Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

Laineyfrecks · 09-03-2021 9:23pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

I don’t think there is a toxic environment to be fair. I also don’t think that there should be any onus on posters to respond to logs / threads if they don’t wish too.
It’s obvious that certain posters know each other in real life and there’s nothing wrong with that. I enjoy the banter on those logs and there are a number of logs that I have learned a lot from just by reading.

Can I just say I've only met a couple of posters in real life. A lot of the banter I have back & forth is with people I have never met. I gauge people, see who I can have banter with just like in real life, seeing who I get along with. I have learned so much about running from the many logs I follow but also I enjoy that banter & reading some of the personal things people put up. I would encourage anyone to ask the questions, post on logs etc. Communication is a two way thing so the more interaction the better. I wouldn't have a world of knowledge when it comes to running but I do like encouraging people etc. All I know for sure is the forum definitely helped me with my running.

Wottle · 09-03-2021 9:24pm

OOnegative wrote: »

But any poster worth there salt will remember a previous poster or re-reg.

I haven't a clue who's who? And just giving it to you from my pov, the initials/real names put me off, could be just me.

I would put more emphasis on point 1 though, more engagement from mods and perhaps even rotating them more often.
I think back to raycun, hunnymonster, donothoponpop, ecoli, Amadeus, Tingle, they all brought ideas and engagement to the forum.

Nothing against current mods (I've met them all in the real world, sound people) but new blood should be brought in, someone to bring a bit of enthusiasm and life. Robinph seems to be the only one who still regularly posts.

OOnegative · 09-03-2021 9:29pm

Wottle wrote: »

I haven't a clue who's who? And just giving it to you from my pov, the initials/real names put me off, could be just me.

I would put more emphasis on point 1 though, more engagement from mods and perhaps even rotating them more often.
I think back to raycun, hunnymonster, donothoponpop, ecoli, Amadeus, Tingle, they all brought ideas and engagement to the forum.

Nothing against current mods (I've met them all in the real world, sound people) but new blood should be brought in, someone to bring a bit of enthusiasm and life. Robinph seems to be the only one who still regularly posts.

Yeah ok, I kind of making a point out of knowing who I’m posting to!!

I won’t comment on the mods issue as I’ve never had issues with any and that’s dating back to when ecoli was 15 and was a mod!!

Wottle · 09-03-2021 9:33pm

OOnegative wrote: »

Yeah ok, I kind of making a point out of knowing who I’m posting to!!

I won’t comment on the mods issue as I’ve never had issues with any and that’s dating back to when ecoli was 15 and was a mod!!

:-) In fairness mine is almost identical.
Are you a previous poster? I don't remember OOnegative back in the day.

Mods were definitely more active 100%

OOnegative · 09-03-2021 9:38pm

Wottle wrote: »

:-) In fairness mine is almost identical.
Are you a previous poster? I don't remember OOnegative back in the day.

Mods were definitely more active 100%

tang1........

token56 · 09-03-2021 9:38pm

OOnegative wrote: »

Is it not a little unfair to state a group of posters who have built up a rapport over many years as a “clique”?

There’s this image that there’s a closed shop for the so called “cool club” within the place which is completely false. Turn the whole thing around, how many new posters bother going into established logs and asks questions?

That’s how I learned, I asked the most ridiculous questions to the likes of meno, Krusty, digger, claralara etc starting out, I didn’t always get an answer but more often than not I did.

I didn’t expect the red carpet to be rolled out for me because I opened a log and was a new poster.

I brought up cliques because I was trying to put myself in the shoes of someone like API who described the atmosphere as toxic and after a few months of posting has quit and deleted their account. I certainly don't agree it is toxic but was just trying to look at it from their perspective and could relate to parts. Like I said I do feel there is a genuine community here, the likes of the Boards 5K thread last year is a fantastic example of that and you yourself have reached out to me in my log which I really did appreciated.

And I completely agree the only way to feel part of that community is to actively engage something I am guilty myself of not doing enough of.

Anyway I didn't mean to derail the thread with that comment so I'll leave it at that. Of all the forums on boards this is definitely one of the most positive.

Swashbuckler · 09-03-2021 9:41pm

Boy am I annoyed at wasting an hour of my run this evening absorbing and formulating a response to the clique/toxic posts only to see everyone already made my points....

OOnegative · 09-03-2021 9:47pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Boy am I annoyed at wasting an hour of my run this evening absorbing and formulating a response to the clique/toxic posts only to see everyone already made my points....

Please share, no cliques here!!

Swashbuckler · 09-03-2021 9:47pm

No way B!

Treviso · 09-03-2021 9:53pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

No way B!

First mention of toxic and sweatlicker shows up!

Peterx · 09-03-2021 9:57pm

This thread reminds me of a climbing forum I used to frequent (not on boards) where there would be bursts of angst occurring as predictably as winter following summer, and for the same reason. There was no real climbing to be done in winter in Ireland back in the day. The great bolt debate would be had every single winter.

Winter has come to Irish running my friends...

I wouldn't be reading too much into anything this year. It's a running and racing forum and there's no racing, many many people have additional tensions in their lives and small things can seem a lot bigger when your favourite race keep getting pushed back and you haven't seen your friends or family in the next county for months.

I lurk a lot here, I like skimming the threads, I never read the logs or the other section so probably miss a lot of the interaction.

lulublue22 · 09-03-2021 10:14pm

Peterx wrote: »

This thread reminds me of a climbing forum I used to frequent (not on boards) where there would be bursts of angst occurring as predictably as winter following summer, and for the same reason. There was no real climbing to be done in winter in Ireland back in the day. The great bolt debate would be had every single winter.

Winter has come to Irish running my friends...

I wouldn't be reading too much into anything this year. It's a running and racing forum and there's no racing, many many people have additional tensions in their lives and small things can seem a lot bigger when your favourite race keep getting pushed back and you haven't seen your friends or family in the next county for months.

I lurk a lot here, I like skimming the threads, I never read the logs or the other section so probably miss a lot of the interaction.

Well in my case I’m injured and insanely jealous of both the glorious running weather and all the runners I see out pounding the pavements. I may be a tad grumpier and more argumentative than usual ðŸ€ª

rovers_runner · 09-03-2021 11:29pm

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

Murph_D · 10-03-2021 12:31am

rovers_runner wrote: »

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

Can’t wait for the new Rovers Runner moderated A/R forum. Classy! :rolleyes:

SuspectZero · 10-03-2021 2:23am

I know I'll get shafted for this opinion but it's my honest view of my own personal view and experience so that's surely worth something.

I've posted here for probably 7 years now(very little in the last 2-3 years). For clarity, I've had a good few usernames... Network Errer, El Caballo, safiri and fusitive and some more some others will no doubt remind me of:pac:.

There is a clique here, its unavoidable in a small forum in a small country where people will naturally be drawn to people they know and people around or faster than their own level, it's pretty natural thing that has both good and bad points. The banter and stuff I think is pretty positive overall.

What I think is bad is if a poster who isnt a regular jumps in, you often see a ganging up on them if they hold a minority opinion, it's always been that way, the forum is so notorious for it that this forums name was the very first reply to an after hours thread on the cliquiest forums on boards thread. When you are in the clique, you'll never see it and anything said to the contrary will be met with spite.

I've experienced this myself on numerous occasions on here even though at one time, I would have been a "prominent poster" due to sheer volume of posts.I tend to avoid cliques completely as they are the death of objective discussion. As soon as you start looking at who said things rather than content, I think not only is it a problem for the person that's been dismissed, it's a loss for the whole forum as the vibe changes from listening and understanding to attack and that's not good for either party involved.

Over the years, I've probably had personal abuse thrown at me a 100 times, I've probably got 20-30 properly abusive pm's from people talking about my mental health to past issues I've had in life to slagging my level of running or calling me a bullshįt artist/bluffer to telling me to fück off the forum. The thing here is that you can you can debate with or talk with or disagree with a newer member all you like but if you disagree with Established/perceived authoritative members... you will get ostracized very quickly and it gets taken very personally and often not just by the person themselves but a larger group. People will say maybe it's your style of debate, maybe it is but something I've always tried to do is actually ask questions to give people further debating points to build on while I'm giving my opinion. Have I been rigid in some of my points? Absolutely... Is there anyone who also hasnt been guilty of that?

And I'm not talking what's going on right now or the last year or whatever, I've read this forum back to front 10 times over and it's always been like this.

Now I'm defo going to get a holier than thou preachy Bollix eyeroll for this haha but I have no agenda in saying this as I wont ever be a regular or even semi- regular poster on here again so it's not a sleight against anyone. But I think this forum would be much better if everyone approached it with the attitude of:

Read first
Listen and Understand the other persons perspective second
If you find yourself getting mad, deep breath and think why is this affecting me so much third
Reply and debate and add further question to clarify

Last but not least, remember that debate and disagreement isnt bad or an attack on you.. it's an opportunity to further your understanding

Murph_D · 10-03-2021 9:35am

rovers_runner wrote: »

As opposed to the vanilla, middle aged, woke moderation we would get from you.
Much like RQ but a bit less council estate angst.

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

I’ll take you on at any distance, though, if you want to take it back to running.

Annie get your Run · 10-03-2021 9:38am

Murph_D wrote: »

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

And woke!! The compliments are flying around :cool:

rovers_runner · 10-03-2021 9:44am

Murph_D wrote: »

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

I’ll take you on at any distance, though, if you want to take it back to running.

I have no doubt you would, I don't question your dedication to it.
My future fifty something self may have an epiphany and start to actually take it seriously, will post up my times then for your descendants to compare to :pac:

Murph_D · 10-03-2021 9:48am

rovers_runner wrote: »

I have no doubt you would, I don't question your dedication to it.
My future fifty something self may have an epiphany and start to actually take it seriously, will post up my times then for your descendants to compare to :pac:

I look forward to that. You have a lot of work to do.

peter kern · 10-03-2021 10:33am

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

Swashbuckler · 10-03-2021 11:06am

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

He's hardly a beginner......

ReeReeG · 10-03-2021 11:14am

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this thread over the last few days. It unsettled me a lot, but that's a good thing in most instances I find. Anything that makes us a bit introspective and allows us to question ourselves about why we are doing a particular activity in a particular way is a good thing. It's probably something we should do every so often.

To address the initial post, I see it purely as different approaches. I'll go back to one of the best pieces of running advice I've received from my brother: Each time you're putting on the runners, ask yourself what is the purpose of this run?
That's a simple approach for sure and the answer could be one of many things - an easy maintaining fitness run, a session to work on my speed or endurance. And here is where it may get less simple for people - just what does a session entail? For some its a 'straightforward' bunch of 200s, 400s or whatever. For others, that's 2 mins in one HR zone, 3.5 mins in another, back to 2 mins in yet another.. whatever. And who cares really if that person is a 'beginner' or more experienced? I see it as people taking a more pointed interest in a hobby they've picked up.
It's more apparent now perhaps as we all have little else to occupy us (outside of work and/or kids I mean) so people are getting more invested in a hobby that maybe they wouldn't have had the time to get so interested at this level previously.
So in summary, what harm if people want to get into the deeper details of what, for some, is a simple one-foot-in-font-of-the-other exercise?

The other unsettling part of this thread was all the mentions of a cool club or clique. I was really sorry to see API deactivate her account after the post above, and while I read her log I didn't interact on it. I can come up with reasons why not, but it's a lesson to me certainly to even send a little welcome message. I've received plenty of that myself over the last couple of years, so I don't see this place as unwelcoming or cliquey. I've also seen plenty of other new posters (of all abilities) welcomed and listened to when offering their opinions.
I do know you need to put in what you want to get out, as with anything in life, so the more I interacted on various threads the more feedback I received in turn. That's not to say the poster above hasn't done so, but it's worth bearing in mind for anyone who feels a bit intimidated by people who seem to know each other on here, or indeed do know each other.

Sorry if this is a little 'rambly'!

FinnC · 10-03-2021 11:20am

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

Not sure I understand this logic. I mean you can certainly still make running way more complicated than it needs to be whether you are wearing €50 running shoes or €189 running shoes. Similarly you can make running very simple wearing the €50 or €189 shoes. The price you pay for a pair of shoes hardly matters to how simple or complicated you make training.

SuspectZero · 10-03-2021 11:20am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

He's hardly a beginner......

Dont take this the wrong way but surely, hes able to answer it himself

zico10 · 10-03-2021 11:35am

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

It’s as easy tie the laces on them as it is any other pair of shoes I own.

Swashbuckler · 10-03-2021 11:46am

SuspectZero wrote: »

Dont take this the wrong way but surely, hes able to answer it himself

You're right. I'm being cliquey. Guilty!

Swashbuckler · 10-03-2021 12:29pm

I'll be honest this thread has annoyed me a bit as it's progressed and I've considered responding a few times but held back as I just don't have the energy for online arguments but its at the stage now where I feel like I'd rather say something even if it is repeating the same sentiment as others have.

1. I fundamentally disagree that this thread is cliquey. Most of us have put the groundwork in over years with eachother. The heart and soul of this forum is the training logs. Within those training logs you get to know people over time following eachothers ups and downs in running and ups and downs in life. With that comes a connection with people. I'm sorry but that's just a natural outcome. That's not a clique. That's people investing in eachother and caring about what happens them. Cliques are unwelcoming to others. Thats not the case here. You just have to put in the work.

2. Specifically to API's post - she joined Boards in January. Its now March. Granted there wasn't a huge welcoming party but nor was there for most of us. I was on this forum for 6 months, asking questions, following logs, interacting etc before I truly felt a sense of belonging here. Thats just how life works. Put in the work and the friendships come naturally. Also within API's post there were accusations of people not helping beginners. Type "DCM Novices log" into the search bar here and tell me people dont help beginners. Nonsense. The people who interact throughout the forum get the most input into their own logs. That's just the way of the world.

3. There are several logs (granted its quieter these days). I'll speak for myself - I simply dont have the time or energy to follow them all in detail. People are naturally drawn to logs for various reasons. For me its a few things - could I learn something from someone in or around or better than my level? could I help someone/contribute in a way that others might not? Is there something unique or different about the log that interests me? Is it someone I have had interactions with elsewhere in the forum or someone who has dipped into my own log? I wont apologise for not following every single log and contributing. I simply dont have the time.

4. I dont know that much about the history of this forum. From what I've seen it was a pretty interesting one with some interesting "debates" and fallouts over time. I think baggage from those days is still carried into a time where I dont really see it exist anymore. I dont agree with most of your points SuspectZero. I've always found you a very valuable contributor and I dont know the full history. With that comes an unbiased perspective and at this stage I've seen you overreact several times to nothing comments. You've painted an entire forum with the same brush based on your own internal bias.

As for this place being a toxic environment. I dont even know how to respond to that. Spend some time on Twitter and get some perspective about what toxic really looks like.

peter kern · 10-03-2021 1:24pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

He's hardly a beginner......

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

SuspectZero · 10-03-2021 1:36pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'll be honest this thread has annoyed me a bit as it's progressed and I've considered responding a few times but held back as I just don't have the energy for online arguments but its at the stage now where I feel like I'd rather say something even if it is repeating the same sentiment as others have.

1. I fundamentally disagree that this thread is cliquey. Most of us have put the groundwork in over years with eachother. The heart and soul of this forum is the training logs. Within those training logs you get to know people over time following eachothers ups and downs in running and ups and downs in life. With that comes a connection with people. I'm sorry but that's just a natural outcome. That's not a clique. That's people investing in eachother and caring about what happens them. Cliques are unwelcoming to others. Thats not the case here. You just have to put in the work.

2. Specifically to API's post - she joined Boards in January. Its now March. Granted there wasn't a huge welcoming party but nor was there for most of us. I was on this forum for 6 months, asking questions, following logs, interacting etc before I truly felt a sense of belonging here. Thats just how life works. Put in the work and the friendships come naturally. Also within API's post there were accusations of people not helping beginners. Type "DCM Novices log" into the search bar here and tell me people dont help beginners. Nonsense. The people who interact throughout the forum get the most input into their own logs. That's just the way of the world.

3. There are several logs (granted its quieter these days). I'll speak for myself - I simply dont have the time or energy to follow them all in detail. People are naturally drawn to logs for various reasons. For me its a few things - could I learn something from someone in or around or better than my level? could I help someone/contribute in a way that others might not? Is there something unique or different about the log that interests me? Is it someone I have had interactions with elsewhere in the forum or someone who has dipped into my own log? I wont apologise for not following every single log and contributing. I simply dont have the time.

4. I dont know that much about the history of this forum. From what I've seen it was a pretty interesting one with some interesting "debates" and fallouts over time. I think baggage from those days is still carried into a time where I dont really see it exist anymore. I dont agree with most of your points SuspectZero. I've always found you a very valuable contributor and I dont know the full history. With that comes an unbiased perspective and at this stage I've seen you overreact several times to nothing comments. You've painted an entire forum with the same brush based on your own internal bias.

As for this place being a toxic environment. I dont even know how to respond to that. Spend some time on Twitter and get some perspective about what toxic really looks like.

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

ultrapercy · 10-03-2021 2:08pm

peter kern wrote: »

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

not many High Nellys in The Tour De France or in the local Duathalons either. I'm really struggling to see your point. Also is 180 or even 300 realy that costly in comparrison to the cost of bikes, golf clubs etc etc.?

OOnegative · 10-03-2021 2:21pm

SuspectZero wrote: »

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

I do believe I was the one that made the comment you referenced above. I made it out of concern & nothing else. If something/where affected me the way you are describing this forum I wouldn’t go near it.

I don’t have the energy or want to get into a discussion with you about this at the minute as I’ve other stuff on my mind.

Swashbuckler · 10-03-2021 2:39pm

At this stage I've made the points I want to make and I'll respectfully step away from the discussion SuspectZero. Like I've always said I find your posts and contribution very valuable. I just dont have the energy to dissect everythng there and counter with my own opinions. I just fundamentally disagree with you on this one - not what you've been through but your assessment of the forum overall. Anyway, respect - would be happy to see you giving inputs in my own log if you're bored

Kurt_Godel. · 10-03-2021 5:26pm

zico10 wrote: »

It’s as easy tie the laces on them as it is any other pair of shoes I own.

Easy?!? Runners World magazine exists for this thread...:D

lulublue22 · 10-03-2021 5:35pm

SuspectZero wrote: »

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

I remember the fusitive username ( but not the others ) - I found your posts relevant for me so thanks for that.

zico10 · 10-03-2021 5:36pm

peter kern wrote: »

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

Jesus, it was hardly overthinking. I wanted a new pair of shoes and I spent a bit more on them than I might ordinarily spend on a general training shoe. It was my very first time wearing the Adidas. It was just a short bog standard daily run, for which I'd hope to be able to hit my target paces in Doc Martins. I made a throwaway comment on my first impressions of the Adidas. That's pretty much all it was. I'm glad you're still checking up on my training, but I think it's a case of you over analysing to be honest.

PS. Undoubtedly some shoes are quicker than others, and with the abundance of brands all boasting the best carbon plate out there, I can understand any level of runner wondering what shoe might be fastest. I don't want to start another argument, but for that very reason, I didn't mention shoes in my OP.

peter kern · 10-03-2021 6:27pm

more seriously your first post was mainly spot on .

Kurt_Godel. · 10-03-2021 7:27pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

To be fair an awful lot of whinging and hurling from the ditch gets done in this country and this microcosm.

Also a lot of volunteering, good vibes, help-thy-neighbour; although that's the sort of stuff that gets less attention. It's a shame it's taken for granted, really.

When have the mods stopped you (or anyone else) from offering anything of use to the forum? Thats a rhetorical question of which you (or anyone else) know the answer.

Zico, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore; I liked your opening post too.

Enduro · 10-03-2021 8:41pm

It's a pity we've wandered so far off from Zico's first post, as I thought it would lead to an interesting discussion on simplicity and complexity WRT running.

For what it's worth I entirely agree with the spirit of Zico's pont, that there is a massive tendency towards overcomplication. I think the majority of runners would have a better experience, and be more likely to stick with running as a sport/hobby/lifestyle if they followed the KISS principle more, and didn't wander into all the mutiple <potnetial> marginal gains traps that lurk (not in any way in the shadows). One of the ways I keep it simple for myself is not measuring both time and distance at the same time in any training runs. Hence I never turn what I percieved as a productive session into anything negative by analysising stats.

Having said that, there are definitely some people who thrive on complexity. It's a small minority though I think.

So anyway, since the discussion seems to have looped into one of the semi-regular AR Forum self-analysis sessions....

I've been around this forum since before it was this forum (Athletics forum -> Athletics Running Triathlon Forum -> Athletics Running Forum). And to be honest I think that right now it is in as good a place as it has ever been. It's interesting to be following a post from Kurt Godel, as he knows very well how acrimonius things have gotten in the past. Things are nowhere near as combatitive now. I actually can't recall the last time I have seen a post on this forum which stuck me as nasty or malicous. But there were times in the past when it was a regular occurance.

Similarly with the cross-over with real world identities. Sure people get to know each other in the real world. That's a good thing surely. But again, I don't see this as manifesting itself in any nastily cliuquey way. Similarly this would (in my opinion) have been a problem in the past. I occasionallly feel left out myself when I see the initials of people's real world names being referenced (but never when their actual full names are used), but there's no malice or bad cliqueyness there that I can see at the moment.

As for the mods.... the more invisible they are the better! so Kodos to them (and kudos to everyone who posts without requiring a mod to take action). It's definitely not their job to drive content around here.

I seem to be at odds with a lot of other posters here, in that I have no intrest in reading training logs (including my own, hence their non-existance), so never bother going into that sub-forum. Which potentially loops back in the original point of the thread, in that logging in and of itself is to my mind an over-complication.

BeginnerRunner · 10-03-2021 9:07pm

I may as well wade in at this stage... I'm only here a couple of months but I've been around various internet forums on different topics for the best part of 2 decades and there's nothing new being discussed now.

I've no knowledge of the history of the forum, nor do I care to know about it.

Any Irish / niche forum I've ever been a part of has insiders and outsiders.

The "insiders" tend to be around the longest, they usually know each other IRL or have real social connections, and for the most part - they're the most helpful of the lot. They essentially feed a forum with knowledge and interesting topics. It's not that hard to break into that group, but you can't do it if you think you're owed sometihng.

There'll often be inside jokes, certain conventions observed and unwritten rules / ways of doing things (a good example is of several posters pointing out here that regardless of how much shoes cost, they lace up the same).

The "outsiders", of which I very much count myself one here, are usually transient, but sometimes stick. They tend to be the net takers. They ask Qs, stimulate discussion, but don't really have anything to offer other than that.

Many join full of excitement to talk about this new thing they've found and want to connect with like minded people, only to drift away when something else comes along.

So why the hell should regulars spend time back slapping every newbie that arrives? More often than not, and I ask you all to genuinely consider this, they'll be gone after a few topics or a few weeks. What's the point in investing what (for most of us) is limited time and attention in that.

Especially when you've already got a great group of friends you already know and get on with.

You don't start a new job or go to a new school and immediately become one of the gang. Hopefully they'll be polite, friendly and welcoming, and open the door for you. But when you join something new I don't think it's fair to expect to have the same level of craic and rapport as people who've been in the trenches together for years.

A new poster SHOULD have to prove themselves. Both in stickability and knowledge if they're giving advice. There's been plenty of posts I've made where I know the information is rock solid, but because it comes from a cross discipline that's not running but is still relevant, and because I'm new, it hasn't got the same amount of thanks off regular posters.

And that's fine too. Because I've been in enough forums to know it's REAL easy to talk ****. And it's REAL easy to sound like you know what you're talking about without truly having a deep knowledge of the field. And bull**** advice being given by a faceless stranger on the internet should be approached with skepticism until that person proves their merit.

...and to a certain extent it's the job of the "insiders" to protect a forum by vetting that advice.

I think APIs post is very harsh and way off the mark. I've haven't had the same experience. But I also didn't come in here expecting to be liked and accepted (and I'm sure my log titled made sure of that). I came on here to log my training, ask some Qs and hopefully learn a bit.

I've had plenty of helpful advice since starting, but very little has come in my log. I often pose Qs on the off chance someone might see it, but I also cross post them to the random Q thread, or to a new topic because I know that someone chasing a sub 3 marathon probably isn't arsed reading the log of someone who's chasing a 25 minute 5k.

For me, a log is a place to log training so I can look back on it. If I have a Q, I'll ask it in the right place. I'm not sure why people are getting so hung up on that, or why I've spent so much time ranting about it now.

It just, and I've debated whether or not I should type this next bit, it just feels like people come on here thinking they're owed something.

In the 3 months or so I've been posting, I don't think I've seen a Q ignored. Or someone being told they're stupid for asking it. I've seen A LOT of helpful answers and good debate.

The knowledge base here is akin to that of religion - put all the major leaders in the room and they'd agree on most things (broad concepts) but put their disciples in a room and they'll fight tooth and nail on everything (details). It can be hard for newer posters to understand those nuances.

Anyway, that's just a collection of some poorly collated thoughts and the general "feel" I've got from the forum since November.

//

WRT the OP - I think the Bruce Lee 3 punches anecdote is most apt. When you first lunch to punch, a punch is just a punch. Then when you start to learn - a punch is no longer a punch. Then when you master it, a punch is just a punch again.

"In the beginning when you are learning something, and you’re asked to throw a punch, you do and there’s no technique or learning behind it, a punch is just a punch.

In the second stage of learning you start to break down all the components of a punch. You understand your stance, your fist, you practice, and you try and find the best punch. A punch is no longer just a punch.

Finally, in the third stage you return to “A punch is just a punch.” Except this time, it’s something you have broken down, practiced, understood, and integrated, such that you no longer have to think about it, it’s automatic yet skilled.

These ideas can be applied to learning anything—it’s a progression from novice to mastery."

PS - anyone seen pictures of Avril Lavigne recently? She looks THE EXACT SAME as she did when I used to spend an extra few minutes during my school lunch break in front of Kerrang hoping to see the complicated vid just so I could oogle her.

peter kern · 11-03-2021 12:01am

sometimes mods can be useful to keep a thread on track, this one got derailed pretty nicely.

at the same time this thread totally validates zicos first post that people struggle to keep it simple and focus on whats important.
then suddently the focus is totally gone, and the result is little progress . more questions than answers.

there is no magic in running and keeping a thread on track yet it is so difficult.as at the end of the day emotions are an important part . and its a constant up and down.
you can set a record in home wins then suddently you lose a game and 5 games latter have set a club record for lost home games . same coach same players.
the OP can say how often he wants that it is so simple it just is not .
for some its more simple than for others but everybody struggles at times. and most never find the holy grail. and different people react to different ways differently...
to run faster is simple yet so difficult.
my 2 cents

demfad · 11-03-2021 2:24pm

Enduro wrote: »

Which potentially loops back in the original point of the thread, in that logging in and of itself is to my mind an over-complication.

Note: when Enduro is not balancing on one leg in tree pose on top of the cross on Carrauntoohil after an 8 hour mountain run, he is using real-time mental calculus to work out gap closing rates during 24hr track races.

'The problem with the logging forum is that its full of logs' says Enduro Longshanks. Don't take what this man says with a pinch full of salt, take it with an artic flytipped amount of salt!

You're right Enduro there hasn't been a bust up here in yonks. :mad: Let's have at it!! :pac:

demfad · 11-03-2021 4:21pm

Just to address the Original Post.

I have been guilty myself of the chopping and changing particularly as I was largely looking after my own training schedules. I remember problem can become more acute when fatigued, as doubt creeps in. It is worth either sticking hard to an exact schedule unless there is a rock solid reason to change. If you miss a session, it disappears, move on. Or else (better) have a coach or someone looking over your shoulder.

The struggles with the internet and information are a global problem straddling all walks of life. There is fantastic information available to ordinary folk that wasn't there before. The problems are firstly a 'separate the wheat from the chaff' one with the information and secondly how can the old (coaching) systems be enhanced (or replaced).

The old way was that the coach had the expertize and the coaching manual --you listened to the coach/expert and you followed the instruction.

Now we haven't just nicked the coaches manual, we have every manual ever written and 100 times more pretend manuals. What's worse is that all these manuals look similar on the screen and we can't decide which is best...

In coaching terms, coaches now need an online relationship coaching relationship with their athletes as much as offline in order not to lose them.
Coaches also need to update the coaching manuals and expertise to retain the confidence of runners. I'm not dwelling on the rights or wrongs of this: that's the way it is now.

In terms of this forum, all we can do is contextualize the information and help people understand what is wheat and what is chaff by reinforcing the wheat with our own experience and how we've learned from our mistakes.

I do not buy this 98%/2% argument too much either. Surely a HRM belongs to the 98% a lot more than fast runners for speed sessions do?

We can lament how things were in simpler times. Sure the person must put the training in: but if they want to do it using modern coaching methods or tech, that should surely improve things once the chaff is taken out?

pansophelia · 12-03-2021 12:08am

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and it's given me a lot of food for thought. I started lurking on this forum almost ten years ago when I started running. I've lurked on and off since. I contributed a bit initially, and even had a short-lived log, but had injury, minor illness, loss of motivation, and stopped posting - partly due to frustration that I wasn't making much progress with my running - well aside from the fact that I absolutely love it .

So since I've been here on an off for a while, I have noticed a few things. This majority of the time, this forum is a friendly and supportive place. The Novice thread is remarkable, mostly due to the huge effort posters put in year after year to support people who are in the main beginners to running.

I really enjoy reading running magazines, books, listening to podcasts but this forum has made the biggest contribution to my knowledge and understanding of running. This is more through reading other people's questions rather than starting my own, and I often search back to see previous threads which are full of useful discussion.

To answer the first post, if you are a true beginner to running, and especially if you are a beginner to sport in general, it is a bit complicated! I trained for the mini marathon in my early 20s and loved it, but gave up running a few weeks after, as I couldn't seem to keep running - I was running every run like a race. This was pre-boards time, and I had absolutely no idea about how to start running. I didn't understand about pacing, long runs, speed workouts. I wouldn't have understood what an easy run was. Like I've seen other beginners here say, I thought 'if only I could get my breathing sorted I'd be fine!' So telling beginners to just get out and run, and run easy sometimes doesn't work as they won't necessarily know what that means (I've told people this too btw). That's why the Novice thread is so successful, there's a real hunger for direction. And running clubs aren't for everyone - I had a super experience with a club in London, but have felt too slow to join the Dublin clubs nearest to me.

So when I started running again seven years later, I had to learn all of this stuff. And tbh I'm still learning. A lot of the learning came from here. Understanding why my running might be falling off a cliff (iron deficiency), why my knees were suddenly causing me trouble (ITB, lack of strength), the reason some weeks were so much tougher than others (periods), why I was struggling with motivation at times (not enough truly easy running).

I think it's normal not to notice a new beginner log until someone is posting for a while. It's really rare for someone to post a question in the main forum that goes unanswered. The logs I follow in Training tend to be more women, great to see so many posting now, or someone who might be following a similar training plan to my own. I think I haven't posted more because I'm slow, and haven't made the gains over the years I've seen other people make.
But this thread has prompted me to make a bit more of an effort. So thanks to everyone here who has been contributing to this forum over the years - ye've been great.

Enduro · 12-03-2021 12:27am

demfad wrote: »

You're right Enduro there hasn't been a bust up here in yonks. :mad: Let's have at it!! :pac:

I'll tell ya something.... If I was in true Monty Python style wanting an argument, you'd be right up there in the font ranks of people to Have at it

(on boards anyway.... )

Funnily enough, you were one of the people I was thinking of when I was talking about the minority who thrive on complexity.

robinph · 12-03-2021 10:19am

pansophelia wrote: »

To answer the first post, if you are a true beginner to running, and especially if you are a beginner to sport in general, it is a bit complicated! I trained for the mini marathon in my early 20s and loved it, but gave up running a few weeks after, as I couldn't seem to keep running - I was running every run like a race. This was pre-boards time, and I had absolutely no idea about how to start running. I didn't understand about pacing, long runs, speed workouts. I wouldn't have understood what an easy run was. Like I've seen other beginners here say, I thought 'if only I could get my breathing sorted I'd be fine!' So telling beginners to just get out and run, and run easy sometimes doesn't work as they won't necessarily know what that means (I've told people this too btw). That's why the Novice thread is so successful, there's a real hunger for direction. And running clubs aren't for everyone - I had a super experience with a club in London, but have felt too slow to join the Dublin clubs nearest to me.

So when I started running again seven years later, I had to learn all of this stuff. And tbh I'm still learning. A lot of the learning came from here. Understanding why my running might be falling off a cliff (iron deficiency), why my knees were suddenly causing me trouble (ITB, lack of strength), the reason some weeks were so much tougher than others (periods), why I was struggling with motivation at times (not enough truly easy running).

It's a long time since my being a beginner runner days, and even at the points where I returned to running I either somehow already knew, or was too lazy, to ever think that running hard in training was something I needed to do. My training has always been about just plodding round.

I can totally see why newcomers would be thinking that running is meant to be hard though, you see people exhausted at the end end of a marathon on the telly, collapsed on the floor, advertising shows people dripping in sweat and looking like they are in pain but then we're told that it feels good despite the pained looks. General phrases in conversation with non runners might include lines about how they would die if they had to run for the bus and how its a generally unpleasant thing to do. Only really adverts showing people running through mountains and looking at sunny vistas would show running as a non-painful pursuit, otherwise it is all about the pain and buckets of sweat, never just enjoying the activity.

So, how do we convince a new runner to just do it for fun, not to try and destroy themselves on every run, don't worry about heart rate or cadence and just run, or walk but mostly just move at a comfortable pace? I hear lots of people raving about the likes of couch 2 5km apps, but never having used one, are they approaching things from a different perspective and making it more about just maintaining forward momentum and ignoring the pace?

What would have convinced relatively the new runners here to take things simpler early on? How can the perception of what running is be changed for those joining for the first time?

peter kern · 12-03-2021 10:53am

at the end of the day a lot of the complication is driven from the top t0 bottom ie pretty much every new gadgeds etc is usually given to the fastest guys first , project 2 for instance then top amateurs adopt the shoes then amateur and then beginners
same with hr monitors garmins they when not used by beginners yet there is very little evidence that they are better than training with perceived effort scales.
so the reason beginners have this overfloat of information is not so much a beginner issue its a sport issue .
now sub 2 project just happened to be the first time in 4 decades or so that a promoted game changer shoe ... actually is a real improvement at the same time for each new invention that makes a real improvement you have 100 products that dont .
so the main issue for runners is to filter what works in general and what works for me. for everything there is responders and non responders.
the thing is if the somewhat more experience athlete cant work it out how is the beginner supposed to work it out who sees all this people using this and that and talking about this and that .
which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game . its not easy to make money of selliing consistency they have to promote other things most of the time the fluff.
so i would say the problem is much more driven from top to bottom than from bottom to top .

Kander · 12-03-2021 1:25pm

peter kern wrote: »

which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game .

And the "What shoes you wearing now and what next?" thread :P. It's not a hard sell for most of us here

pansophelia · 12-03-2021 10:19pm

robinph wrote: »

So, how do we convince a new runner to just do it for fun, not to try and destroy themselves on every run, don't worry about heart rate or cadence and just run, or walk but mostly just move at a comfortable pace? I hear lots of people raving about the likes of couch 2 5km apps, but never having used one, are they approaching things from a different perspective and making it more about just maintaining forward momentum and ignoring the pace?

What would have convinced relatively the new runners here to take things simpler early on? How can the perception of what running is be changed for those joining for the first time?

I think that's a great question. Part of the issue is I suppose, that not all beginners are created equal. Some beginners have a background in sport, have spent years doing GAA, soccer, cycling, swimming etc, so even if they've never done much running, they have a good aerobic fitness and have some idea about the principles of training. They could probably head straight out the door and do a couple of miles on their first ever time running. Heard Sophie Power, a UK ultra runner on a podcast lately, she signed up for Comrades and completed it having only ever run a couple of miles - but she had taken up team sport in university and had done a lot of multi-day hikes.

Other people (like me) had absolutely no sport background - little to no organised team sports, a few games of Unihoc during PE as a teenager, occasional gym sessions in my 20s - so when I started running I could only do a couple of minutes at a time and was delighted when I managed my first mile. I can't really remember but think I might have used one of the Couch to 5k apps, but think I was nearly running 5k by the time I found it. They are good in that they progress slowly and encourage lots of walking. I think this is why some beginner running programmes like Forget the Gym do so well - supportive environments and advice for people who really need to learn how to start off in a way that will make sure they keep going.
The odd running club seems to cater for this group as well, but less common. I have a LOT of trouble persuading my female friends that running is a fun thing to do. This group are much more vulnerable to drop off (in my opinion) and it wouldn't take much to knock their confidence in the sport. I've been trail running with She Summits a few times and they are a very supportive group to beginners and intermediates.

The novice thread had a great pro forma they got newbies to fill out so they could get an idea of background and goals with questions like - 'Do you still take walk breaks when you run?' and 'Have you ever done a race' - this probably allows for much more nuanced advice.

I wonder should we have a 'New to Running' Sticky at the beginning of the forum for beginners to pop questions into a more specific thread?
Edited to Add: Just spotted RayCun's at the top of the page which has some links - didn't realise we had a Couch to 5K thread!

pansophelia · 12-03-2021 10:27pm

peter kern wrote: »

at the end of the day a lot of the complication is driven from the top t0 bottom ie pretty much every new gadgeds etc is usually given to the fastest guys first , project 2 for instance then top amateurs adopt the shoes then amateur and then beginners
same with hr monitors garmins they when not used by beginners yet there is very little evidence that they are better than training with perceived effort scales.
so the reason beginners have this overfloat of information is not so much a beginner issue its a sport issue .
now sub 2 project just happened to be the first time in 4 decades or so that a promoted game changer shoe ... actually is a real improvement at the same time for each new invention that makes a real improvement you have 100 products that dont .
so the main issue for runners is to filter what works in general and what works for me. for everything there is responders and non responders.
the thing is if the somewhat more experience athlete cant work it out how is the beginner supposed to work it out who sees all this people using this and that and talking about this and that .
which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game . its not easy to make money of selliing consistency they have to promote other things most of the time the fluff.
so i would say the problem is much more driven from top to bottom than from bottom to top .

So true - the marketing can be really distracting. Instagram might be making it worse. I think most of my early gear was from Penneys, apart from the sports bra and the runners, and I ran my first Dublin marathon with a ten euro stopwatch from Argos - I wouldn't dream of doing that now.
It's an issue too as even though running is potentially a really cheap sport, it isn't as diverse as you'd hope, and I wonder are the runners and the gear and the gadgets contributing to that?

robinph · 12-03-2021 11:22pm

pansophelia wrote: »

I think that's a great question. Part of the issue is I suppose, that not all beginners are created equal. Some beginners have a background in sport, have spent years doing GAA, soccer, cycling, swimming etc, so even if they've never done much running, they have a good aerobic fitness and have some idea about the principles of training. They could probably head straight out the door and do a couple of miles on their first ever time running. Heard Sophie Power, a UK ultra runner on a podcast lately, she signed up for Comrades and completed it having only ever run a couple of miles - but she had taken up team sport in university and had done a lot of multi-day hikes.

Wondering if there might also be a difference between cyclists or swimmers switching to running compared to those coming from skill/ team/ ball sports?

Swimmers and cyclists know that you have to get the long slow duration training in, but another skill based or ball sport probably only encounters running in their training in terms of short sharp sprints. Their distance training equivalent is the likes of kicking a ball against a wall repeatedly, throwing the thing repeatedly or whatever is required to make that skill second nature and their running isn't something to particularly spend time on.

Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

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