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Covid 19 Part XXXIII-231,484 ROI(4,610 deaths)116,197 NI (2,107 deaths)(23/03)Read OP

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Comments

  • #5822
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Normal rate of blood clot thrombosis = 80 per 100,000 people.

    Millions of AZ doses = a small number will develop clots, but not because of the vaccine.

    Same with deaths. Statistically, some people, by virtue of being old and vulnerable, will die shortly after a vaccination. In fact, it would be MORE surprising if this did not happen.

    This seems obvious with blood clots and AZ vaccine; the numbers reported of clots are so ridiculously small in comparison to the millions of jabs already given. You would almost be forgiven for thinking politics was behind this - again - the third time now that the EU has caused issues with the Oxford-AZ vaccine.

    In fact, you could argue that the risk of death is higher without vaccination and contracting COVID-19 than with a blood clot alone, that is often very easily treated or managed.

    The decision makes no rational sense whatsoever, based on the numbers alone.


  • #5823
    Monster249
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Monster249


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What would you suggest as an alternative to NPHET advice and government policies?

    I'd suggest the government and the SLT of this country taking a leadership role and not just being a spokesperson of authority for NPHET.

    I think they've proceeded too cautiously for too long whilst pinning all their hopes on a vaccine. No rapid testing, no in-depth contact tracing, etc.

    They're losing more of the public with each week that goes on which means the restrictions won't be as effective. The answer to this isn't longer restrictions.


  • #5824
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Don't really see how the HSE / Government have any other choice. Serious health and regulatory concerns are being raised about the vaccine, they have to take precautions until those concerns have been definitely ruled out which will hopefully happen quickly.

    Can you imagine how exposed the State would be in terms of claims if it was proved the vaccine was having an adverse impact on people and the Government had been advised of this possibility and simply did nothing?

    https://twitter.com/DonnellyStephen/status/1371041713029050370

    They're very quick to talk about the suspension of the vaccine. But weren't so quick to recommend vitamin D. Where's the logic in that? I don't understand, vitamin D might help but we all have to sit it out and wait for the vaccine, which now looks like we're not getting.


  • #5825
    Derek Zoolander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭Derek Zoolander


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Normal rate of blood clot thrombosis = 80 per 100,000 people.

    Millions of AZ doses = a small number will develop clots, but not because of the vaccine.

    Same with deaths. Statistically, some people, by virtue of being old and vulnerable, will die shortly after a vaccination. In fact, it would be MORE surprising if this did not happen.

    This seems obvious with blood clots and AZ vaccine; the numbers reported of clots are so ridiculously small in comparison to the millions of jabs already given. You would almost be forgiven for thinking politics was behind this - again - the third time now that the EU has caused issues with the Oxford-AZ vaccine.

    In fact, you could argue that the risk of death is higher without vaccination and contracting COVID-19 than with a blood clot alone, that is often very easily treated or managed.

    The decision makes no rational sense whatsoever, based on the numbers alone.

    They’ll suspend temporarily administration of vaccines look at the data and then more than likely recommence the administration at some point this week.

    It’s a problem from a PR perspective but practically speaking because of supply issues not a big issue in terms of overall program


  • #5826
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Monster249 wrote: »
    I'd suggest the government and the SLT of this country taking a leadership role and not just being a spokesperson of authority for NPHET.

    I think they've proceeded too cautiously for too long whilst pinning all their hopes on a vaccine. No rapid testing, no in-depth contact tracing, etc.

    They're losing more of the public with each week that goes on which means the restrictions won't be as effective. The answer to this isn't longer restrictions.

    Fair point. Personally, I think that whatever politicians were in power they would make much the same decisions. Either way, people are getting pissed off with lockdown and the impact on mental health is underestimated.

    Maybe a very gradual relaxation of restrictions now on the basis that if numbers rise rapidly again, we are back into total lockdown until the vaccination program has kicked in properly.


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  • #5827
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    AstraZeneca has provided a robust response, and I agree with them.

    I'm 100% convinced this is a political question rather than a medical problem.

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1371032014221156352

    After this episode, I would hedge my bets that there'll be another problem crafted by the EU against the Oxford-AZ vaccine in the coming weeks.

    In the meantime, the UK has administered 11 million doses with no risk of blood clot formation.


  • #5828
    Windmill100000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 585 ✭✭✭Windmill100000


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Fair point. Personally, I think that whatever politicians were in power they would make much the same decisions. Either way, people are getting pissed off with lockdown and the impact on mental health is underestimated.

    Maybe a very gradual relaxation of restrictions now on the basis that if numbers rise rapidly again, we are back into total lockdown until the vaccination program has kicked in properly.

    Agreed. Cases are already rising again now though. Opening up will see another surge. We know that. We also know that the more cases rise, the longer lockdown will last. Those breaking restrictions are adding to the problem.


  • #5829
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    They're very quick to talk about the suspension of the vaccine. But weren't so quick to recommend vitamin D. Where's the logic in that? I don't understand, vitamin D might help but we all have to sit it out and wait for the vaccine, which now looks like we're not getting.

    Vitamin D is recommended for all individuals in Ireland for their general health. There is no additional or specific recommendation for covid. This is because there's not enough evidence yet to say vitamin D is effective against covid. People with poor health tend to be deficient in vitamin D. These people would also tend to have higher susceptibility to severe illness from Covid. That their vitamin D levels were low and their covid outcome was bad may just be coincidence.

    They were quick to recommend vaccines, cortosteroids and anti il6 treatments because there is enough evidence these have a proven benefit.


  • #5830
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    [Deleted User] wrote: »

    After this episode, I would hedge my bets that there'll be another problem crafted by the EU against the Oxford-AZ vaccine in the coming weeks.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU.


  • #5831
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,097 ✭✭✭✭fits


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    AstraZeneca has provided a robust response, and I agree with them.

    I'm 100% convinced this is a political question rather than a medical problem.

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1371032014221156352

    After this episode, I would hedge my bets that there'll be another problem crafted by the EU against the Oxford-AZ vaccine in the coming weeks.

    .


    Do you really believe the EU would make this stuff up out of spite? How completely ridiculous - especially when Norway isn’t even in EU.

    More information about the clotting here. It does need to be looked into imo.

    https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2021/norwegian-medicines-agency-notified-of-blood-clots-and-bleeding-in-younger-/

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  • #5832
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    fits wrote: »
    Do you really believe the EU would make this stuff up out of spite? How completely ridiculous - especially when Norway isn’t even in EU.

    More information about the clotting here. It does need to be looked into imo.

    https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2021/norwegian-medicines-agency-notified-of-blood-clots-and-bleeding-in-younger-/

    It was first reported in Denmark, I believe. And Norway is part of the Oort cloud of the EU, the EEA - along with Iceland and Liechtenstein.

    And yes, after the obscene fiasco the EU created over the AstraZeneca vaccine re: over 65s etc., I wouldn't put anything past them, politically speaking.


  • #5833
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Monster249 wrote: »
    The governments over-reliance on vaccines to get us out of this is backfiring miserably. They have no plan to live with Covid.

    And now we get to languish in level 5 for an extra month or two while they squirm around in the background blaming it on other people.

    Squirm is the perfect word to use to describe actions of most people in positions of authority in Ireland the last few months


  • #5834
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,643 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    500 new cases is deemed "concerning" and "widespread community transmission".

    I disagree.

    5 million population / 500 new cases = 1 in 10,000 people have the virus.

    If you have a small town of 30,000 people, you would need to personally meet all of them before securing the risk of catching the virus.

    The real question is: why isn't current levels deemed a sufficiently safe "minimum" to relax restrictions? At least to Lv. 3.

    Yes, from the perspective if one person, the probability is not so high. But there are 30000 people in that town, so it is almost certain that someone will get it and so it will keep going. With less restrictions several people would get it, in turn infecting several people and the numbers would quickly rise again. This is what is happening in several European countries right now.
    It's a **** but thems the sums.


  • #5835
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It was first reported in Denmark, I believe. And Norway is part of the Oort cloud of the EU, the EEA - along with Iceland and Liechtenstein.

    And yes, after the obscene fiasco the EU created over the AstraZeneca vaccine re: over 65s etc., I wouldn't put anything past them, politically speaking.
    Given the AZ fiasco with deliveries, it seems like it was a better call to use more reliable suppliers.


  • #5836
    Tyrone212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭Tyrone212


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    AstraZeneca has provided a robust response, and I agree with them.

    I'm 100% convinced this is a political question rather than a medical problem.

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1371032014221156352

    After this episode, I would hedge my bets that there'll be another problem crafted by the EU against the Oxford-AZ vaccine in the coming weeks.

    In the meantime, the UK has administered 11 million doses with no risk of blood clot formation.

    What a sensitive, paranoid bunch. Thailand has suspended it over blood clotting fears as well. Nasty old EU member Thailand.


  • #5837
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    Yep, I could cross the road last April without waiting. Now I have to wait to let cars pass.

    I live in a south Dublin suburb and was driving out yesterday evening to buy some food to eat. Got caught in a mini traffic jam of cars packed with people heading outbound. It would be a coincidence if all these folk were like myself, just buying food. I suspect a number of them are heading out to bolt holes for the week that's in it. Some would have holiday homes, others going to relatives and of course some self-catering.


  • #5838
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I live in a south Dublin suburb and was driving out yesterday evening to buy some food to eat.

    I'm glad you clarified that. Up to that point, I wasn't quite sure what you were going to do with it. :pac:


  • #5839
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'm glad you clarified that. Up to that point, I wasn't quite sure what you were going to do with it. :pac:

    :D


  • #5840
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,328 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It was first reported in Denmark, I believe. And Norway is part of the Oort cloud of the EU, the EEA - along with Iceland and Liechtenstein.

    And yes, after the obscene fiasco the EU created over the AstraZeneca vaccine re: over 65s etc., I wouldn't put anything past them, politically speaking.

    That's tinfoil hat territory.


  • #5841
    UsBus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭UsBus


    The statement from NIAC mentions no cases of clotting in the 110k vaccines. It does however say, to look out for symtoms of blue spots on the skin in the 3 -14 days after vaccination.

    Does that point to a tangible side effect they have seen in the clotting cases so far..? If so it could be pointing the finger at the AZ vaccine rather than no correlation.


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  • #5842
    themacattack.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭themacattack.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I live in a south Dublin suburb and was driving out yesterday evening to buy some food to eat. Got caught in a mini traffic jam of cars packed with people heading outbound. It would be a coincidence if all these folk were like myself, just buying food. I suspect a number of them are heading out to bolt holes for the week that's in it. Some would have holiday homes, others going to relatives and of course some self-catering.
    fair play to them


  • #5843
    stephenjmcd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,471 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    UsBus wrote: »
    The statement from NIAC mentions no cases of clotting in the 110k vaccines. It does however say, to look out for symtoms of blue spots on the skin in the 3 -14 days after vaccination.

    Does that point to a tangible side effect they have seen in the clotting cases so far..? If so it could be pointing the finger at the AZ vaccine rather than no correlation.

    Its what norway have seen in 4 cases. Its a copy & paste from them


  • #5844
    podgeandrodge
    Site Banned Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭podgeandrodge


    jackboy wrote: »
    Holding back vaccines due to some potential side effect in a tiny proportion of people vaccinated is not cautious. It will kill people and prolong restrictions. If we were cautious we would keep using it until we have reliable data.

    It's weird - stopping a vaccine that could prevent many deaths because of a tiny proportion of deaths potentially arising from a vaccine. This pause alone could cause many cases to occur.

    Damned if they do damned if they don't I suppose.


  • #5845
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Have the UK reported any of these clotting side effects themselves? Given that they have administered 20 odd million of them?

    (And I don’t buy into any tin foil hat theory that it’s an issue and that Boris is somehow suppressing it)


  • #5846
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    Bad news about the suspension of AZ. Hopefully they can disprove causation. Austria had a similar situation last week but they were saying it could be just the batch.

    https://twitter.com/InProportion2/status/1369193738183049218?s=20


  • #5847
    Rebelbrowser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    Have other countries reacted to the Norway reports overnight?


  • #5848
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    HCWs apparently, in Norway.
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/three-health-workers-who-got-astrazeneca-vaccine-treated-for-blood-clots-norway-says-1095615.html


  • #5849
    jackboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭jackboy


    podgeandrodge wrote: »
    It's weird - stopping a vaccine that could prevent many deaths because of a tiny proportion of deaths potentially arising from a vaccine. This pause alone could cause many cases to occur.

    Damned if they do damned if they don't I suppose.

    It’s up to the EMEA to decide what action to take. We trust them to approve the vaccines so it only makes sense to trust them to change this if necessary.


  • #5850
    Tazz T
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭Tazz T


    The focus really shouldn't be on the suspension of a potentially dodgy vaccine that we can't access anyway cos Astra overpromised and underdelivered. The primary focus should be replacing Astra with others such as the J&J.

    Government should be looking at every avenue when it comes to sourcing alternative supplies instead of going to a have a pointless little talk with Astra and moaning that they're disappointed that the supplies having been forthcoming.


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  • #5851
    Akabusi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Akabusi


    Time to put the CTA to good use and move over there or up North to get a bloody vaccine. There were reports about construction workers heading over there, they'd be dead right. Allowed work, get vaccinated and enjoy a summer with little or no restrictions.


This discussion has been closed.
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