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Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

zico10

After a few weeks running, beginners are coming on here with a list of questions about breathing, cadence, heart rate, etc., etc., questions that are akin to the marginal gains Team Sky were chasing in professional cycling. Instead of being told not to worry about what is essentially the icing on a much, much bigger cake, they are given an answer that I’d need the Rosetta Stone to decipher.

Meanwhile over in the logs, a very experienced runner recognises the improvements another logger is making, are down to the simplicity and consistency of his training. Yet the same runner goes out the door with sessions programmed into his Garmin* that draw on the ideas of several different training plans. Then a few weeks later, after having listened to one too many podcasts and digested the contents of yet another training plan, decides things aren’t working and changes things once more.
*This is a big assumption possibly, but from looking at some of his runs on Strava, I don’t know how else he’d remember what he has to do.

At its most basic, running is merely putting one foot in front of the other as fast as you can. It’s an innate ability we all have, and when it comes to training, “Keep it simple and straightforward!” is possibly the best advice you’ll get.

Discuss.

PS. No slight intended to any poster.

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Peterx

This thread reminds me of a climbing forum I used to frequent (not on boards) where there would be bursts of angst occurring as predictably as winter following summer, and for the same reason. There was no real climbing to be done in winter in Ireland back in the day. The great bolt debate would be had every single winter.

Winter has come to Irish running my friends...

I wouldn't be reading too much into anything this year. It's a running and racing forum and there's no racing, many many people have additional tensions in their lives and small things can seem a lot bigger when your favourite race keep getting pushed back and you haven't seen your friends or family in the next county for months.

I lurk a lot here, I like skimming the threads, I never read the logs or the other section so probably miss a lot of the interaction.

lulublue22

Peterx wrote: »

This thread reminds me of a climbing forum I used to frequent (not on boards) where there would be bursts of angst occurring as predictably as winter following summer, and for the same reason. There was no real climbing to be done in winter in Ireland back in the day. The great bolt debate would be had every single winter.

Winter has come to Irish running my friends...

I wouldn't be reading too much into anything this year. It's a running and racing forum and there's no racing, many many people have additional tensions in their lives and small things can seem a lot bigger when your favourite race keep getting pushed back and you haven't seen your friends or family in the next county for months.

I lurk a lot here, I like skimming the threads, I never read the logs or the other section so probably miss a lot of the interaction.

Well in my case I’m injured and insanely jealous of both the glorious running weather and all the runners I see out pounding the pavements. I may be a tad grumpier and more argumentative than usual ðŸ€ª

rovers_runner

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

Murph_D

rovers_runner wrote: »

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

Can’t wait for the new Rovers Runner moderated A/R forum. Classy! :rolleyes:

SuspectZero

I know I'll get shafted for this opinion but it's my honest view of my own personal view and experience so that's surely worth something.

I've posted here for probably 7 years now(very little in the last 2-3 years). For clarity, I've had a good few usernames... Network Errer, El Caballo, safiri and fusitive and some more some others will no doubt remind me of:pac:.

There is a clique here, its unavoidable in a small forum in a small country where people will naturally be drawn to people they know and people around or faster than their own level, it's pretty natural thing that has both good and bad points. The banter and stuff I think is pretty positive overall.

What I think is bad is if a poster who isnt a regular jumps in, you often see a ganging up on them if they hold a minority opinion, it's always been that way, the forum is so notorious for it that this forums name was the very first reply to an after hours thread on the cliquiest forums on boards thread. When you are in the clique, you'll never see it and anything said to the contrary will be met with spite.

I've experienced this myself on numerous occasions on here even though at one time, I would have been a "prominent poster" due to sheer volume of posts.I tend to avoid cliques completely as they are the death of objective discussion. As soon as you start looking at who said things rather than content, I think not only is it a problem for the person that's been dismissed, it's a loss for the whole forum as the vibe changes from listening and understanding to attack and that's not good for either party involved.

Over the years, I've probably had personal abuse thrown at me a 100 times, I've probably got 20-30 properly abusive pm's from people talking about my mental health to past issues I've had in life to slagging my level of running or calling me a bullshįt artist/bluffer to telling me to fück off the forum. The thing here is that you can you can debate with or talk with or disagree with a newer member all you like but if you disagree with Established/perceived authoritative members... you will get ostracized very quickly and it gets taken very personally and often not just by the person themselves but a larger group. People will say maybe it's your style of debate, maybe it is but something I've always tried to do is actually ask questions to give people further debating points to build on while I'm giving my opinion. Have I been rigid in some of my points? Absolutely... Is there anyone who also hasnt been guilty of that?

And I'm not talking what's going on right now or the last year or whatever, I've read this forum back to front 10 times over and it's always been like this.

Now I'm defo going to get a holier than thou preachy Bollix eyeroll for this haha but I have no agenda in saying this as I wont ever be a regular or even semi- regular poster on here again so it's not a sleight against anyone. But I think this forum would be much better if everyone approached it with the attitude of:

Read first
Listen and Understand the other persons perspective second
If you find yourself getting mad, deep breath and think why is this affecting me so much third
Reply and debate and add further question to clarify

Last but not least, remember that debate and disagreement isnt bad or an attack on you.. it's an opportunity to further your understanding

Murph_D

rovers_runner wrote: »

As opposed to the vanilla, middle aged, woke moderation we would get from you.
Much like RQ but a bit less council estate angst.

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

I’ll take you on at any distance, though, if you want to take it back to running.

Annie get your Run

Murph_D wrote: »

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

And woke!! The compliments are flying around :cool:

rovers_runner

Murph_D wrote: »

Middle age? Those were the days! :pac:

I’ll take you on at any distance, though, if you want to take it back to running.

I have no doubt you would, I don't question your dedication to it.
My future fifty something self may have an epiphany and start to actually take it seriously, will post up my times then for your descendants to compare to :pac:

Murph_D

rovers_runner wrote: »

I have no doubt you would, I don't question your dedication to it.
My future fifty something self may have an epiphany and start to actually take it seriously, will post up my times then for your descendants to compare to :pac:

I look forward to that. You have a lot of work to do.

peter kern

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

Swashbuckler

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

He's hardly a beginner......

ReeReeG

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this thread over the last few days. It unsettled me a lot, but that's a good thing in most instances I find. Anything that makes us a bit introspective and allows us to question ourselves about why we are doing a particular activity in a particular way is a good thing. It's probably something we should do every so often.

To address the initial post, I see it purely as different approaches. I'll go back to one of the best pieces of running advice I've received from my brother: Each time you're putting on the runners, ask yourself what is the purpose of this run?
That's a simple approach for sure and the answer could be one of many things - an easy maintaining fitness run, a session to work on my speed or endurance. And here is where it may get less simple for people - just what does a session entail? For some its a 'straightforward' bunch of 200s, 400s or whatever. For others, that's 2 mins in one HR zone, 3.5 mins in another, back to 2 mins in yet another.. whatever. And who cares really if that person is a 'beginner' or more experienced? I see it as people taking a more pointed interest in a hobby they've picked up.
It's more apparent now perhaps as we all have little else to occupy us (outside of work and/or kids I mean) so people are getting more invested in a hobby that maybe they wouldn't have had the time to get so interested at this level previously.
So in summary, what harm if people want to get into the deeper details of what, for some, is a simple one-foot-in-font-of-the-other exercise?

The other unsettling part of this thread was all the mentions of a cool club or clique. I was really sorry to see API deactivate her account after the post above, and while I read her log I didn't interact on it. I can come up with reasons why not, but it's a lesson to me certainly to even send a little welcome message. I've received plenty of that myself over the last couple of years, so I don't see this place as unwelcoming or cliquey. I've also seen plenty of other new posters (of all abilities) welcomed and listened to when offering their opinions.
I do know you need to put in what you want to get out, as with anything in life, so the more I interacted on various threads the more feedback I received in turn. That's not to say the poster above hasn't done so, but it's worth bearing in mind for anyone who feels a bit intimidated by people who seem to know each other on here, or indeed do know each other.

Sorry if this is a little 'rambly'!

FinnC

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

Not sure I understand this logic. I mean you can certainly still make running way more complicated than it needs to be whether you are wearing €50 running shoes or €189 running shoes. Similarly you can make running very simple wearing the €50 or €189 shoes. The price you pay for a pair of shoes hardly matters to how simple or complicated you make training.

SuspectZero

Swashbuckler wrote: »

He's hardly a beginner......

Dont take this the wrong way but surely, hes able to answer it himself

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

zicio i just read your blog how does buying 189 euro training shoes in the hope to hit the target numbers a bit easier fit your narritive to keep it simple and honest ?

It’s as easy tie the laces on them as it is any other pair of shoes I own.

Swashbuckler

SuspectZero wrote: »

Dont take this the wrong way but surely, hes able to answer it himself

You're right. I'm being cliquey. Guilty!

Swashbuckler

I'll be honest this thread has annoyed me a bit as it's progressed and I've considered responding a few times but held back as I just don't have the energy for online arguments but its at the stage now where I feel like I'd rather say something even if it is repeating the same sentiment as others have.

1. I fundamentally disagree that this thread is cliquey. Most of us have put the groundwork in over years with eachother. The heart and soul of this forum is the training logs. Within those training logs you get to know people over time following eachothers ups and downs in running and ups and downs in life. With that comes a connection with people. I'm sorry but that's just a natural outcome. That's not a clique. That's people investing in eachother and caring about what happens them. Cliques are unwelcoming to others. Thats not the case here. You just have to put in the work.

2. Specifically to API's post - she joined Boards in January. Its now March. Granted there wasn't a huge welcoming party but nor was there for most of us. I was on this forum for 6 months, asking questions, following logs, interacting etc before I truly felt a sense of belonging here. Thats just how life works. Put in the work and the friendships come naturally. Also within API's post there were accusations of people not helping beginners. Type "DCM Novices log" into the search bar here and tell me people dont help beginners. Nonsense. The people who interact throughout the forum get the most input into their own logs. That's just the way of the world.

3. There are several logs (granted its quieter these days). I'll speak for myself - I simply dont have the time or energy to follow them all in detail. People are naturally drawn to logs for various reasons. For me its a few things - could I learn something from someone in or around or better than my level? could I help someone/contribute in a way that others might not? Is there something unique or different about the log that interests me? Is it someone I have had interactions with elsewhere in the forum or someone who has dipped into my own log? I wont apologise for not following every single log and contributing. I simply dont have the time.

4. I dont know that much about the history of this forum. From what I've seen it was a pretty interesting one with some interesting "debates" and fallouts over time. I think baggage from those days is still carried into a time where I dont really see it exist anymore. I dont agree with most of your points SuspectZero. I've always found you a very valuable contributor and I dont know the full history. With that comes an unbiased perspective and at this stage I've seen you overreact several times to nothing comments. You've painted an entire forum with the same brush based on your own internal bias.

As for this place being a toxic environment. I dont even know how to respond to that. Spend some time on Twitter and get some perspective about what toxic really looks like.

peter kern

Swashbuckler wrote: »

He's hardly a beginner......

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

SuspectZero

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'll be honest this thread has annoyed me a bit as it's progressed and I've considered responding a few times but held back as I just don't have the energy for online arguments but its at the stage now where I feel like I'd rather say something even if it is repeating the same sentiment as others have.

1. I fundamentally disagree that this thread is cliquey. Most of us have put the groundwork in over years with eachother. The heart and soul of this forum is the training logs. Within those training logs you get to know people over time following eachothers ups and downs in running and ups and downs in life. With that comes a connection with people. I'm sorry but that's just a natural outcome. That's not a clique. That's people investing in eachother and caring about what happens them. Cliques are unwelcoming to others. Thats not the case here. You just have to put in the work.

2. Specifically to API's post - she joined Boards in January. Its now March. Granted there wasn't a huge welcoming party but nor was there for most of us. I was on this forum for 6 months, asking questions, following logs, interacting etc before I truly felt a sense of belonging here. Thats just how life works. Put in the work and the friendships come naturally. Also within API's post there were accusations of people not helping beginners. Type "DCM Novices log" into the search bar here and tell me people dont help beginners. Nonsense. The people who interact throughout the forum get the most input into their own logs. That's just the way of the world.

3. There are several logs (granted its quieter these days). I'll speak for myself - I simply dont have the time or energy to follow them all in detail. People are naturally drawn to logs for various reasons. For me its a few things - could I learn something from someone in or around or better than my level? could I help someone/contribute in a way that others might not? Is there something unique or different about the log that interests me? Is it someone I have had interactions with elsewhere in the forum or someone who has dipped into my own log? I wont apologise for not following every single log and contributing. I simply dont have the time.

4. I dont know that much about the history of this forum. From what I've seen it was a pretty interesting one with some interesting "debates" and fallouts over time. I think baggage from those days is still carried into a time where I dont really see it exist anymore. I dont agree with most of your points SuspectZero. I've always found you a very valuable contributor and I dont know the full history. With that comes an unbiased perspective and at this stage I've seen you overreact several times to nothing comments. You've painted an entire forum with the same brush based on your own internal bias.

As for this place being a toxic environment. I dont even know how to respond to that. Spend some time on Twitter and get some perspective about what toxic really looks like.

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

ultrapercy

peter kern wrote: »

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

not many High Nellys in The Tour De France or in the local Duathalons either. I'm really struggling to see your point. Also is 180 or even 300 realy that costly in comparrison to the cost of bikes, golf clubs etc etc.?

OOnegative

SuspectZero wrote: »

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

I do believe I was the one that made the comment you referenced above. I made it out of concern & nothing else. If something/where affected me the way you are describing this forum I wouldn’t go near it.

I don’t have the energy or want to get into a discussion with you about this at the minute as I’ve other stuff on my mind.

Swashbuckler

At this stage I've made the points I want to make and I'll respectfully step away from the discussion SuspectZero. Like I've always said I find your posts and contribution very valuable. I just dont have the energy to dissect everythng there and counter with my own opinions. I just fundamentally disagree with you on this one - not what you've been through but your assessment of the forum overall. Anyway, respect - would be happy to see you giving inputs in my own log if you're bored

Kurt_Godel.

zico10 wrote: »

It’s as easy tie the laces on them as it is any other pair of shoes I own.

Easy?!? Runners World magazine exists for this thread...:D

lulublue22

SuspectZero wrote: »

You dont know the history though and to say it's a thing of the past isnt true. It was still going on until I stopped posting regularly and it was from multiple posters, same stuff over and over again and usually over nothing but I disagreed in a debate or questioned them on their training or their friends training. If I get a bit teste with people who pm'd or taken real life personal attacks at me just because I disagreed with someones opinion that is off limits to that kind of thing. Between abusive pms, shots in my log that would dissapear, personal attacks in others logs and a mountain of indirect and passive aggressive comments. When I know who those people are and I can clearly see an agenda in their posts, I do get tetchy but you wont ever see me go even remotely close to the level they have with me.

I didnt brush the whole forum here with a single stroke but I've been around the block long enough and seen enough and been on the receiving end of enough to know there is cliques here with agendas. That has been my experience and it's my opinion, you are entitled to yours too and have your own perspective quite clearly but you cant tell me what nonsense I've put up with because you havent been behind my screen. To me, it's an undeniable fact because I had all the pm's to prove it.

There has always been a political undertone to this site as long as I've been here. I'm not saying this for the fun of it and yes, maybe that has made me more sensitive to it but I still see it to this day. As I said, you are entitled to your own perspective of the forum but how you can just wipe away stuff that's actually happened and been super toxic and cliquey that is undeniable just because it didnt happen to you is another thing. It's a bit like someone getting knifed behind your back but saying it never happened because you didnt see it.

It's not possible for you to have an unbiased perspective on my reactions to certain things when you dont have any context to those situations. You know after getting a raft of personal abuse on here and reaching out to stop it, I was asked "why dont you just leave if you hate it so much?" By another poster of the clique like the problem was me and not that i was getting a shed load of unwarranted abuse over absolutely nothing.

You might not see it but if you start disagreeing with people on training ideas or anything for that matter who are established posters, just watch how things change. They'll try undermine and to discredit you with everything but debate.

I remember the fusitive username ( but not the others ) - I found your posts relevant for me so thanks for that.

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

thats exactly why i ask him , this is more beginner or overthinking behaviour.
of course it could be as simple he needed new shoes and those shoe was the most comfortable he tried.
but the way he wrote it seemed he expected the shoe to be a bit faster since he spent so much money on it , and what is the point to run your time with a faster shoe ? regardless if you are a beginner or a pro .

Jesus, it was hardly overthinking. I wanted a new pair of shoes and I spent a bit more on them than I might ordinarily spend on a general training shoe. It was my very first time wearing the Adidas. It was just a short bog standard daily run, for which I'd hope to be able to hit my target paces in Doc Martins. I made a throwaway comment on my first impressions of the Adidas. That's pretty much all it was. I'm glad you're still checking up on my training, but I think it's a case of you over analysing to be honest.

PS. Undoubtedly some shoes are quicker than others, and with the abundance of brands all boasting the best carbon plate out there, I can understand any level of runner wondering what shoe might be fastest. I don't want to start another argument, but for that very reason, I didn't mention shoes in my OP.

peter kern

more seriously your first post was mainly spot on .

Kurt_Godel.

rovers_runner wrote: »

This forum has lost a load of extremely driven and talented runners who would have been a great read given the way the world has turned over the last 12 months.

When you have mods who have turned more to triathlon and listed off more excuses there too rather than offering anything are of no use really, but who decides on shaking things up?
A microcosm of why **** all ever gets done in this country.

Look at Irishrunner publication for instance, full of back slapping in comfort nobody will ever disrupt the cosy cartel.

To be fair an awful lot of whinging and hurling from the ditch gets done in this country and this microcosm.

Also a lot of volunteering, good vibes, help-thy-neighbour; although that's the sort of stuff that gets less attention. It's a shame it's taken for granted, really.

When have the mods stopped you (or anyone else) from offering anything of use to the forum? Thats a rhetorical question of which you (or anyone else) know the answer.

Zico, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore; I liked your opening post too.

Enduro

It's a pity we've wandered so far off from Zico's first post, as I thought it would lead to an interesting discussion on simplicity and complexity WRT running.

For what it's worth I entirely agree with the spirit of Zico's pont, that there is a massive tendency towards overcomplication. I think the majority of runners would have a better experience, and be more likely to stick with running as a sport/hobby/lifestyle if they followed the KISS principle more, and didn't wander into all the mutiple <potnetial> marginal gains traps that lurk (not in any way in the shadows). One of the ways I keep it simple for myself is not measuring both time and distance at the same time in any training runs. Hence I never turn what I percieved as a productive session into anything negative by analysising stats.

Having said that, there are definitely some people who thrive on complexity. It's a small minority though I think.

So anyway, since the discussion seems to have looped into one of the semi-regular AR Forum self-analysis sessions....

I've been around this forum since before it was this forum (Athletics forum -> Athletics Running Triathlon Forum -> Athletics Running Forum). And to be honest I think that right now it is in as good a place as it has ever been. It's interesting to be following a post from Kurt Godel, as he knows very well how acrimonius things have gotten in the past. Things are nowhere near as combatitive now. I actually can't recall the last time I have seen a post on this forum which stuck me as nasty or malicous. But there were times in the past when it was a regular occurance.

Similarly with the cross-over with real world identities. Sure people get to know each other in the real world. That's a good thing surely. But again, I don't see this as manifesting itself in any nastily cliuquey way. Similarly this would (in my opinion) have been a problem in the past. I occasionallly feel left out myself when I see the initials of people's real world names being referenced (but never when their actual full names are used), but there's no malice or bad cliqueyness there that I can see at the moment.

As for the mods.... the more invisible they are the better! so Kodos to them (and kudos to everyone who posts without requiring a mod to take action). It's definitely not their job to drive content around here.

I seem to be at odds with a lot of other posters here, in that I have no intrest in reading training logs (including my own, hence their non-existance), so never bother going into that sub-forum. Which potentially loops back in the original point of the thread, in that logging in and of itself is to my mind an over-complication.

BeginnerRunner

I may as well wade in at this stage... I'm only here a couple of months but I've been around various internet forums on different topics for the best part of 2 decades and there's nothing new being discussed now.

I've no knowledge of the history of the forum, nor do I care to know about it.

Any Irish / niche forum I've ever been a part of has insiders and outsiders.

The "insiders" tend to be around the longest, they usually know each other IRL or have real social connections, and for the most part - they're the most helpful of the lot. They essentially feed a forum with knowledge and interesting topics. It's not that hard to break into that group, but you can't do it if you think you're owed sometihng.

There'll often be inside jokes, certain conventions observed and unwritten rules / ways of doing things (a good example is of several posters pointing out here that regardless of how much shoes cost, they lace up the same).

The "outsiders", of which I very much count myself one here, are usually transient, but sometimes stick. They tend to be the net takers. They ask Qs, stimulate discussion, but don't really have anything to offer other than that.

Many join full of excitement to talk about this new thing they've found and want to connect with like minded people, only to drift away when something else comes along.

So why the hell should regulars spend time back slapping every newbie that arrives? More often than not, and I ask you all to genuinely consider this, they'll be gone after a few topics or a few weeks. What's the point in investing what (for most of us) is limited time and attention in that.

Especially when you've already got a great group of friends you already know and get on with.

You don't start a new job or go to a new school and immediately become one of the gang. Hopefully they'll be polite, friendly and welcoming, and open the door for you. But when you join something new I don't think it's fair to expect to have the same level of craic and rapport as people who've been in the trenches together for years.

A new poster SHOULD have to prove themselves. Both in stickability and knowledge if they're giving advice. There's been plenty of posts I've made where I know the information is rock solid, but because it comes from a cross discipline that's not running but is still relevant, and because I'm new, it hasn't got the same amount of thanks off regular posters.

And that's fine too. Because I've been in enough forums to know it's REAL easy to talk ****. And it's REAL easy to sound like you know what you're talking about without truly having a deep knowledge of the field. And bull**** advice being given by a faceless stranger on the internet should be approached with skepticism until that person proves their merit.

...and to a certain extent it's the job of the "insiders" to protect a forum by vetting that advice.

I think APIs post is very harsh and way off the mark. I've haven't had the same experience. But I also didn't come in here expecting to be liked and accepted (and I'm sure my log titled made sure of that). I came on here to log my training, ask some Qs and hopefully learn a bit.

I've had plenty of helpful advice since starting, but very little has come in my log. I often pose Qs on the off chance someone might see it, but I also cross post them to the random Q thread, or to a new topic because I know that someone chasing a sub 3 marathon probably isn't arsed reading the log of someone who's chasing a 25 minute 5k.

For me, a log is a place to log training so I can look back on it. If I have a Q, I'll ask it in the right place. I'm not sure why people are getting so hung up on that, or why I've spent so much time ranting about it now.

It just, and I've debated whether or not I should type this next bit, it just feels like people come on here thinking they're owed something.

In the 3 months or so I've been posting, I don't think I've seen a Q ignored. Or someone being told they're stupid for asking it. I've seen A LOT of helpful answers and good debate.

The knowledge base here is akin to that of religion - put all the major leaders in the room and they'd agree on most things (broad concepts) but put their disciples in a room and they'll fight tooth and nail on everything (details). It can be hard for newer posters to understand those nuances.

Anyway, that's just a collection of some poorly collated thoughts and the general "feel" I've got from the forum since November.

//

WRT the OP - I think the Bruce Lee 3 punches anecdote is most apt. When you first lunch to punch, a punch is just a punch. Then when you start to learn - a punch is no longer a punch. Then when you master it, a punch is just a punch again.

"In the beginning when you are learning something, and you’re asked to throw a punch, you do and there’s no technique or learning behind it, a punch is just a punch.

In the second stage of learning you start to break down all the components of a punch. You understand your stance, your fist, you practice, and you try and find the best punch. A punch is no longer just a punch.

Finally, in the third stage you return to “A punch is just a punch.” Except this time, it’s something you have broken down, practiced, understood, and integrated, such that you no longer have to think about it, it’s automatic yet skilled.

These ideas can be applied to learning anything—it’s a progression from novice to mastery."

PS - anyone seen pictures of Avril Lavigne recently? She looks THE EXACT SAME as she did when I used to spend an extra few minutes during my school lunch break in front of Kerrang hoping to see the complicated vid just so I could oogle her.

peter kern

sometimes mods can be useful to keep a thread on track, this one got derailed pretty nicely.

at the same time this thread totally validates zicos first post that people struggle to keep it simple and focus on whats important.
then suddently the focus is totally gone, and the result is little progress . more questions than answers.

there is no magic in running and keeping a thread on track yet it is so difficult.as at the end of the day emotions are an important part . and its a constant up and down.
you can set a record in home wins then suddently you lose a game and 5 games latter have set a club record for lost home games . same coach same players.
the OP can say how often he wants that it is so simple it just is not .
for some its more simple than for others but everybody struggles at times. and most never find the holy grail. and different people react to different ways differently...
to run faster is simple yet so difficult.
my 2 cents