HSE should have applied it to everyone under penalty.

Some of those dance routines were elaborate to the point serious hours must have been put in just to get it all in sync.

These nurses and doctors are employed by us in the middle of a public health emergency.

Totally mad and undermining of the public health message.

They were a much needed boost to morale. They all have off duty time. And needed and need a break.

They were also a sheer delight and boost to watch, as all the jerusalema entries are.

The dance itself is very very simple. Learned in minutes.

My favourite was the Dingle Coast Guard with that wonderful background.

15-03-2021 01:46PM

Scotty # wrote: »

For the vast majority of us life has carried on.

This is true only for asocial couch potato hermits with desk jobs.

bucketybuck · 15-03-2021 01:47PM

My favourite was the Dingle Coast Guard with that wonderful background.

My favourite is the bit where I could have been arrested for going to that same background to make my own video.

newuser99999 · 15-03-2021 01:50PM

Graces7 wrote: »

They were a much needed boost to morale. They all have off duty time. And needed and need a break.

Oh cut the crap.

Coming from an organisation who has NCHDs working 70+ hours a week I’m so sure that they care about the health and well being of their staff.

Patrick2010 · 15-03-2021 01:52PM

I'd say a lot of work went into practicing and filming this

https://www.facebook.com/irishmirror/videos/doctors-and-nurses-from-the-mater-hospital-in-dublin-created-their-own-dance-to-/1090382821345924/

ELM327 · 15-03-2021 01:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is true only for asocial couch potato hermits with desk jobs.

Beyond seeing friends and having regular access for my partner to her kids, our lives have continued on.

Both work from home in fintech, seen raises over the time (even got a promotion to lead analyst) and seen our shares portfolio rise exponentially to the point where it's funding a house deposit.

We are super privileged to have done well out of the lockdown. I count my lucky stars every day.

Not everyone has been as lucky, and the time is nigh to open up now for those people's benefit. We have over a year's data. We have vaccines. We have knowlege. We have plentiful masks, PPE, social distancing etc.

We don't need a lockdown.

(FWIW I would still remain at home except for essential journeys, but that should be a choice and not a law.)

aido79 · 15-03-2021 01:56PM

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

I would really be of the opinion that all that matters is keeping an eye on ICU numbers and deaths. Hospitalization for minor treatment isn't exactly an issue.

At what level do you start reacting to hospital numbers increasing? When they get to 80% capacity? 90% capacity? 100% capacity?...knowing that the cases are rising exponentially because that's what will be happening if hospital numbers are at those levels.
I'm sure you will know that from your "analytical skills and intelligence ". You'll also know that any reaction to rising case numbers will take 2 weeks to have any effect so case numbers rising exponentially for 2 weeks while hospital bed are filling up at roughly 6% of that exponential rate could mean a lot of people suffer unnecessarily.

Or maybe your "analytical skills and intelligence" only stretch far enough to think of yourself and you're too short sighted to see anything else.

I would be fairly confident on taking my chances with covid and beating it just like the majority of people in my age group but I'd also like to know that the option would be there for minor treatment in a hospital if I required it. This may not be an option if hospitals are over run.

suicide_circus · 15-03-2021 01:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

700000 unemployed... “Tiny proportion “

We're all in this together

ELM327 · 15-03-2021 01:59PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

We're all in this together

10-14 days to flatten the curve.

Scotty # · 15-03-2021 02:01PM

SnuggyBear wrote: »

How can anyone say that with a straight face. Unbelievable

I'm in an industrial park in North County Dublin at the moment. 41 businesses. Not a single one closed or not trading! Even the gym was open this morning as it has been every single morning throughout.

Retail park nearby,
Halfords - Open
Argos - Open
Homebase - Open
Harvey Norman - Open
DID Electrical - Open
Aldi - Open
Costa Coffee - Open
Home store and more - Open
Fast fit - Open
TK Max -Closed

All the local parks, public amenities, all open and being enjoyed.

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense. Yes, there may some who are suffering terrible and I have huge sympathy for them but it's certainly not the norm. For the vast majority of the population life is carrying on and will continue to carry on until we can get back to some sort of normality.

The pandemic and it's restrictions have hit some harder than others for sure, but just 'cause you've been put out does not mean the rest of us have to throw all precautions out the window. We'll open back up when it's good and safe to do so for everyone and the sooner the better.

SnuggyBear · 15-03-2021 02:03PM

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm in an industrial park in North County Dublin at the moment. 41 businesses. Not a single one closed or not trading! Even the gym was open this morning as it has been every single morning throughout.

Retail park nearby,
Halfords - Open
Argos - Open
Homebase - Open
Harvey Norman - Open
DID Electrical - Open
Aldi - Open
Costa Coffee - Open
Home store and more - Open
Fast fit - Open
TK Max -Closed

All the local parks, public amenities, all open and being enjoyed.

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense. Yes, there may some who are suffering terrible and I have huge sympathy for them but it's certainly not the norm. For the vast majority of the population life is carrying on and will continue to carry on until we can get back to some sort of normality.

The pandemic and it's restrictions have hit some harder than others for sure, but just 'cause you've been put out does not mean the rest of us have to throw all precautions out the window. We'll open back up when it's good and safe to do so for everyone and the sooner the better.

Well you have convinced me. Everything is rosie

the kelt · 15-03-2021 02:08PM

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm in an industrial park in North County Dublin at the moment. 41 businesses. Not a single one closed or not trading! Even the gym was open this morning as it has been every single morning throughout.

Retail park nearby,
Halfords - Open
Argos - Open
Homebase - Open
Harvey Norman - Open
DID Electrical - Open
Aldi - Open
Costa Coffee - Open
Home store and more - Open
Fast fit - Open
TK Max -Closed

All the local parks, public amenities, all open and being enjoyed.

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense. Yes, there may some who are suffering terrible and I have huge sympathy for them but it's certainly not the norm. For the vast majority of the population life is carrying on and will continue to carry on until we can get back to some sort of normality.

The pandemic and it's restrictions have hit some harder than others for sure, but just 'cause you've been put out does not mean the rest of us have to throw all precautions out the window. We'll open back up when it's good and safe to do so for everyone and the sooner the better.

Sure there ye go!!

If your feeling down, lost your business, isolated just visit this magic industrial park where a business can be both open and closed at the same time!

Could be a tourist attraction that!!

Oh sorry theyre not allowed open!

suicide_circus · 15-03-2021 02:09PM

Scotty # wrote: »

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense.

Not all, many. Not you obviously, youre alright Jack.

bucketybuck · 15-03-2021 02:09PM

aido79 wrote: »

At what level do you start reacting to hospital numbers increasing?

At what level do we react to them decreasing?

SnuggyBear · 15-03-2021 02:11PM

Go into argos and see what you can buy. Very little.

bucketybuck · 15-03-2021 02:12PM

Scotty # wrote: »

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense. Yes, there may some who are suffering terrible and I have huge sympathy for them but it's certainly not the norm. For the vast majority of the population life is carrying on and will continue to carry on until we can get back to some sort of normality.

You don't have any sympathy for them, you don't even think they exist at all.

"I'm alright Jack and who cares about the riff raff".

No wonder you are a constant apologist for the government with that mentality.

15-03-2021 02:12PM

Scotty # wrote: »

I'm in an industrial park in North County Dublin at the moment. 41 businesses. Not a single one closed or not trading! Even the gym was open this morning as it has been every single morning throughout.

Retail park nearby,
Halfords - Open
Argos - Open
Homebase - Open
Harvey Norman - Open
DID Electrical - Open
Aldi - Open
Costa Coffee - Open
Home store and more - Open
Fast fit - Open
TK Max -Closed

All the local parks, public amenities, all open and being enjoyed.

This notion that we're all sitting at home feeling suicidal is pure nonsense. Yes, there may some who are suffering terrible and I have huge sympathy for them but it's certainly not the norm. For the vast majority of the population life is carrying on and will continue to carry on until we can get back to some sort of normality.

The pandemic and it's restrictions have hit some harder than others for sure, but just 'cause you've been put out does not mean the rest of us have to throw all precautions out the window. We'll open back up when it's good and safe to do so for everyone and the sooner the better.

According to the guidelines you're so enamoured with, people shouldn't be "enjoying" the amenities and shops. They should be staying home unless leaving for exercise within 5km or making an essential trip. The toys in Tesco are cordoned off, for ****s sakes.

Your assessment that "life is carrying on" is based on a misunderstanding of restrictions. It is asinine to say that the mental health issues coming to light because of restrictions are NBD when in the next breath you make it clear that you don't actually know what those restrictions are, and/or you're actually just not really following the restrictions, then coming here to berate people who are following them and being affected by doing so.

Quazzie · 15-03-2021 02:14PM

the kelt wrote: »

Sure there ye go!!

If your feeling down, lost your business, isolated just visit this magic industrial park where a business can be both open and closed at the same time!

Could be a tourist attraction that!!

Oh sorry theyre not allowed open!

Learn to read. TK Maxx is in the estate close by

:rolleyes:

Scotty # · 15-03-2021 02:14PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't have any sympathy for them, you don't even think they exist at all.

Yea sure, that's exactly what I said! :rolleyes:

GazzaL · 15-03-2021 02:15PM

Scotty's grand everyone, nothing to see here.

SnuggyBear · 15-03-2021 02:15PM

Quazzie wrote: »

Learn to read. TK Maxx is in the estate close by

:rolleyes:

Don't worry if its closed anyway cos you can go to aldi. Woop woop aldi here I come, life is good! Maybe go to Did and buy a new Oled TV with my pup

Scotty # · 15-03-2021 02:18PM

GazzaL wrote: »

Scotty's grand everyone, nothing to see here.

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Don't worry if its closed anyway cos you can go to aldi. Woop woop aldi here I come, life is good!

the kelt wrote: »

Sure there ye go!!

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Well you have convinced me. Everything is rosie

the kelt wrote: »

Would love to know whats open in the industrial park mind, trying to plan what to do with the kids this Wednesday!

All lads you are doing it yet again. "I've no counter argument or anything remotely intelligent to say so I'll just come out with some nonsense". Ye do it every single time. It's really very telling.

the kelt · 15-03-2021 02:19PM

Quazzie wrote: »

Learn to read. TK Maxx is in the estate close by

:rolleyes:

Well fook it im not going then, thats it.

Would love to know whats open in the industrial park mind, trying to plan what to do with the kids this Wednesday!

gozunda · 15-03-2021 02:20PM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

This has been a problem, driven largely by moral absolutism. When people take a high ground, on the premise that they are the ones who care about others while the anti-lockdown crowd are selfish cretins — its hard to advocate even moderate lifting of restrictions because it means at least some more people will die and Mr / Mrs Morality finds themselves in the selfish cretin bucket too...where one becomes an ‘apologist’ for the concept that even saving lives is a question of proportionality versus freedom. So the only way to maintain one’s ethical purity is to simply find the lowest risk approach and constantly advocate it, then blame others for being uncaring when an elevated risk appetite leads to at least some elevation in death numbers.
Then will come the day where Covid deaths are at a number they deem to be tolerable, and suddenly the ‘caring’ people won’t care about the deaths anymore.

The premise of your argument is incorrect. The use of restrictions is to help reduce the rate of infection and allow health services to be able to treat those who become infected and require hospitalisation and other services.

Crazy that we're 12 months in and some are still insisting that the fight against Covid 19 is solely based on mortality especially considering this has been pointed out ad nauseam.

There will come the day where Covid infection rates are at a level where vaccination can manage to prevent large scale outbreaks and at that point hopefully everyone will remember all those who have died

niallo27 · 15-03-2021 02:21PM

Scotty # wrote: »

All lads you are doing it yet again. "I've no counter argument or anything remotely intelligent to say so I'll just come out with some nonsense". Ye do it every single time. It's really very telling.

What can people do socially though, how can you call life moral if there is nothing to do. I'm not talking about pints, I am talking about any bit of social interaction at all.

hynesie08 · 15-03-2021 02:24PM

the kelt wrote: »

Well fook it im not going then, thats it.

Would love to know whats open in the industrial park mind, trying to plan what to do with the kids this Wednesday!

If it's the one I'm thinking of, you can buy parts for your car or you can send a parcel, lots of fun for all the family.

When will it all end?

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