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WandaVision - Disney+ (***Spoilers***)

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,428 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    There is no way for me to know if that is a misrepresentation of your 'overall opinion', however my post is in line with the opinion you've expressed on this thread (and unless I am confusing you with another poster, opinions you've repeated after other MCU movies). I'm not sure exactly how I am being reductionist, as the elements of your opinion I responded to aren't at all complex.

    [...] aside of what I see as the quite elitist view of what cinema 'should be'.

    Well I can't read your mind nor am going to try and defend whatever my record on the MCU within Boards is to your eyes. There are ones I love, and ones I hate. It'd be weird after 25 movies if people didn't. Wandavision was somewhere in the middle on balance, it had flaws. (Nearly) every film I watch I try to articulate my thoughts as best as possible, and happily publicise them here and on letterboxd. I stand by them, for whatever they're worth or value people get from those thoughts but don't see the MCU as a net negative. Far from it TBH. Not that you think so, you seem to have drawn a big judgemental conclusion :)

    This is real "agree to disagree" territory at this stage but do somewhat resent the reading that my opinion is affecting towards "elitist" based on having a preference of what I'd LIKE the MCU to be - as opposed to framing it as what I demand it SHOULD be, like some kind of Marvel fundamentalist. The MCU isn't perfect, and spitballing on perceived flaws, or how it could be more, shouldn't be construed as elitist posturing, and is a legitimate topic of discussion. Pretty insulting TBH, be it accidental or otherwise and only stifles debate. Formulas have strengths, they get stale, etc.

    Like I said, agree to disagree at this point, but don't intend stifling my thoughts on a series I generally love in a different way to you. That's ok you know, people are allowed love things in different ways :rolleyes: :) I'll be in my corner, enjoying it like so, you'll be in yours. I suspect the world won't end ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Well I can't read your mind nor am going to try and defend whatever my record on the MCU within Boards is to your eyes. There are ones I love, and ones I hate. It'd be weird after 25 movies if people didn't. Wandavision was somewhere in the middle on balance, it had flaws. (Nearly) every film I watch I try to articulate my thoughts as best as possible, and happily publicise them here and on letterboxd. I stand by them, for whatever they're worth or value people get from those thoughts but don't see the MCU as a net negative. Far from it TBH. Not that you think so, you seem to have drawn a big judgemental conclusion :)

    This is real "agree to disagree" territory at this stage but do somewhat resent the reading that my opinion might be somehow "elitist" for having a preference of what I'd LIKE the MCU to be - as opposed to framing it as what I demand it SHOULD be, like some kind of Marvel fundamentalist. The MCU isn't perfect, and spitballing on perceived flaws, or how it could be more, shouldn't be construed as elitist posturing, and is a legitimate topic of discussion. Pretty insulting TBH, be it accidental or otherwise and only stifles debate. Formulas have strengths, they get stale, etc.

    Like I said, agree to disagree at this point, but don't intend stifling my thoughts on a series I generally love in a different way to you. That's ok you know, people are allowed love things in different ways :rolleyes: :) I'll be in my corner, enjoying it like so, you'll be in yours. I suspect the world won't end ;)

    I never claimed the MCU was perfect and throughout the thread I've given my own opinions on areas where this show could have been improved and have discussed them with many posters.

    I also, never said your opinion was 'elitist', I said I haven't heard of a reason why MCU using shows/movies to build their wider world is a negative that didn't revolve around an 'elitist' mindset of what cinema should be. I twice left it open to you to expand on your opinion on this but you have twice declined. Sounds like you don't want to engage any further but I'll leave the window open a third time for you to have that legitimate discussion you claim to want.

    Having said that, I'm not sure how you could blame someone who reads lines like the below and then potentially made a leap to an elitist opinion - deciding what is story and what is a product...
    pixelburp wrote: »
    failing to resist the desire to ultimately act as yet another bridge to future stories, and a launchpad for new characters. It just makes it all feel less like a story, and more like a product.

    I just did a quick search and it turns out had a discussion on your same complaints some 6 years and 12 movies ago - CGI battles and the interconnectedness of the MCU after Age of Ultron. What you were complaining about as being 'pointless' in that thread led to Sokovia accords, everything in Civil War that caused the break up of the Avengers, set up IW and Endgame, and was still being felt in WandaVision.

    You mention 'love' but this seems much more like a toxic relationship - you constantly complain about the same things and yet keep going back with the expectation 'next time will be different' and the cycle begins again. Per your earlier post, next time for you is Loki and if you go in without accepting that these fundamental elements of the MCU will definitely be there you'll be in for another disappointment. As I said in 2015, if you don't like it you better find a different girl.

    Flash from the past:
    I'd have preferred that to "let's destroy another city".
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    This keeps coming up and I don’t really get it. What do you really expect/want to see from the end of an Avengers movie?
    pixelburp wrote: »
    It's deadening, and only serves to emphasise how little is at stake for the characters. And yes, no matter how super the heroes are, they're still meant to be characters. That it's the Avengers doesn't mean the finale has to be reduced to only spectacle. At least the original film, while being itself an orgy of urban destruction, made narrative sense because it was a demonstration of the Avengers overcoming their differences and personality clashes to work together. Clichéd as hell but it gelled together.

    Avengers 2 did the classic thing that sequels often do by assuming the next film has to out-do the previous in terms of scale or showiness. What was at stake? Ok yes a city, lots of civilians but they were just background details. It was a nice touch to show heroes being actually heroic, but ultimately was hard to be in any way invested in something when the scale and spectacle was so vast, with resonance with the characters' journeys. The first half of the film openly played with the notion of Tony Stark / Banner going too far and splitting the team, but it came to nothing by the films end - nope, we gotta have thousands of CGI extras exploding again.

    Oddly, Civil War looks like the third act Avengers 2 could have been, which just made Avengers 2 feel even more hollow.
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    You could say that about most of the Marvel movies, nearly all setup/lead into the next. AOU clearly had a third act which closed off the Ultron storyline. The obvious flow from one movie to the next is just becoming more apparent now for the characters that have been around since phase 1 and I can only see it ramping up further in the lead up to Infinity Wars. I can say you’ll likely feel the exact same about the end of Civil War too so get yourself prepared.
    pixelburp wrote: »
    Well I wouldn't presume to know what I feel about a movie that hasn't come out yet; it's all well and good to talk about Marvel's grand plan for this super-narrative they got going on, but frankly it's frustrating that a film addresses some decent character beats only to jettison them because it's time to wreck a city (Oh, we did that in the first film? Hmmm, but what if it was flying!) And to introduce a new character, only to then immediately kill them off is about as thrilling as Redshirt Death #435. It's a massive cheat & sidestep from putting characters in any kind of peril.

    It's ok to not be in love with every film Marvel comes out with, and to be disappointed that the good work they did in Avengers 1 got abandoned, or at least put on the back-burner, for the sequel. The first half hour of Avengers 2? I enjoyed it, the first battle was completely OTT but the scale was just right and did a good job establishing the new status quo. The Banner / Stark drama had lots of potential. The back half though was just dull and pointless, and there gets a point where just saying 'oh well it'll all come together in the future films' becomes tedious, because there's a point where being a constant cocktease ain't charming anymore. All build-up, no pay-off.

    And while on balance the movies are now all tied into each other, the earlier films definitely had stronger character-based hearts, with each of the Avengers having distinct emotional journeys. Throw in Cap America 2 as well, before, yet again, it was union-mandated that a city be wrecked.
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    The character beats aren’t jettisoned though; they’re still there and will come to the fore down the road.

    If you don’t like the cocktease then you better find a different girl as this is what Marvel do. They’re in totally uncharted waters as far as filmmaking/media go and some who want payoffs and closure just wont like crossover movies. I’m happy to see things build until the Infinity War and at that point if there isn’t some kind of closure to the story arc then I’ll join you in complaining, until then I’m going to sit back and enjoy.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,428 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Toxic relationship. For goodness sake foxtrol, just leave it be. I'm not obligated to defend my tastes, be they loves, loathings or complicated cognitive dissonances between, and whatever bee in your bonnet refuses to just let others have ... ... Oh my. "Mixed feelings". Over a MCU TV show.

    Digging out old posts is OTT and to be blunt, you've been weirdly dogged with others on this thread TBH. At the risk of a run of last-words, agree to disagree. I've offered the hand; Save the virtual pop psychology and your data plan. Nobody else here likely gives a F. Move on. I am. And yes, I'm looking forward to Loki cos it looks half decent. How awful.

    *exits stage left*


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Toxic relationship. For goodness sake foxtrol, just leave it be. I'm not obligated to defend my tastes, be they loves, loathings or complicated cognitive dissonances between, and whatever bee in your bonnet refuses to just let others have ... ... Oh my. "Mixed feelings". Over a MCU TV show.

    Digging out old posts is OTT and to be blunt, you've been weirdly dogged with others on this thread TBH. At the risk of a run of last-words, agree to disagree. I've offered the hand; Save the virtual pop psychology and your data plan. Nobody else here likely gives a F. Move on. I am. And yes, I'm looking forward to Loki cos it looks half decent. How awful.

    *exits stage left*


    I'm not sure why you're trying to play the victim for me having the gall to question a post you made on a public forum and then confirming the feeling that we'd had this discussion at some point before...

    Appreciate you 'extending the hand' while again strawmaning me, alongside throwing a few more completely unnecessary sly digs :rolleyes: I'm perfectly happy for you or anyone to have mixed feelings over WandaVision - I've repeatedly noted my own mixed feelings here, for example how I was never a fan of the original approach of the show and how they rigidly stuck to the comedy format of the given decade. What I have done however is push back on specific claims that aren't based in reality - like posters saying 'nothing happened in episode 3' or your recent imagined endemic of sky beams. People can dislike anything they want but they don't have the freedom to just make stuff up to try to validate that point of view and expect no one to comment.

    Future narrative preparation, broader world building, and the use of big budget CGI are core elements of the MCU - that isn't 'agree to disagree' territory, they are facts both in 2015 and is today. Look, if you want to continue to refuse to accept these and to adjust your expectations accordingly and prefer to instead continue to complain about the same thing after every MCU outing then fire ahead.

    I do agree that likely no one else cares, so happy to leave it there. Hopefully we don't end up having the same discussion again in 2026 ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,217 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,831 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    How the 'WandaVision' Choking Scene Helped Establish Marvel's First TV Series

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhjRYRouWbM




  • Registered Users Posts: 86,327 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    WandaVision Agatha Spinoff Starring Kathryn Hahn Eyed at Disney+


    TV Line



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice


    Hrmmm.. maybe Agatha All Along to be the.. end of an episode music? Might grow old as an intro.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,985 ✭✭✭EoinMcLovin




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,428 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I mean, ok? I love Kathyrn Hahn, but not sure how you hang a show off her character. I presume they'll take the standard approach now with villains as lead - and have a Big Bad somehow even more evil than the titular character.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    I really dislike this new approach of making villains good guys, absolving them of wrong doing. The most grievous case being Jason Statham's heel about turn in the Fast franchise. I'm sceptical about this, we literally saw her drain the life from a whole coven of witches. The only thing I can see working is if they do an Agatha All Along series where we basically see her being behind various events throughout history but even then how do you not make her the protagonist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭pjcb




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    When you look at her actions, has she really been a true villain? I think she is much more of a grey character, all we've seen her do that was villainous was absorb powers that killed a coven that was about to kill her and then try to take the powers of a witch who was holding an entire town hostage.

    I think her continuing to do what is best for her in any show would be well within what we've seen from the character so far (somewhat Loki like).



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,127 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    House of M can't happen until the muties show up

    Whatever this is or could be is anyone's guess definitely seems like another left swing the guessing and craziness of Wandavision and who we thought was coming who we thought different characters were too I just think sit back and enjoy the ride.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,098 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    So, yeah....

    Multiverse......

    I don’t think we're getting a Season 2.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,428 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With a wink and a nod, how engrained is this show with Dr Strange 2? I get the impression if one hadn't watched this, you'd be fairly lost in the film.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,627 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Yeah, Wanda's story in this film directly follows on from Wandavision. If you went in blind without seeing Wandavision or at least some kind of recap video it'd be a pretty big gulf to get over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Is it time to re-litigate the ending to this.

    Spoilers for Dr Strange MoM below.

    As someone who thought this ended on a somewhat optimistic note while accepting that Wanda had still done some horrible things, I was surprised that she was in full villain mode in MoM to the point that it didn't sit well with me. I'm going to have to rewatch this finale because I didn't see that turn coming to the extent that it did.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Spon Farmer


    WandaVision ends in that isolated house with Wanda tapping into the Multiverse and as we learn in the film to do over she is the only Wanda to not have the boys for real.

    As Strange says in MoM Wanda “has hold of The Darkhold and it has hold of her”.

    It corrupts those who possess it and add to that Wanda’s desire to be with her children - she let them go in Westview but as their mother she couldn’t truly let them go.

    Her descent into harkens during. the time in between in just something the audience has to accept. How do they show it ? Until her attack on the sorcerers she hasn’t actually done anything except A lot of hours of her meditating with The Darkhold open in front of her being creepy, And her telepathically hiring demons to hunt America Chavez






  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Agree with a lot of that. I am happy with how they approached it.

    We didn't need to see a complete descent into further darkness - I am sure they probably had something shot for it but it didn't make the final cut. We saw how even before getting her hands on the Darkhold her idea of right and wrong was far off due to her grief. They beat us over the head in the movie that the Darkhold makes people worse and we see the 'real' Wanda come back out at the end of the movie when she says she isn't a monster and wouldn't hurt anyone.



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