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Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

[Deleted User]

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

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KaneToad

Salaries, for full time positions, are very transparent. They are viewable here:

https://www.asti.ie/your-employment/pay/salary-scales/post-2011-common-basic-scale/

[Deleted User]

KaneToad wrote: »

Salaries, for full time positions, are very transparent. They are viewable here:

https://www.asti.ie/your-employment/pay/salary-scales/post-2011-common-basic-scale/

Thanks for that, but I was more thinking about job prospects. As far as I can see the pay isn't terrible as long as it's a job you enjoy, but that's assuming that you're on a full time salary, which according to some people on Boards is a very large assumption to make.

skippy1977

ddoolan03 wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

I would imagine Maths and Irish are in huge demand. Our school can't fill posts in either subject. Where did you read that the job prospects are bad??

carr62

My daughter is in 5th year and like you is looking at becoming a maths and irish teacher. As far as she can tell, Mary I is the only college that runs a maths & irish teaching course. She really isnt excited by the idea of going to college in Thurles - but im sure its got plenty to attract students. What i dont know though, is how good that degree would be to you if you changed your mind about teaching,?

spurious

Maths and Irish would be in demand and there should be full-time positions available..

That said, I wouldn't encourage anyone I cared about to go into teaching these days.

frankston

Maths and Computer science would give you some good job options outside of teaching if it didn't workout

Mr_Muffin

I didn't realise the salary was that good in teaching.

Wanderer78

Plough on op, you're still young and things have a tendency to change, try not worry to much about job prospects etc, as you can always change career path, and it's generally easier when you're younger, there's also teaching opportunities abroad, if things don't work out here, I've family currently doing so, best of luck with things

noplacehere

Where in the country? East of the country those subjects are in high demand with unqualified teachers teaching full timetables. Elsewhere in the country is different.

I’m surprised everyone you know is telling you go teaching? I’d be advising thinking hard about it. New pensions, little prospect for promotion, this has to suit you. You need to want it.

Did you do any work experience in TY? Are you planning on going straight to college?

If you are planning on taking a year out to let Covid settle then if in the East of the country I’d try subbing in a school next year. You’ll know quickly if this is something you want for your career. Being in a classroom and teaching a class are very different

Hatch1989

ddoolan03 wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

I am a secondary teacher English and Irish. Teaching 8 years

It took me 6 years to become permanent CID.
Permanent status needed for a mortgage etc

It’s difficult to get full hours immediately unlike a primary school job.

My first 4 years I had 2/3 of a timetable.
Which many 2/3 of a salary,
Yes you get subbing when a teacher is sick but all your holidays are still 2/3 of a salary.

Finally in year 7 I received a full timetable and full hours
Which meant full pay all year round.

Irish is a massive help in secondary as I’ve always been told Irish teachers are like “hens teeth”.

I love teaching , always wanted to be one.
I would just make you aware of the pay.
Those salary scales are true if you get full hours which most people don’t get for a few years.

If you cover a maternity you get paid for the hours you cover work and Easter Halloween etc holidays

Feel free to PM me ðŸ™‚

inbetweentea

I would just say here that location makes a difference. I feel Dublin is far easier on the jobs front (but obviously high cost of living has its own pitfalls.)

am_zarathustra

ddoolan03 wrote: »

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

Prospects of teaching at secondary depend on location and subjects. Irish teacher in the east, 22 hours straight out of college, they'll have you permenant as soon as possible.

I'd only discourage someone if they were talking about history, geography, english or art or a very niche subject like classics. There are lots of these teachers out there but then if you are very good and have extra curriculars even with these subjects you'd eventually get there. Again easier in the east than anywhere else in the country.

I love my job, brilliant way to spend the day. It is suits you it's fabulous, if it doesn't Maths and CS will be a good fallback.

The JC coding course is great too, really lovely to teach and the kids are really into it. It's a nice, open, engaging topic and there is a real sense of it being valuable in the modern world. Great training too so if you can try and have CS on the CV. Lots of schools will be interested in that!

French Toast

Irish is in massive demand, especially in the East. You'll very likely walk in to a 22 hour contract in Kildare/Wicklow/Dublin. Jobs do pop up in the West as well, just not entirely as plentiful.

If you choose Irish be aware that you could well end up teaching Irish all day, every day (depending on the school's situation) and none of your other subject.

Hoboo

Throw in Religion with your Irish and you become a unicorn.

Random sample

Agree with the points made above.

Be careful about what older teachers might tell you about the pay. If they started on the pre 2012 pay scale they might not be aware of the changes that were made to salary scales, or they might not realise how big a difference they make.

The 'hours' culture is also something that teachers who have been out a long time are not always aware of. And it is something principals use to allow them to have a ready supply of subbing. So you could be on 14/16 hours, and paying massive pension that you aren't going to see the benefit of for a long time.

Promotional prospects aren't great either. Middle management can be difficult to get into and senior management is the same.

If you are aware of all of those things, and you have researched other careers that have a similar requirement in relation to qualifications and requirements, and you are still interested in teaching, then I would say go for it.

Treppen

Random sample wrote: »

Agree with the points made above.

Be careful about what older teachers might tell you about the pay. If they started on the pre 2012 pay scale they might not be aware of the changes that were made to salary scales, or they might not realise how big a difference they make.

The 'hours' culture is also something that teachers who have been out a long time are not always aware of. And it is something principals use to allow them to have a ready supply of subbing. So you could be on 14/16 hours, and paying massive pension that you aren't going to see the benefit of for a long time.

Promotional prospects aren't great either. Middle management can be difficult to get into and senior management is the same.

If you are aware of all of those things, and you have researched other careers that have a similar requirement in relation to qualifications and requirements, and you are still interested in teaching, then I would say go for it.

This.

The new pension is DIRE. Older teachers don't realise just how bad it is.
Newly qualified teachers don't really care about pensions as it's miles down the line.
So at the end of 35 odd years of service you will barely get out of it what you put into it (and that's a fact). http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Trident-report.pdf

So if you are starting out... start saving. Probably the last thing on your mind (along with pensions) but you are going to want to buy a house at some stage too. Dublin is expensive, unless you're from there and living with the folks for a while not paying rent.

Maths and CS would be interesting and leave you open to exiting !!

You could work abroad for a few years and get a head start on savings... but be very careful with keeping the teaching council happy, maybe get fully qualified and registered before going and keep up your Teaching Council registration while abroad.

Maths & Irish ... you'll probably only ever wind up teaching one !

[Deleted User]

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Treppen wrote: »

This.
The new pension is DIRE.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

Random sample

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

If they find the hours to bring you to 18, they will find the hours to bring you to 22. It's cost saving that keeps people on 14/16 hours, not the lack of hours available.

inbetweentea

Random sample wrote: »

If they find the hours to bring you to 18, they will find the hours to bring you to 22. It's cost saving that keeps people on 14/16 hours, not the lack of hours available.

Interesting point -yeah. People never seem to realise the battle it can take to achieve full-time, let alone a CID. I think the employment conditions in the early years are the worst thing about teaching these days and maybe the attitude of a minority of parents. There are definitely positives as we all agree- but I do think it comes down to personality of the person considering becoming a teacher too.

In some ways, it can be a good idea to get some life experience before making the final decision about teaching- if you have the opportunity to try a few things and if financially you can do this before the PME. Some teachers join the profession a bit later. I think it's good to see the world a bit as well if the opportunity allows rather than going into the profession at the age of 21 of whatever. If you are doing a Maths or Arts degree- you can go into a variety of areas so I wouldn't narrow down decisions at your age and stage. This would be my advice to a LC student as you don't know what the world will offer yet.

Moody_mona

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

Just so you're not misled, this is not the case for temporary/substitute positions.

Adele K

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Prospects of teaching at secondary depend on location and subjects. Irish teacher in the east, 22 hours straight out of college, they'll have you permenant as soon as possible.

I'd only discourage someone if they were talking about history, geography, english or art or a very niche subject like classics. There are lots of these teachers out there but then if you are very good and have extra curriculars even with these subjects you'd eventually get there. Again easier in the east than anywhere else in the country.

I love my job, brilliant way to spend the day. It is suits you it's fabulous, if it doesn't Maths and CS will be a good fallback.

The JC coding course is great too, really lovely to teach and the kids are really into it. It's a nice, open, engaging topic and there is a real sense of it being valuable in the modern world. Great training too so if you can try and have CS on the CV. Lots of schools will be interested in that!

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

amacca

Adele K wrote: »

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

Supply and demand I presume. There are a lot or at least there used to be a lot of English/History teachers so it could be quite hard to get any sort of a meaningful job teaching those subjects for a long time, could lead to you bouncing around on low hours contracts/subbing for years (difficult to get mortgage etc etc).............of course you could be lucky too etc

I remember a long time ago (were talking 40 years or more now) being in a principals office and it was the same at that time for business subjects....there were so many business type degrees meaning there were a lot of people qualified to teach the subject. He had advertised a business studies job ad there was a stack of well over 100 CVs for it, if not more. He told me the stacks for other subjects were small to almost non-existent in some cases

r93kaey5p2izun

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

This is factually incorrect.

You are only paid for 22 hours if you achieve an 18 hour CID contract and agree to be timetabled for full hours.

You do not have to be given a CID after 2 years, there are many reasons why you would not be entitled to one after 2 years. It is far more complicated than that.

am_zarathustra

Adele K wrote: »

Hi there, just curious about why you'd discourage someone from teaching English and history?

As the poster below says, it's just the lack of employment opportunities. My subjects are generally not the most sought after or the least, so you've a good shot at full time if you are a good worker and engaged in a school. It's tougher with those subjects, especially since the changes at JC, less hours for both so most schools would be oversupplied now.

If you can live in Dublin you'd be ok, hard enough anywhere else in the country.

Competition also means you'd need extra reason to be hired, you wouldn't as an Irish teacher

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

Regarding the hours, even if you don't get full hours you'll still paid as full time with 18 hours. So 18 hours is the target to reach, not 22.

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

Not much better in the private sector where the retirement age is increased to 68 and rising. The public sector do not have this increase in retirement age.

Ignore this troll op, he's a long time lurker who isn't a teacher.

"And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID."

I think your showing your hand a bit early this month Salon.

Also... in the private sector how much control have you over your pension contributions and fund access, compared to the amount I throw into the government toilet bowl every 2 weeks?

Can you tell the op how much he'll get out of his pension compared to how much he'll put in?

I have more faith in the Roblox and GameStop Shares I just bought, than in a career average public sector pension lol!

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

"And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID."

I think your showing your hand a bit early this month Salon.

Thanks! I'm only too happy to bring it to the OP's attention, seeing as none of the actually teachers brought it up. Don't worry, I don't charge !

tui wrote:

A teacher will qualify for a Contract of Indefinite Duration (CID) after a period of continuous employment in excess of two years – ie upon commencement of a third year of continuous employment, subject to certain conditions.

Treppen wrote: »

Also... in the private sector how much control have you over your pension contributions and fund access

When it comes to the €24000+ lost due to inability to claim State pension until 68, probably more, not much control at all.

Treppen wrote: »

Can you tell the op how much he'll get out of his pension compared to how much he'll put in?

Swings and roundabouts. New Pension is lowered (along with lower contributions), but the entitlement age to the OAP pension remains the same for new entrants to the public service.

r93kaey5p2izun

Salonfire's information on CID, and other aspects of teaching terms and conditions, is extremely misleading, not even half the story. OP I strongly advise you ignore his musings on teaching and teachers if you want accurate information.

Leftwaffe

Whatever you do pick the right subject. Have only one decent subject myself and whilst it hasn’t stopped me getting work I had to sub for a year to get in the door first and prove myself. With maths and Irish you’d walk into a job I reckon.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

Thanks! I'm only too happy to bring it to the OP's attention, seeing as none of the actually teachers brought it up. Don't worry, I don't charge !

So it only took yourself and every other teacher you know two years out of the PME to get an automatic CID eh?

salonfire wrote: »

When it comes to the €24000+ lost due to inability to claim State pension until 68, probably more, not much control at all.

What pension scheme are you in? I think you may need to seek financial advice if you have "not much control" over your private sector pension.

salonfire wrote: »

Swings and roundabouts. New Pension is lowered (along with lower contributions), but the entitlement age to the OAP pension remains the same for new entrants to the public service.

Great thanks, so if you're getting this OP, <snip> in terms of a pension... It's the OAP that'll do you.

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

Great thanks, so if you're getting this OP, the numpty here is saying that in terms of a pension... It's the OAP that'll do you.

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.