WandaVision - Disney+ (Spoilers)

Penn · 07-03-2021 09:21PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Also agree with sentiment above, remove the Marvel logo, the novel and creative start with sitcom setup, and some fan service and this was really a load of tripe.

I genuinely think that without the Marvel aspect of it, I would have seriously thought during the first episode that whoever made this must have been mad in the head to make an I Love Lucy / Bewitched type of show in this day and age.

Until the dinner choking scene. The flip in style, the horrific undertones, then the switch back. Capped off at the end with the cut to the reveal of someone in present day watching it. I definitely would have been intrigued enough to keep watching. Same with episode 2 and the red helicopter, radio voice and then the beekeeper scene. The veil slowly being lifted back, progressing through different tv eras (showing that it would progress to meet present day). Then the third episode, the scene between Wanda and Monica where Wanda took on an incredibly menacing tone, culminating in the switch to the outside world.

If it wasn't a Marvel show/characters etc, I still would have been interested in the show. I thought it was a very intriguing idea regardless. And I get that people thought the first few episodes were far too slow, but I really think if they'd cut it down to an episode or two it would have been pointless to do it in the first place, and there wouldn't have been enough time for those unsettling moments to have any effect. You need to give enough time to the normal for the abnormal to really stand out.

Kermit.de.frog · 07-03-2021 09:31PM

Penn wrote: »

I genuinely think that without the Marvel aspect of it, I would have seriously thought during the first episode that whoever made this must have been mad in the head to make an I Love Lucy / Bewitched type of show in this day and age.

Until the dinner choking scene. The flip in style, the horrific undertones, then the switch back. Capped off at the end with the cut to the reveal of someone in present day watching it. I definitely would have been intrigued enough to keep watching. Same with episode 2 and the red helicopter, radio voice and then the beekeeper scene. The veil slowly being lifted back, progressing through different tv eras (showing that it would progress to meet present day). Then the third episode, the scene between Wanda and Monica where Wanda took on an incredibly menacing tone, culminating in the switch to the outside world.

If it wasn't a Marvel show/characters etc, I still would have been interested in the show. I thought it was a very intriguing idea regardless. And I get that people thought the first few episodes were far too slow, but I really think if they'd cut it down to an episode or two it would have been pointless to do it in the first place, and there wouldn't have been enough time for those unsettling moments to have any effect. You need to give enough time to the normal for the abnormal to really stand out.

First few episodes were slower but they were novel, something different which I appreciated.

Another thing - am I the only who didn't care at all what was happening outside the Hex?

All those scenes dragged it back for me because there was no substance to it and a pretty poor excuse for a "villain" who again I just never cared about.

I thought everything outside Wanda's world was mostly pointless and took away from what could have been a better story - all be it with pretty horrific undertones.

Another big problem I have with this series is the lack of consequences.

Vision died - he's back, any emotional investment in the end of Infinity War gone.

The kids - how sad but again no consequences because low and behold...

But the biggest issue for me is that Wanda literally takes a whole town hostage, puts them in her nightmare, controls everything they do and there is zero consequences for her

In fact, far from there being consequences, Monica tells her "they'll never know what you did for them"???????? and she's just allowed fly off like nothing happened.

Made no sense at all.

pixelburp · 07-03-2021 09:36PM

Re. The Marvel badge, what it probably bought this show was the bandwidth to horse about with its sitcom premise longer than a new IP. A studio would have forced a narrative twist sooner and more definitively. Another big aspect perhaps forgotten, is this show made no attempt to catch us up on who Wanda and Vision actually WERE. You'd have needed an episode just to catch a blind audience up on their respective backstories (of which, Visions is kinda horseshít from Ultron). Instead we jumped straight in. That couldn't have happened without the confidence / hubris of Marvel backing this.

murpho999 · 07-03-2021 09:47PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRkLLkpL5oY

Enjoyed this.

SimonTemplar · 07-03-2021 10:03PM

murpho999 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRkLLkpL5oY

Enjoyed this.

His videos are extremely witty and well written.

murpho999 · 07-03-2021 10:07PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

Watched episode 4 and 5 and a slight improvement if only because there is some semblance of a plot. I feel like a lot of the information delivered in episode 4 could have been weaved into episode 2 and Episode 3 and the show would have been better for it.

I initially didnt even recognise who Monica was, which I guess is telling of just how forgettable and poor Captain Marvel was as a movie.

I am over half way in and it really feels like they stretched 2 or 3 episodes of content into 5. When you compare this to Daredevil as a series, bar a few episodes of DD season 2, the gap in quality is almost unquantifiable.

I was particularly annoyed about the scene after the snap, because we saw so little of it! Yet again Marvel afraid to deal with what should be the real fallout of the snap, and the complicated ramifications of it. Too quickly brushed aside in Far from Home and now this.

I dont know am I in the minority and I'm delighted if people liked it, but just falling very flat for me thus far. Hopefully the final 4 episodes can improve.

But can you not just watch something and let them set the scene and wonder where it's going without having to know straight away?

I don't get why so many people have impatience and don't want scene setting, arc and/or character development.

I personally enjoyed the first few episodes as I had no clue what was going on but knew there was something happening and I enjoyed trying to work out and then being giving bits of information as the serious developed. I just don't get the rush.

Only downer for me was that the final episode was somewhat disappointing but overall it was a good show.

I liked it's originality and risks it took to be different.

Coybig_ · 07-03-2021 10:31PM

murpho999 wrote: »

But can you not just watch something and let them set the scene and wonder where it's going without having to know straight away?

I don't get why so many people have impatience and don't want scene setting, arc and/or character development.

I personally enjoyed the first few episodes as I had no clue what was going on but knew there was something happening and I enjoyed trying to work out and then being giving bits of information as the serious developed. I just don't get the rush.

Only downer for me was that the final episode was somewhat disappointing but overall it was a good show.

I liked it's originality and risks it took to be different.

Right, but the sitcom parts have absolutely no impact on the plot, the characters in them are mind controlled or fakes.

We persist with this setup with virtually no payoff for a number of episodes.

Before the show even started people pretty much sussed that it was Wanda projecting this reality in some way because Vision was dead. But we had to go through episodes of irrelevant sitcom to see these 30 second glitches in each episode before learning, yes, it is what you always thought it was!

There was literally no character development aside from learning that Wanda was grieving and delusional, because she was the only character who had any f*cking agency and wasn't either mind controlled or made up!

And the rest of the episodes only served to confirm that yes, Wanda was grieving and delusional. Spectacular character development there.

As I said before, Mr.Robot (a show which is leagues better than this show) took this exact same concept and did it far more skillfully and with greater nuance. They used it for one episode because doing it for 3 is absolutely stretching the concept beyond it's initial charm.

I have patience when a show is well written. The Sopranos is a relatively slow paced show which is very enjoyable - a show isn't automatically good because it is slower paced. A show isn't automatically deep because it doesn't immediately reveal it's wafer thin plot. Rectify is even slower paced again, but elite television because it is competently written. Not liking Wandavision does not equal not liking 'slower paced shows'. Absurd argument.

Also, it didn't take any risks - it was able to use the Marvel name and the pre-existing characters and goodwill built up from a successful universe to justify it's meandering opening few episodes, before descending into the formulaic shlock that fans say it is supposedly attempting to differentiate itself from.

silverharp · 07-03-2021 10:54PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But the biggest issue for me is that Wanda literally takes a whole town hostage, puts them in her nightmare, controls everything they do and there is zero consequences for her

In fact, far from there being consequences, Monica tells her "they'll never know what you did for them"???????? and she's just allowed fly off like nothing happened.

Made no sense at all.

a hint of Wonder Woman ethics there. There should be some setup that the world governments want rid of her, or at least or confined in some way. If she was the villain of the show it wouldnt be that different.

murpho999 · 07-03-2021 11:12PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

Right, but the sitcom parts have absolutely no impact on the plot, the characters in them are mind controlled or fakes.

We persist with this setup with virtually no payoff for a number of episodes.

Before the show even started people pretty much sussed that it was Wanda projecting this reality in some way because Vision was dead. But we had to go through episodes of irrelevant sitcom to see these 30 second glitches in each episode before learning, yes, it is what you always thought it was!

There was literally no character development aside from learning that Wanda was grieving and delusional, because she was the only character who had any f*cking agency and wasn't either mind controlled or made up!

And the rest of the episodes only served to confirm that yes, Wanda was grieving and delusional. Spectacular character development there.

As I said before, Mr.Robot (a show which is leagues better than this show) took this exact same concept and did it far more skillfully and with greater nuance. They used it for one episode because doing it for 3 is absolutely stretching the concept beyond it's initial charm.

I have patience when a show is well written. The Sopranos is a relatively slow paced show which is very enjoyable - a show isn't automatically good because it is slower paced. A show isn't automatically deep because it doesn't immediately reveal it's wafer thin plot. Rectify is even slower paced again, but elite television because it is competently written. Not liking Wandavision does not equal not liking 'slower paced shows'. Absurd argument.

Also, it didn't take any risks - it was able to use the Marvel name and the pre-existing characters and goodwill built up from a successful universe to justify it's meandering opening few episodes, before descending into the formulaic shlock that fans say it is supposedly attempting to differentiate itself from.

You would swear the first 3 episodes were 2 hours each long and then E4 was were everything was revealed.

Online fans guessing is irrelevant as that always happens and I think everybody knew early on anyway that it wasn't a real world.

So Wanda grieving is not character development. Showing the neighbours is not development, Vison at work etc.

For me there was pay off and it did take risks.

Having the show set in sit coms was very un Marvel like and that is a risk as far as I was concerned.

As for the slow argument, I agree about the Sopranos. I love when shows are not in a rush and for me it was the same here. A mysterious scene was set with small reveals and then big reveals in Episode 4.
You just seem to want the show to start with the show immediately showing that Wanda had taken over a town and its inhabitants and no build up.
I think it was right to show how she was living in an artificial fantasy world which we later find out is linked to her upbringing with her family.

I really don't see what's wrong with that over a 9 episode season.

iguana · 07-03-2021 11:29PM

The pitch meeting was basically my exact feelings.

FunLover18 · 07-03-2021 11:35PM

Personally I also enjoyed just getting to know Wanda and Vision again in the first three episodes. They had been side characters in the movies and their romance very much happened off screen between Civil War and IW so I think it helped to have those three episodes of them together and in love but then I also enjoyed the sitcom aspect and appreciated the effort made to make them accurate.

In terms of Wanda getting comeuppance, I agree it could have been handled better but I hope it is something that will be addressed. I got the impression in the post credit scene that she had put herself in self imposed exile, a bit like Banner at the end of Incredible Hulk. But let's not forget this is Marvel and they redeemed Loki after all. I'm not sure I'd agree that Wanda is worse than Agatha for what she did, Agatha killed people whereas Wanda only engaged in some mild mental torture :pac:

I've also seen a theory that Ralph is Woo's witness given how he laughed at his own surname as if it was the first time he'd heard it, so possibly not the last we've seen of him.

Foxtrol · 07-03-2021 11:36PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Had decided I wouldn't watch this til it finished the run, binge it for once in my life (as something I almost never do). Dunno why just felt given the outlandish nature of the setting, that it might be a show better appreciated as a whole instead of Episode to episode.

So with that in mind ... I watched the first three episodes in a sitting (aka, minding the kid lol)

Oof.

Look. I enjoy a slow burn I really do, and I really have to applaud the commitment to two period authentic sitcom approaches, but those ~90 minutes felt nearly interminable. A cute idea that stretched what felt like a First Act past tolerance. To be fair, I never liked those sitcoms like I Dream of Genie, or Brady Bunch and whatnot, so the pastiches did nothing for me; the longer they went on only making my patience twitch. I grew up with British sitcoms of the 70s so maybe a version of this lampooning Faulty Towers would have sat better lol.

I will keep going and now that we're at that point where our Leads know Something Isn't Right, I hope things ramp up but ye gods getting there was .. well. It felt like Marvel's most self indulgent work to date. I don't want to call it atrocious but I can't say I enjoyed this. So far.

I get your feeling, I felt similar at the time but after watching the rest of the season those early episodes become much more important. Maybe they could have approached the whole thing differently but that time to character and world build is necessary for later. Interested to see how it plays out for you.

The one thing I'd like to get more of your thoughts on is the bold. I might be getting you confused with another one or two mods who seem to very much push back on the formulaic approach/look and feel Marvel usually go for. If so, it seems damned if they do and damned if they don't - they do something unique in the comic book genre and it is classed as 'self indulgent'.

Foxtrol · 08-03-2021 12:11AM

Coybig_ wrote: »

It was very, very poor. Just because I liked Daredevil doesn't mean I am incapable of liking something with a different tone - that is an absurd, childish argument, but an ironic one from somebody accusing me of being vague. Well have some specifics.

I never said DD shows you can't appreciate this, the fact that you are trying to compare the two is what raised a red flag. Though both comic book shows, they are completely different approaches and genres.

Right on episodes 1-3.

Very little substance -in the episodes I referred to, what actually happened? A deluded Wanda interacted with a fake Vision, fake kids and townspeople under a spell. Which of that had any substance?

In episode 3 alone, we get an origin story of 2 characters that will likely remain in the MCU long term and the breach of the Hex and we see the outside world.

We established early on that Wanda was living some sort of lie, this was evident in episode 1. The show spends the next few episodes reiterating that she is living a lie. Thanks show!

In your next series of complaints you highlight the terror of the townspeople. I can say I have the patience to deal with less than an hour of world building.

Depth? You must be joking. It's about as deep as the shallow end of a kids pool.

This could easily have been done in one or two episodes and I even provided you with an example of another show which attempted the same technique with far greater nuance and expertise.

I really didn't enjoy the show you gave as an example - I forced myself through the first season but it just didn't do it for me. Sometimes we just don't like shows, I don't have to make up angry rants to try to justify myself.

Then:

The show spends the next few episodes with the outsiders figuring out what is going on inside Westview. You could have left out Darcy and Woo and the plot wouldn't have been impacted in any way. Added literally nothing to the story and wasted screentime on them. Darcy in particular gets a Deus Ex Machina 5 second scene in the finale and shes gone.

Your point?

Every show could probably cut characters with minimal impact on the story.

Personally, I enjoyed seeing them.

Wanda mentally enslaves and tortures a whole town for days/weeks. That is horrific, nothing justifies this. Yet the show tries to redeem her at the end by having the most laughable, cardboard cutout character, Monica, say 'they will never know what you did/gave up for them'. That is one of the most embarassing lines of dialogue in any superhero movie I've ever watched. Like that makes it ok?! And not 2 episodes before Monica was telling her that this was wrong but then finale she tells Wanda she would have done it too? It's like Marvel were scared of actually taking a risk and making Wanda a real villain (which her actions made her), and instead tried to justify those actions. Atrocious.

I don't agree with you that they made any real attempts to try to redeem her. They could have glossed over the townspeople pain but went back to it again and again, including the finale.

All I saw that as being was to continue their relationship, which they will likely leverage down the line.

And then she apologises to Monica!?! What about the townspeople right behind her!

Again, so what? It was obvious they weren't accepting her apology.

Monica is hysterical at Sword head for absolutely no reason - why on earth is he being painted as bad for not wanting to negotiate with someone who has enslaved an entire town. Especially when we as viewers know just how much pain those townfolk are in! She basically tells the audience (on behalf of the writers), don't be mad at Wanda, without having any information to go off as a character.

The transformation of the Sword head from reasonable guy to maniacle despot was horrifically done - In the space of like 2 episodes he goes from normal to a mustache twirling villain basically screaming his evil plans out to Woo. Why does he shoot the kids, it's literally a terrible excuse to display Monica's powers.

And even acknowledging all that - I'm not sure he even does anything wrong! He tries to stop a dangerous criminal, I'm sure he had authorisation to bring Vision back to life, and a government controlled Vision would certainly be of use against the next Thanos, and those boys he shoots he knows can't be real.

Everything SWORD did was predicated on a lie. Wanda didn't steal Vision, his goal was never to help the townspeople.

I agree he wasn't a great villain, he was basically a carbon copy of nearly every government bad guy we've seen across the MCU.

At the end of episode 7 Agnes does this cringeworthy 4th wall break where she claims to be responsible for everything? For what exactly - it's all Wanda? Agnes making yerman cut into a wall is hardly evil is it?

She was the cause of everything that was messing with Wanda's world and pushing Vision away from her so she would be isolated.

'Yerman' cutting the wall was one of the many things she did to make Vision question the world.

The literally showed us in the montage what she did, it isn't complicated.

The Sword parts in general could have been clipped from Agents of Shield, so utterly bland.

Again, what difference does this make?

The Evan Peters thing was just a slap in the face to viewers. They knew it would have people speculate and whip the fans into a frenzy.

And then crush the theories going forward.

Poor fans can't deal with Marvel not giving them the story they want... :rolleyes:

It descends into this horrific CGI-borefest with this barely developed villain fighting Wanda.

Fair comment, but more of an issue with practically every Superhero movie

She leaves Agnes/Agatha trapped in her own mind around the town, a town where the population knows shes a witch - recipe for disaster surely! And more than that, shes comfortable deciding on Agathas punishment, yet what Wanda did was leagues worse and she gets 0 punishment?

So what? You're angry that the winner gets to decide the loser's fate?

Speaking of Agatha, her motivation was 'more power'? Wow!

Another so what? Not that many movie or TV show bad guys that aren't driven by power or money. Do you write rants about every show?

2 Visions hitting each other has to be the most mundane, boring finale fight yet.
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Which they ended in a philosophical discussion that was exactly on point for the character. Again you're ranting about nothing

It was, in my opinion, a very poor show which people are willing to look more favourably towards because it shows a Marvel logo in the opening munites of each episode.

You're entitled to not enjoy the show but most of the above just seems like a mix between an angry attempt to nitpick things that could be said about most shows out there and the rest appear like that you either weren't paying attention to or didn't understand it (I'd be surprised by the latter because the show wasn't complicated...)

Overall, I don't know where this anger is coming from. A lot of people liked the show and you didn't - no one hurt you and the overall runtime was so sort you barely wasted any time.

pjohnson · 08-03-2021 12:26AM

Christ you still have that shtick of blaming fans for being stupid enough to trust Marvel and bother speculating when it likely just meaningless clickbait fuel. Plenty have said they arent doing that again and have dulled any and all expectations for the other MCU shows.

If that was the aim to dull expectations and kill off fans making theories they nailed it. Fans wont make that investment again.

beakerjoe · 08-03-2021 01:07AM

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

The rights reverted back to Disney and they can now be revisited... Daredevil will be getting a reboot...Punisher & JJ possibly

I dont want a reboot.... i want new seasons. Both left me wanting more.

The Inbetween is mine · 08-03-2021 01:14AM

beakerjoe wrote: »

I dont want a reboot.... i want new seasons. Both left me wanting more.

Well,.it's only rumour.. but Charlie Cox is rumoured to be playing daredevil in the upcoming Spiderman movie...and chances are he will be involved in the MCU going forward

08-03-2021 01:14AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair dues.

I really enjoyed it.

I'm someone who has never picked up a comic book and had a middling interest in the MCU up until infinity war/endgame

Yeh. The uber geeks who know the universe are a tiny fraction of the total audience for this. I’m in your position, I thought the sitcom idea was interesting so I signed up.

Forbes says it was the top streaming show in Jan.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlymayberry/2021/02/11/disneys-wandavision-cast-into-top-viewing-spot-worldwide/

A straight story about minor marvel characters wouldn’t have interested me at all.

08-03-2021 01:21AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Christ you still have that shtick of blaming fans for being stupid enough to trust Marvel and bother speculating when it likely just meaningless clickbait fuel. Plenty have said they arent doing that again and have dulled any and all expectations for the other MCU shows.

If that was the aim to dull expectations and kill off fans making theories they nailed it. Fans wont make that investment again.

So because some actor appeared in this who also appeared in some other movie or something there’s some responsibility on the producers to spends millions on another movie that he has to appear in?

pixelburp · 08-03-2021 11:17AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I get your feeling, I felt similar at the time but after watching the rest of the season those early episodes become much more important. Maybe they could have approached the whole thing differently but that time to character and world build is necessary for later. Interested to see how it plays out for you.

The one thing I'd like to get more of your thoughts on is the bold. I might be getting you confused with another one or two mods who seem to very much push back on the formulaic approach/look and feel Marvel usually go for. If so, it seems damned if they do and damned if they don't - they do something unique in the comic book genre and it is classed as 'self indulgent'.

I meant self-indulgent in the sense that there was clearly no creative oversight on these episodes, the production allowed to just spend three episodes, indulging in the period-appropriate chuckles it obviously put effort into - all lasting 90 minutes for maybe, 3, 4 minutes of story pay-off? Ehhhh I dunno, my inner writer chaffed at the waffle. I don't consider myself an impatient man when it comes to storytelling, and think my record on this and other forums speak to that: but in a rare moment, I actually spoke to the screen, "Jesus, just get on with it".

And yes. I think Marvel's MCU has a formula that is both its primary strength and weakness. But when it has allowed itself to be off the chain a little - thinking primarily here of the Guardians films - the universe shines with a little wit and creativity. Dr Strange nearly had it but the script was mind-numbingly generic. There is space for it, but you can go too far as well: so where a film production often has to sacrifice to the gods of editing to fit an approximate 2-hour runtime and pace, Wandavision is (so far!) smelling of that modern Streaming TV phenomenon, where in the absence of ad breaks or whatnot, pacing goes out the window. On a totally separate tangent, this is why (IMO) so many streaming comedies struggle: that classic 22 minute runtime forces snappiness and efficiency.

Oh, and Kathryn Hahn

vibed so obviously she was more than she was letting on; I'm in two minds whether it's for good or ill. Knowing her from Parks & Rec, I just default to presuming she's an antagonist. We'll see.

gmisk · 08-03-2021 11:21AM

beakerjoe wrote: »

I dont want a reboot.... i want new seasons. Both left me wanting more.

I personally don't want more.
They were well cast leads (daredevil, punisher), but the seasons were far far too long imo and seriously padded, maybe Disney/marvel would do a better job than Netflix though

silverharp · 08-03-2021 01:04PM

I think the show was clever in that it was a way of pulling normies in to watch it (and Im one) , I certainly dont have any interest in watching side MCU characters that I know nothing about with their own shows. Then again they will run out of road if they keep doing bait and switch shows, maybe? they are in a bind perhaps, these kind of shows are expensive to make so dont they need a hook to pull in parents etc?

Mark Hamill · 08-03-2021 04:45PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

Right on episodes 1-3.

The first 3 episodes show the extent of the delusion that Wanda is in and introduced us to the other residents of Westview and how they are trapped in the delusion. You would not be as sympathetic to them at then end of the show if they were nameless and voiceless background characters.
Also, we get 3 episodes of Wanda interacting with the townspeople (with the implication later that there is a lot of other episodes that we never see). In almost every interaction, the townspeople seem almost ecstatically happy. So we can see why Wanda is so easily deluded into thinking they are happy and automatically assumes that Agatha is making them say they are suffering in the last episode.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]Wanda mentally enslaves and tortures a whole town for days/weeks. That is horrific, nothing justifies this. Yet the show tries to redeem her at the end by having the most laughable, cardboard cutout character, Monica, say 'they will never know what you did/gave up for them'. That is one of the most embarassing lines of dialogue in any superhero movie I've ever watched. Like that makes it ok?! And not 2 episodes before Monica was telling her that this was wrong but then finale she tells Wanda she would have done it too? It's like Marvel were scared of actually taking a risk and making Wanda a real villain (which her actions made her), and instead tried to justify those actions. Atrocious.

Wanda did it by accident. Kind of in a similar way to when Banner Hulks out by accident, destroys a few city blocks and then we are expected to be sympathetic to him. She had to kill the person she loved herself, only for Thanos to immediately bring him back to life and kill him again anyway, and then she was dusted and brought back to life 5 years later with almost everyone she intimately knew and/or looked up to from before gone (Vision, Ironman, Captain America, Black Widow, Quicksilver).
And then, after giving herself back the love she wanted and two kids on top of that, she had to give them away again because she found out she was hurting people to do it.
And Monica, who recently lost someone and knows both a) the subjective desire and temptation to do anything to bring them back b) that, from an objective POV, it would bot be justifiable to continue doing what Wanda does, offers Wanda her sympathy.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]Monica is hysterical at Sword head for absolutely no reason - why on earth is he being painted as bad for not wanting to negotiate with someone who has enslaved an entire town. Especially when we as viewers know just how much pain those townfolk are in! She basically tells the audience (on behalf of the writers), don't be mad at Wanda, without having any information to go off as a character.

At the very least, he is super stupid. He has no idea what killing Wanda will do to the other townspeople.
Of course, we learn that he is kind of doing what Agatha was doing - trying to get Wanda to use her power so that he could take it (to power white Vision). He doesn't want to negotiate with her because he wants her dead so she can't interfere with him using white Vision.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]And even acknowledging all that - I'm not sure he even does anything wrong! He tries to stop a dangerous criminal, I'm sure he had authorisation to bring Vision back to life, and a government controlled Vision would certainly be of use against the next Thanos, and those boys he shoots he knows can't be real.

You don't see anything massively ethically wrong with bringing Vision back to life so the government can control him, and then trying to kill Wanda (ie Visions only surviving next of kin and who also has a massive interest in bring Vision back to life)?
If he is so innocent, why not ask for Wanda's help in bringing Vision back instead of lying and pretending to scrap his parts?

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]The Evan Peters thing was just a slap in the face to viewers. They knew it would have people speculate and whip the fans into a frenzy.

It also fits the sitcom motive. A piece of guest-star celeb-stunt-casting where the actor is a big distraction to the audience over the character they portray.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]She leaves Agnes/Agatha trapped in her own mind around the town, a town where the population knows shes a witch - recipe for disaster surely! And more than that, shes comfortable deciding on Agathas punishment, yet what Wanda did was leagues worse and she gets 0 punishment?

Does everyone else know she is a witch? Even if they did, they might not after Wanda puts her spell on Agatha. And given she is a witch, could anyone else imprison her?
And Agatha did far worse than Wanda. Wanda didn't truly understand what she did at first, and how much she was hurting the townspeople, and when she finally did, she undid the spell even though it meant loosing her kids and Vision. Agatha knew from the beginning how Wanda was torturing the others, yet only exasperated it to better understand Wanda's power so she could take it for herself.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]Speaking of Agatha, her motivation was 'more power'? Wow!

Sure, totally unrealistic :rolleyes:

Coybig_ wrote: »

[*]2 Visions hitting each other has to be the most mundane, boring finale fight yet.

Two characters who can fly and phase through matter is a boring fight? Did you even watch it? The second half of the fight was a philosophical argument.

Coybig_ wrote: »

[/LIST]
It was, in my opinion, a very poor show which people are willing to look more favourably towards because it shows a Marvel logo in the opening munites of each episode.

You not liking the conceit of the show, or the ultimate direction of the story does not make it poor. You seemed to missed a lot of the nuance of a lot of the scenes, characters and interactions.

Foxtrol · 08-03-2021 05:13PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I meant self-indulgent in the sense that there was clearly no creative oversight on these episodes, the production allowed to just spend three episodes, indulging in the period-appropriate chuckles it obviously put effort into - all lasting 90 minutes for maybe, 3, 4 minutes of story pay-off? Ehhhh I dunno, my inner writer chaffed at the waffle. I don't consider myself an impatient man when it comes to storytelling, and think my record on this and other forums speak to that: but in a rare moment, I actually spoke to the screen, "Jesus, just get on with it".

And yes. I think Marvel's MCU has a formula that is both its primary strength and weakness. But when it has allowed itself to be off the chain a little - thinking primarily here of the Guardians films - the universe shines with a little wit and creativity. Dr Strange nearly had it but the script was mind-numbingly generic. There is space for it, but you can go too far as well: so where a film production often has to sacrifice to the gods of editing to fit an approximate 2-hour runtime and pace, Wandavision is (so far!) smelling of that modern Streaming TV phenomenon, where in the absence of ad breaks or whatnot, pacing goes out the window. On a totally separate tangent, this is why (IMO) so many streaming comedies struggle: that classic 22 minute runtime forces snappiness and efficiency.

Oh, and Kathryn Hahn
vibed so obviously she was more than she was letting on; I'm in two minds whether it's for good or ill. Knowing her from Parks & Rec, I just default to presuming she's an antagonist. We'll see.

I understand your feelings towards the first 2 episodes, I felt quite similar (I'll stand my ground that episode 3 doesn't belong with those), however having watched the full series those first episodes were key to the whole thing working - the concept of the sitcoms, the characters, the world.

I'm fearing saying too much and spoiling so I'll hold off going into it more until you get through it (not sure how you're on this thread without spoiling yourself).

Foxtrol · 08-03-2021 05:21PM

kerplun k wrote: »

I’d still argue that most of these things are only a soft lead ins and will not be essential viewing when watching the movies. We had nothing of the scale that was hinted at throughout the run.

This is something Feige has actually confirmed.

https://www.list.co.uk/article/124024-kevin-feige-marvel-fans-dont-need-to-watch-wandavision-to-understand-movies/

If the characters in WandaVision do pop up in other stuff, the origins will be touched upon and sure D+ is there if the fans want to go and learn more about those characters, and I think those characters will also be mainly centric to future D+ shows.

What Feige actually said in that article is much more along the lines to what I said - that WandaVision is like the movies.

Feige wrote:

"But it is very similar movie-to-movie, honestly. We try to make the stories unfold in a way that if you are following along and have seen what has preceded it, you'll be right up to speed. And more importantly, if you haven't, you'll be up to speed.

For example, you could watch Infinity War without having seen Black Panther because they had Banner act like the 'idiot' where they explain to him about Wakanda etc or without watching Dr Strange because he explains who his is to Tony and Peter. They always make their movies so you 'can' watch them without seeing previous - that however doesn't mean it is advisable and I'd expect it to be the pretty similar with D+.

Foxtrol · 08-03-2021 05:32PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Christ you still have that shtick of blaming fans for being stupid enough to trust Marvel and bother speculating when it likely just meaningless clickbait fuel. Plenty have said they arent doing that again and have dulled any and all expectations for the other MCU shows.

If that was the aim to dull expectations and kill off fans making theories they nailed it. Fans wont make that investment again.

Some serious overreaction there.

Fans theorizing got many things right (e.g.,

Agnes, the twins, White Vision

) but other times they turned out to be red herrings (e.g.,

Pietro

), and others in hindsight were absolute leaps that weren't really strongly pointed to at all (e.g.,

Mephisto

).

Pretty childish approach to take their ball and go home because all of their theories didn't 'win'. If people get so tied to fan theories it is probably best for them to take a step back from them.

paulbok · 08-03-2021 10:04PM

SimonTemplar wrote: »

His videos are extremely witty and well written.

That was one of his best yet.

kerplun k · 08-03-2021 10:27PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

What Feige actually said in that article is much more along the lines to what I said - that WandaVision is like the movies.

For example, you could watch Infinity War without having seen Black Panther because they had Banner act like the 'idiot' where they explain to him about Wakanda etc or without watching Dr Strange because he explains who his is to Tony and Peter. They always make their movies so you 'can' watch them without seeing previous - that however doesn't mean it is advisable and I'd expect it to be the pretty similar with D+.

Don’t agree. The movies are a massive revenue stream for Disney. They ain’t gonna mess with this. Sure there’ll be soft lead ins and loose connections, but thinking about it now, WandaVision was never gonna introduce the Multiverse or Mutants. Or FF.

Spidey was introduced in CW, the Quantum realm in AntMan, these are essential viewing, this isn’t something we’ll see in the shows.

It ain’t gonna do anyone any harm to dial those expectations right down when it comes to these shows, If anything WandaVision has taught me, it’s that these shows should just be watched as self contained stories with no ground breaking impact to the wider MCU.

expectationlost · 08-03-2021 10:58PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFxn1q-KqW8

long detailed interview with series director MATT SHAKMAN

jface187 · 08-03-2021 11:00PM

I agree. Fergie said the event's of Wanda V would tie directly into Doc. Strange 2.
I mean what is going to be in Doc. Strange 2 really? Wanda looking for her kids? that's about it and maybe Doc training Wanda. I'm just going to assume whatever the main plot of Doc 2 is going to be about him. The Doctor needs a knockout film that puts him up there as a main player. I thought the first one was ok, but I don't think it made people fall in love with him.

I think these MCU shows will be connected then the old ones but will be mostly their own thing.

Foxtrol · 08-03-2021 11:13PM

kerplun k wrote: »

Don’t agree. The movies are a massive revenue stream for Disney. They ain’t gonna mess with this. Sure there’ll be soft lead ins and loose connections, but thinking about it now, WandaVision was never gonna introduce the Multiverse or Mutants. Or FF.

Spidey was introduced in CW, the Quantum realm in AntMan, these are essential viewing, this isn’t something we’ll see in the shows.

It ain’t gonna do anyone any harm to dial those expectations right down when it comes to these shows, If anything WandaVision has taught me, it’s that these shows should just be watched as self contained stories with no ground breaking impact to the wider MCU.

You disagree with Feige??

I agree they are unlikely to drop something MCU shattering in them, however that is the case with the vast majority of MCU movies. Most movies deal mostly in character development while only moving around a few chess pieces - the latter can usually be explained sufficiently with a line or two of dialogue or a flashback.

Taking your examples:
- someone could easily watch Spiderman Homecoming without seeing CW, they literally show a video montage from Spiderman's perspective at the start that shows what happened from his perspective during CW
- you also lose very little watching Endgame without seeing Antman 2, they spend plenty of time explaining to characters what the quantum realm is

Similar approaches will be used to explain to viewers how the broader story has moved on if they missed WandaVision. Given what we've seen Multiverse of Madness they'll face similar challenges as both of your examples combined - providing backstories to characters (who Wanda's kids are and possibly White Vision) and explaining a MacGuffin (The Darkhold). It will be pretty similar for explaining things in Captain Marvel 2 - the backstory to Monica and who SWORD are.

WandaVision - Disney+ (***Spoilers***)

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WandaVision - Disney+ (Spoilers)