Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

08-03-2021 12:00am #1

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

KaneToad · 08-03-2021 12:06am

Salaries, for full time positions, are very transparent. They are viewable here:

https://www.asti.ie/your-employment/pay/salary-scales/post-2011-common-basic-scale/

08-03-2021 12:10am

KaneToad wrote: »

Salaries, for full time positions, are very transparent. They are viewable here:

https://www.asti.ie/your-employment/pay/salary-scales/post-2011-common-basic-scale/

Thanks for that, but I was more thinking about job prospects. As far as I can see the pay isn't terrible as long as it's a job you enjoy, but that's assuming that you're on a full time salary, which according to some people on Boards is a very large assumption to make.

skippy1977 · 08-03-2021 12:23am

Bonnie Icy Tequila wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

I would imagine Maths and Irish are in huge demand. Our school can't fill posts in either subject. Where did you read that the job prospects are bad??

carr62 · 08-03-2021 12:34am

My daughter is in 5th year and like you is looking at becoming a maths and irish teacher. As far as she can tell, Mary I is the only college that runs a maths & irish teaching course. She really isnt excited by the idea of going to college in Thurles - but im sure its got plenty to attract students. What i dont know though, is how good that degree would be to you if you changed your mind about teaching,?

spurious · 08-03-2021 1:58am

Maths and Irish would be in demand and there should be full-time positions available..

That said, I wouldn't encourage anyone I cared about to go into teaching these days.

frankston · 08-03-2021 6:08am

Maths and Computer science would give you some good job options outside of teaching if it didn't workout

Mr_Muffin · 08-03-2021 6:33am

I didn't realise the salary was that good in teaching.

Wanderer78 · 08-03-2021 6:43am

Plough on op, you're still young and things have a tendency to change, try not worry to much about job prospects etc, as you can always change career path, and it's generally easier when you're younger, there's also teaching opportunities abroad, if things don't work out here, I've family currently doing so, best of luck with things

noplacehere · 08-03-2021 6:52am

Where in the country? East of the country those subjects are in high demand with unqualified teachers teaching full timetables. Elsewhere in the country is different.

I’m surprised everyone you know is telling you go teaching? I’d be advising thinking hard about it. New pensions, little prospect for promotion, this has to suit you. You need to want it.

Did you do any work experience in TY? Are you planning on going straight to college?

If you are planning on taking a year out to let Covid settle then if in the East of the country I’d try subbing in a school next year. You’ll know quickly if this is something you want for your career. Being in a classroom and teaching a class are very different

Hatch1989 · 08-03-2021 7:01am

Bonnie Icy Tequila wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

I am a secondary teacher English and Irish. Teaching 8 years

It took me 6 years to become permanent CID.
Permanent status needed for a mortgage etc

It’s difficult to get full hours immediately unlike a primary school job.

My first 4 years I had 2/3 of a timetable.
Which many 2/3 of a salary,
Yes you get subbing when a teacher is sick but all your holidays are still 2/3 of a salary.

Finally in year 7 I received a full timetable and full hours
Which meant full pay all year round.

Irish is a massive help in secondary as I’ve always been told Irish teachers are like “hens teeth”.

I love teaching , always wanted to be one.
I would just make you aware of the pay.
Those salary scales are true if you get full hours which most people don’t get for a few years.

If you cover a maternity you get paid for the hours you cover work and Easter Halloween etc holidays

Feel free to PM me ðŸ™‚

inbetweentea · 08-03-2021 4:43pm

I would just say here that location makes a difference. I feel Dublin is far easier on the jobs front (but obviously high cost of living has its own pitfalls.)

am_zarathustra · 08-03-2021 6:42pm

Bonnie Icy Tequila wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

Prospects of teaching at secondary depend on location and subjects. Irish teacher in the east, 22 hours straight out of college, they'll have you permenant as soon as possible.

I'd only discourage someone if they were talking about history, geography, english or art or a very niche subject like classics. There are lots of these teachers out there but then if you are very good and have extra curriculars even with these subjects you'd eventually get there. Again easier in the east than anywhere else in the country.

I love my job, brilliant way to spend the day. It is suits you it's fabulous, if it doesn't Maths and CS will be a good fallback.

The JC coding course is great too, really lovely to teach and the kids are really into it. It's a nice, open, engaging topic and there is a real sense of it being valuable in the modern world. Great training too so if you can try and have CS on the CV. Lots of schools will be interested in that!

French Toast · 09-03-2021 6:38pm

Irish is in massive demand, especially in the East. You'll very likely walk in to a 22 hour contract in Kildare/Wicklow/Dublin. Jobs do pop up in the West as well, just not entirely as plentiful.

If you choose Irish be aware that you could well end up teaching Irish all day, every day (depending on the school's situation) and none of your other subject.

Hoboo · 09-03-2021 6:41pm

Throw in Religion with your Irish and you become a unicorn.

Random sample · 09-03-2021 8:57pm

Agree with the points made above.

Be careful about what older teachers might tell you about the pay. If they started on the pre 2012 pay scale they might not be aware of the changes that were made to salary scales, or they might not realise how big a difference they make.

The 'hours' culture is also something that teachers who have been out a long time are not always aware of. And it is something principals use to allow them to have a ready supply of subbing. So you could be on 14/16 hours, and paying massive pension that you aren't going to see the benefit of for a long time.

Promotional prospects aren't great either. Middle management can be difficult to get into and senior management is the same.

If you are aware of all of those things, and you have researched other careers that have a similar requirement in relation to qualifications and requirements, and you are still interested in teaching, then I would say go for it.

Treppen · 09-03-2021 11:32pm

Random sample wrote: »

Agree with the points made above.

Be careful about what older teachers might tell you about the pay. If they started on the pre 2012 pay scale they might not be aware of the changes that were made to salary scales, or they might not realise how big a difference they make.

The 'hours' culture is also something that teachers who have been out a long time are not always aware of. And it is something principals use to allow them to have a ready supply of subbing. So you could be on 14/16 hours, and paying massive pension that you aren't going to see the benefit of for a long time.

Promotional prospects aren't great either. Middle management can be difficult to get into and senior management is the same.

If you are aware of all of those things, and you have researched other careers that have a similar requirement in relation to qualifications and requirements, and you are still interested in teaching, then I would say go for it.

This.

The new pension is DIRE. Older teachers don't realise just how bad it is.
Newly qualified teachers don't really care about pensions as it's miles down the line.
So at the end of 35 odd years of service you will barely get out of it what you put into it (and that's a fact). http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Trident-report.pdf

So if you are starting out... start saving. Probably the last thing on your mind (along with pensions) but you are going to want to buy a house at some stage too. Dublin is expensive, unless you're from there and living with the folks for a while not paying rent.

Maths and CS would be interesting and leave you open to exiting !!

You could work abroad for a few years and get a head start on savings... but be very careful with keeping the teaching council happy, maybe get fully qualified and registered before going and keep up your Teaching Council registration while abroad.

Maths & Irish ... you'll probably only ever wind up teaching one !

10-03-2021 11:16am

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Treppen wrote: »

This.
The new pension is DIRE.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

Random sample · 10-03-2021 12:02pm

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

If they find the hours to bring you to 18, they will find the hours to bring you to 22. It's cost saving that keeps people on 14/16 hours, not the lack of hours available.

inbetweentea · 10-03-2021 12:25pm

Random sample wrote: »

If they find the hours to bring you to 18, they will find the hours to bring you to 22. It's cost saving that keeps people on 14/16 hours, not the lack of hours available.

Interesting point -yeah. People never seem to realise the battle it can take to achieve full-time, let alone a CID. I think the employment conditions in the early years are the worst thing about teaching these days and maybe the attitude of a minority of parents. There are definitely positives as we all agree- but I do think it comes down to personality of the person considering becoming a teacher too.

In some ways, it can be a good idea to get some life experience before making the final decision about teaching- if you have the opportunity to try a few things and if financially you can do this before the PME. Some teachers join the profession a bit later. I think it's good to see the world a bit as well if the opportunity allows rather than going into the profession at the age of 21 of whatever. If you are doing a Maths or Arts degree- you can go into a variety of areas so I wouldn't narrow down decisions at your age and stage. This would be my advice to a LC student as you don't know what the world will offer yet.

Moody_mona · 10-03-2021 2:35pm

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

Just so you're not misled, this is not the case for temporary/substitute positions.

Adele K · 10-03-2021 2:42pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Prospects of teaching at secondary depend on location and subjects. Irish teacher in the east, 22 hours straight out of college, they'll have you permenant as soon as possible.

I'd only discourage someone if they were talking about history, geography, english or art or a very niche subject like classics. There are lots of these teachers out there but then if you are very good and have extra curriculars even with these subjects you'd eventually get there. Again easier in the east than anywhere else in the country.

I love my job, brilliant way to spend the day. It is suits you it's fabulous, if it doesn't Maths and CS will be a good fallback.

The JC coding course is great too, really lovely to teach and the kids are really into it. It's a nice, open, engaging topic and there is a real sense of it being valuable in the modern world. Great training too so if you can try and have CS on the CV. Lots of schools will be interested in that!

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

amacca · 10-03-2021 3:04pm

Adele K wrote: »

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

Supply and demand I presume. There are a lot or at least there used to be a lot of English/History teachers so it could be quite hard to get any sort of a meaningful job teaching those subjects for a long time, could lead to you bouncing around on low hours contracts/subbing for years (difficult to get mortgage etc etc).............of course you could be lucky too etc

I remember a long time ago (were talking 40 years or more now) being in a principals office and it was the same at that time for business subjects....there were so many business type degrees meaning there were a lot of people qualified to teach the subject. He had advertised a business studies job ad there was a stack of well over 100 CVs for it, if not more. He told me the stacks for other subjects were small to almost non-existent in some cases

r93kaey5p2izun · 10-03-2021 3:14pm

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

This is factually incorrect.

You are only paid for 22 hours if you achieve an 18 hour CID contract and agree to be timetabled for full hours.

You do not have to be given a CID after 2 years, there are many reasons why you would not be entitled to one after 2 years. It is far more complicated than that.

am_zarathustra · 10-03-2021 3:17pm

Adele K wrote: »

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

As the poster below says, it's just the lack of employment opportunities. My subjects are generally not the most sought after or the least, so you've a good shot at full time if you are a good worker and engaged in a school. It's tougher with those subjects, especially since the changes at JC, less hours for both so most schools would be oversupplied now.

If you can live in Dublin you'd be ok, hard enough anywhere else in the country.

Competition also means you'd need extra reason to be hired, you wouldn't as an Irish teacher

Treppen · 10-03-2021 8:34pm

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

Ignore this troll op, he's a long time lurker who isn't a teacher.

"And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID."

I think your showing your hand a bit early this month Salon.

Also... in the private sector how much control have you over your pension contributions and fund access, compared to the amount I throw into the government toilet bowl every 2 weeks?

Can you tell the op how much he'll get out of his pension compared to how much he'll put in?

I have more faith in the Roblox and GameStop Shares I just bought, than in a career average public sector pension lol!

10-03-2021 9:43pm

Treppen wrote: »

"And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID."

I think your showing your hand a bit early this month Salon.

Thanks! I'm only too happy to bring it to the OP's attention, seeing as none of the actually teachers brought it up. Don't worry, I don't charge !

tui wrote:

A teacher will qualify for a Contract of Indefinite Duration (CID) after a period of continuous employment in excess of two years – ie upon commencement of a third year of continuous employment, subject to certain conditions.

Treppen wrote: »

Also... in the private sector how much control have you over your pension contributions and fund access

When it comes to the €24000+ lost due to inability to claim State pension until 68, probably more, not much control at all.

Treppen wrote: »

Can you tell the op how much he'll get out of his pension compared to how much he'll put in?

Swings and roundabouts. New Pension is lowered (along with lower contributions), but the entitlement age to the OAP pension remains the same for new entrants to the public service.

r93kaey5p2izun · 10-03-2021 9:54pm

Salonfire's information on CID, and other aspects of teaching terms and conditions, is extremely misleading, not even half the story. OP I strongly advise you ignore his musings on teaching and teachers if you want accurate information.

Leftwaffe · 10-03-2021 9:56pm

Whatever you do pick the right subject. Have only one decent subject myself and whilst it hasn’t stopped me getting work I had to sub for a year to get in the door first and prove myself. With maths and Irish you’d walk into a job I reckon.

Treppen · 11-03-2021 1:53am

salonfire wrote: »

Thanks! I'm only too happy to bring it to the OP's attention, seeing as none of the actually teachers brought it up. Don't worry, I don't charge !

So it only took yourself and every other teacher you know two years out of the PME to get an automatic CID eh?

salonfire wrote: »

When it comes to the €24000+ lost due to inability to claim State pension until 68, probably more, not much control at all.

What pension scheme are you in? I think you may need to seek financial advice if you have "not much control" over your private sector pension.

salonfire wrote: »

Swings and roundabouts. New Pension is lowered (along with lower contributions), but the entitlement age to the OAP pension remains the same for new entrants to the public service.

Great thanks, so if you're getting this OP, <snip> in terms of a pension... It's the OAP that'll do you.

11-03-2021 2:26am

Treppen wrote: »

Great thanks, so if you're getting this OP, the numpty here is saying that in terms of a pension... It's the OAP that'll do you.

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.

spurious · 11-03-2021 9:43am

I think this has been asked and answered. There are a number of similar threads here.
OP, I suggest you speak with some of the younger teachers in your school. It may surprise you how many of them do not have full hours.

mod:
Suggest members link to proof if they feel another poster is being disingenuous.
Name calling falls below the standard expected here.

Treppen · 11-03-2021 9:33pm

salonfire wrote: »

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.

AS i stated, you have more control on how you manage your private sector pension. Plus if you have a good professional qualification your company can contribute to your pension.

Do you know of any schools who contribute to teacher's public sector pensions?
Can I write to the Department of Education and ask them to manage my own contributions myself and sign out of the pension scheme?

Telling the OP that they have access to the OAP is masking the overall picture.
The new pension scheme for new entrants is rubbish.

Given the OP has an aptitude for maths they could see themselves starting in an MNC in about 5-6 years (if they stuck around for MAsters/PhD after degree) Starting on >35k, Company Pension Contribution, Share Scheme, VHI Paid for + Yearly bonuses . Then if they stuck with it could easily move into the >60k salary after 10 years.

So yet again Salonfire, you don't go into teaching to make money, but maybe that's your experience of being a teacher. It can be a rewarding job in other ways and no way I would cope in an office environment

gaiscioch · 11-03-2021 10:55pm

If people are interested in a job, will they please, please apply for it? OK, if it's like that Temple Carrig school in Greystones some years ago where they had a 10- or 15-page application form, ignore it, but generally just apply.

Back in the economic turmoil of 2009 I remember speaking with the deputy principal in my Dublin school and she said she had over 500 applications for a subject which was ridiculously oversubscribed - and was one of the two subjects (English and History) which were by far the most popular combination in the Dip when I did it.

In stark contrast, I am aware of three people applying for a very similar post in a very similar Dublin academic school in the past year. I was, and remain, genuinely shocked at how few people applied. I can only surmise, if not assume, that potential candidates thought the job was in the bag for some internal candidate and they didn't apply. The school ended up hiring somebody who was not up to the job, to put it mildly.

Just apply, because you'd be surprised how desperate even schools with a supposedly excellent reputation can be.

byhookorbycrook · 13-03-2021 12:11am

salonfire wrote: »

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

Treppen · 13-03-2021 1:29am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

Also the money you put in to the public sector pension scheme you NEVER see it back, all your doing is buying access to a pension scheme.

Plus the extra ASC levy on having a pension every pay check. Public sector only.

Plus the SP&Ch which I kind of agree with but no private sector employee pays that.

am_zarathustra · 13-03-2021 5:04pm

Treppen wrote: »

Also the money you put in to the public sector pension scheme you NEVER see it back, all your doing is buying access to a pension scheme.

Plus the extra ASC levy on having a pension every pay check. Public sector only.

Plus the SP&Ch which I kind of agree with but no private sector employee pays that.

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

For years there was also the 10% PRD (old asc) on correcting work, but it didnt count towards your pension, literally cognitive dissonance!

Treppen · 14-03-2021 5:37pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

For years there was also the 10% PRD (old asc) on correcting work, but it didnt count towards your pension, literally cognitive dissonance!

Actually.for SP&CH.. 50,000+ teachers in Ireland all contributing at least €40 per month (I pay €75). Is about >€20,000,000 per year

Whats the payout ?

Don't get me wrong though, I support the scheme to an extent but would like to know it's going where it should.... But I presume it's all into the general tax pot like everything else.

Actually my spouse's private sector company pay out if you expire in service... And she doesn't contribute anything!

14-03-2021 10:03pm

Treppen wrote: »

So yet again Salonfire, you don't go into teaching to make money, but maybe that's your experience of being a teacher. It can be a rewarding job in other ways and no way I would cope in an office environment

That's simply not true. Stop trying to peddle this myth especially to impressionable minds. For those teachers who are based in rural Ireland in regional villages and towns, they should be able to live very comfortably. They don't have their salaries adjusted downwards to reflect a much lower cost of living compared to Dublin.

There was a recent thread I think it was this forum where teachers where gleefully pronouncing the much lower cost of childcare to give one example.

Your point of better conditions in MNC is true, but limited to the Dublin area. Maybe Cork and Galway to a smaller extent. I guess for people like the OP also need to consider geographically where they would like to settle down in Ireland. MNCs in rural Ireland if they exist at all are of lower quality and offer far lower salaries.

If in the Dublin area, yes they would be at a disadvantage in teaching compared to large MNC. I agree with your point made on this.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000. And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

byhookorbycrook · 14-03-2021 10:06pm

salonfire wrote: »

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000. And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

People who have graduated from a four year course can’t be compared to someone starting in the local chipper.

byhookorbycrook · 14-03-2021 10:09pm

“Our survey shows that the best paid graduate jobs in 2019 were in law, with a mean starting salary of €40000, followed by retail and sales at €33,600. The highest percentage of graduate jobs created in 2019 are in the IT and Technology sector, which comprised 45% of the jobs, with a mean starting salary of €31,701.”
https://gradireland.com/careers-advice/working-in-ireland-and-northern-ireland/salaries-and-benefits-for-new-graduates

Treppen · 15-03-2021 11:29am

salonfire wrote: »

That's simply not true. Stop trying to peddle this myth especially to impressionable minds.

Impressionable minds!

salonfire wrote: »

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

MNCs in rural Ireland if they exist at all are of lower quality and offer far lower salaries.

Your point of better conditions in MNC is true, but limited to the Dublin area. Maybe Cork and Galway to a smaller extent.

.

Limited to the Dublin area eh!!

Sligo - Abbotts, Abbvie
Donegal - Abbott
Limerick - J&J, Stryker, Regeneron, Analog Devices
Waterford - Eirgen
Tipperary - MSD , JED Pharma, Boston Scientific
Wicklow - Takeda
Athlone -Jazz Pharma , Medtronic , Abbott , Aerie
Carlow - MSD
Dundalk - Almac

That's just off the top of my head.

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000.

Entry level Pharmaceutical & Biopharmaceutical salary guide

Quality Control and Quality Assurance – €30,000- 35,000
Microbiologist – €30,000- 35,000
Process Chemists – €30,000-38,000
Biochemist/Biotechnologist – €35,000- 40,000
Analytical Chemist – €35,000-40,000
R&D Scientist – €40,000-45,000
Formulation Scientist – €40,000-60,000

That's just on the basic degree as a minimum requirement..... Throw a masters on that and you could negotiate more (unlike teaching).

salonfire wrote: »

For those teachers who are based in rural Ireland in regional villages and towns, they should be able to live very comfortably.

So would anyone then going by a professional's salary, like Accountant, Solicitor, Engineer, Technician... The OP is choosing between teaching or other careers. Are you saying they'd be better off than other professions in rural Ireland.

salonfire wrote: »

They don't have their salaries adjusted downwards to reflect a much lower cost of living compared to Dublin.

Or Teachers don't have their Salaries adjusted upwards to reflect the much higher cost of living in Dublin.
Anyway, where is the OP from?

salonfire wrote: »

There was a recent thread I think it was this forum where teachers where gleefully pronouncing the much lower cost of childcare to give one example..

How did they "gleefully" pronounce it, with smiley faces or gold dollar sign emojis ?
I think that's in your own head.

salonfire wrote: »

And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

So what? they still get a crap pension.
Getting "much less due to not having full-time hours" is a bad thing btw, not a position you would advise anyone to enter into, least of all - "Impressionable minds" .

salonfire wrote: »

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

But it's enforced insurance. It's like me paying for your VHI. And even at that it's very bad value! I'm paying €75 per month insurance for someone else. That other teacher would be better off taking out a life insurance policy and paying €50 per month of their own money, they'd be better off not paying the extra €75 and I'd be better off not paying €75.

e.g. Zurich would charge you €30 per month to insure your life for 35 years and pay out €500k.

I'm curious as to why you never promote your own profession, or state your salary or pension?
At least you could give us some alternative views and insight outside the realm of your obviously 'well informed' educational experience.

dory · 16-03-2021 8:31am

carr62 wrote: »

My daughter is in 5th year and like you is looking at becoming a maths and irish teacher. As far as she can tell, Mary I is the only college that runs a maths & irish teaching course. She really isnt excited by the idea of going to college in Thurles - but im sure its got plenty to attract students. What i dont know though, is how good that degree would be to you if you changed your mind about teaching,?

Very useful. She could easily do a one year conversion type course. Start out in teaching but then do an MBA or a HR course and go into business. I did a bit of a PE course years and years ago. I'm in touch with a few people from it, one's a guard now, one works in business development, one is a communictions manager for an MEP. All eventually had enough of teaching and found it very easy to change direction. Employers like that you were able to handle teenagers for a while!

03-06-2021 9:50pm

Treppen wrote: »

Impressionable minds!
Anyway, where is the OP from?

I was just re-reading and just spotted this now. I didn't mean to rudely ignore you. To answer the question I'm in a rural town in the southwest, not that it makes any difference in this redundant thread lol

Thanks for all the help anyway

Jeremy Sproket · 03-06-2021 10:07pm

Treppen wrote: »

AS i stated, you have more control on how you manage your private sector pension. Plus if you have a good professional qualification your company can contribute to your pension.

Do you know of any schools who contribute to teacher's public sector pensions?
Can I write to the Department of Education and ask them to manage my own contributions myself and sign out of the pension scheme?

But your pension is guaranteed! I have to carefully manage mine and invest the funds. You are literally GUARANTEED half your salary PLUS the contributory state pension on top of that.

Jeremy Sproket · 03-06-2021 10:14pm

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2021 10:17pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

But your pension is guaranteed! I have to carefully manage mine and invest the funds. You are literally GUARANTEED half your salary PLUS the contributory state pension on top of that.

Except that is incorrect.

You are guaranteed half your salary if you work the full 40 years. Most teachers don't.

And the pension which is half your salary already contains the state pension.

So quick example:

A teacher finishing on 60k and for convenience they complete the full 40 years so are entitled to a pension of 30k.

13k of that is the state pension which they have been contributing to through their PRSI contributions and the other 17k is what they have been contributing to through their pension payments which they have been making since the age of 22 or thereabouts.

Jeremy Sproket · 03-06-2021 10:20pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Except that is incorrect.

You are guaranteed half your salary if you work the full 40 years. Most teachers don't.

And the pension which is half your salary already contains the state pension.

So quick example:

A teacher finishing on 60k and for convenience they complete the full 40 years so are entitled to a pension of 30k.

13k of that is the state pension which they have been contributing to through their PRSI contributions and the other 17k is what they have been contributing to through their pension payments which they have been making since the age of 22 or thereabouts.

You taught me something today !! :P

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2021 10:21pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

Please if you are going to come into the teaching forum to slag off teachers at least inform yourself of our actual pay and conditions rather than making them up.

It doesn't how many years over 40 you work, the max pension is 40/80ths of final salary. And it's not final salary for anyone that started after 2012, it's based on career average earnings. I've worked in the same school for 20 years and I've only seen two teachers in that time retire having completed the full 40 years. Most others retired earlier or didn't have the years done at retirement because they started teaching later, or took years out to mind children etc.

An assistant principal attracts an extra allowance, some of their duties may include being a year head. Form teachers are generally not posts in Irish schools and do not attract an allowance.

rainbowtrout · 03-06-2021 10:25pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

You taught me something today !! :P

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

Teachers who started teaching from 2004 onwards have to wait until 65 at the earliest to get their pension regardless of what age they retire. So they won't be going until 65 unless they have another source of income.

Teachers who joined before 2004 can get their pension before 65 if they meet eligibility requirements in terms of years served, age they are retiring at etc.

Note: if you think it's all cushy in the public sector, a colleague of mine retired last October, she is still waiting for her pension to be paid out to her - she has had no income for the last 8 months as a result.

Also - yes a principal will retire on a higher pension, but there is only one principal in every school. And it's not much different from expecting that the managing director of a private company would retire on a larger pension than the admin staff or people working on the factory floor. There are opportunities for promotion in all professions, but the higher up you go the less jobs there are. Most teachers will not become principals.

Geuze · 03-06-2021 10:34pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

First of all, as has been stated already, the 50% of final salary includes the SPC = State Pension Contributory.

Second, it would be extremely unusual to start a full-time teaching job at age 21.

This forum is full of people getting hours here and there, maternity cover, part-time contracts, etc.

Now, I accept that in some subjects that are in demand, students can get FT jobs after four years in college, say age 22 (like Home Ec???).

Third, as stated already max pension is 40/80ths, even if you work 42 or 43 years.

Note that there are various pension schemes.

Pre April 1995
Pre/post 2004
The Single PS Pensions scheme, since 2013

Each has different conditions, the new scheme is less generous, as it is a Career Average Earnings scheme, it is not based on final salary.

Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

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