How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

ExMachina1000 · 06-03-2021 12:44PM

sebdavis wrote: »

In the middle of the pandemic Ireland is lucky that loads of people work in multi nationals and have continued to work/pay tax etc. Without these workers the country would be in an absolute disaster. We should not even have a consideration of increasing that rate

The flip side of that is the many people in the public sector who have been fully paid throughout from the public purse.

Also a pay rise.

Does it balance out though?

Eric Cartman · 06-03-2021 12:59PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we either increase their taxes or our taxes, which one would you like?

we should change the way we accept it, leave it at 12.5 for the time being, but accept some of it as stocks and shares

Or we could cut spending and do everything to encourage more multinationals here to add more jobs

Jim2007 · 06-03-2021 01:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The most important thing for me in terms of where to emigrate to is that there wouldn't be the constant threat of lockdowns.

Right, because being unable to get a bed in a hospital when in urgent need of medical attention is so much a better feeling.

Jim2007 · 06-03-2021 01:14PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Or we could cut spending and do everything to encourage more multinationals here to add more jobs

You've got an economy capable of reducing the national debt from 124% to 58% in about 10 years, do nothing but leave it alone.

06-03-2021 01:17PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Right, because being unable to get a bed in a hospital when in urgent need of medical attention is so much a better feeling.

Life is about taking risks. For me personally case numbers wouldn't be a consideration.

What would you suggest an Irish guy who owns a pub who wants to emigrate in order to make a living do? Go somewhere where there's no threat of lockdown, which would mean he'd have no livelihood, or opt for somewhere with low numbers but where the threat of lockdown is constant?

PintOfView · 06-03-2021 01:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Life is about taking risks. For me personally case numbers wouldn't be a consideration.

Yes, of course, if you weren't the one in hospital dying it might not be a consideration for you.

Whatever anyone says about the government we have avoided the worst that can happen.

This is from the BBC on 15 Jan 2021, talking about Brazil
"Amazonas suffered heavy losses in the first wave of the pandemic but is also being badly hit by a new rise in infections.
Refrigerated containers were brought to hospitals to help store bodies last week, as authorities declared a state of emergency."

So people advocating against lockdowns should research the consequences of getting their wish!

06-03-2021 01:56PM

PintOfView wrote: »

Yes, of course, if you weren't the one in hospital dying it might not be a consideration for you.

Whatever anyone says about the government we have avoided the worst that can happen.

This is from the BBC on 15 Jan 2021, talking about Brazil
"Amazonas suffered heavy losses in the first wave of the pandemic but is also being badly hit by a new rise in infections.
Refrigerated containers were brought to hospitals to help store bodies last week, as authorities declared a state of emergency."

So people advocating against lockdowns should research the consequences of getting their wish!

So what you suggest a guy who owns a bar in Ireland and who decides he has no choice but to emigrate because the Irish Government has forced him to close his business for over a year? Should he look to go to somewhere where he knows his business wouldn't be forced to close, or to go somewhere with low numbers, but where the threat of lockdown is constant?

PintOfView · 06-03-2021 02:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So what you suggest a guy who owns a bar in Ireland and who decides he has no choice but to emigrate because the Irish Government has forced him to close his business for over a year? Should he look to go to somewhere where he knows his business wouldn't be forced to close, or to go somewhere with low numbers, but where the threat of lockdown is constant?

I'd probably suggest he holds fire and sees what happens here once the vaccines have been rolled out.

I would expect that once all the elderly and vulnerable have had the vaccine we'll be in a different place,
and a very different place once majority of the population have had it.

Wanderer78 · 06-03-2021 02:11PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Or we could cut spending and do everything to encourage more multinationals here to add more jobs

so implement austerity like measures, thats helped us a lot during this crisis, hasnt it, particularly our health system!

Jim2007 wrote: »

You've got an economy capable of reducing the national debt from 124% to 58% in about 10 years, do nothing but leave it alone.

...and reduce the overall money supply, how is that gonna help the economy?

gozunda · 06-03-2021 02:16PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Locked in, but open domestically for the guts of a year. Ireland has been closed domestically for the guts of a year.

We've had next to no debate. No opposition in the Dáil, no opposition in the media. Any and all dissent has been crushed. Dr Feeley, Dr Morrisey, Dr De Brún, for example (cue "they're cranks and "anti-vaxxers").

If Peter Hitchens is an "anti-vaxxer" then why did he get the vaccine a few weeks ago? https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2021/02/peter-hitchens-ive-had-the-covid-jab-and-all-it-cost-me-was-my-freedom.html

You did what I said would happen in my post. You're focusing on the newspapers and individuals I mentioned in my post. My point was not that the Daily Mail is a particularly good newspaper, but that it provides an alternative to newspapers such as The Guardian and The Independent, for example. Can you name an Irish newspaper that provides an alternative voice to either The Irish Times or The Irish Independent? In the US there's Fox News, Breitbart (again, the point is no that they are particularly good, but that they are an alternative voice and offer balance and opposition), and, most crucially of all, the two main parties, The Republican Party and The Democratic Party, are ideologically opposed to one another (although I have heard it be argued that they are increasingly less so).

I didn't say that democracy was important (although it obviously is). I said that debate and an alternative voice are fundamental to a well-functioning democracy.

I didn't mention the media in the context of Russia. I mentioned the Russian 'avos' and I quoted from an article an American gentleman wrote about Russia. Do you think this sentence is accurate:

"The casual, often fatalist approach to COVID-19 here is a world away from its treatment in the West, where people spend their days fearful they might die today, tomorrow, or next week."

I've listened to a number of interviews with Dr Anders Tegnell and made a point in several of those interviews to say that Sweden considered the broader health and well-being of the population in its approach to covid. Unlike Ireland, Sweden won't have to unterrify possibly 80 to 90% of the population. Sweden won't have to deal with the issue of neighbours turning on each other. That can't, and won't be solved overnight. Sweden won't have to deal with the terrible damage that has been done to the young through lack of education and opportunity. In my opinion, a lot of the damage is irreversible. That is not to be a doom merchant. I just can't see how it can be undone, but I very much hope it can be.

Imagine a guy who owns a pub in Ireland. Say he decided to emigrate after growing fed up of being closed for a year. Would he risk going to Dan Andrews' Melbourne? Would he risk going to New Zealand where a single case is enough to cause the government to lock down the country? Would he go to another country in Western Europe where the threat of lockdowns is a constant fear and possibility? Or would he go to somewhere like Florida, where Governor De Santis has vowed that the sate will never lock down again? Or to South Dakota, where Governor Noem has said on numerous occasions that there's no such thing as an unessential livelihood and who refused to shut down the state?

And I wasn't talking about me emigrating. I was trying to offer a bit of advice to the young man who has decided to emigrate.

And something else has just occurred to me. Because of the lack of opposition in Ireland (and it really is the case when you compare Ireland with other countries), Irish people are relying on the government to return to them their freedoms and liberty. But what if the government doesn't? What if it keeps restrictions in place indefinitely and justifies it by saying "we're worried about potential variants"? What then? Protest? That won't happen. RTÉ will put pressure on the government? That won't happen. This is why it's so important to have opposition, be it in politics or in the media. The Daily Mail, for example, (yes, it's a rag, but that's irrelevant) started a campaign a few months ago to pressure the government into allowing people to visit loved ones in care homes. The government soon started talking about relaxing the restrictions on care home visits. The Daily Mail is currently campaigning for the way in which deaths are recorded in England to be investigated. The newspaper is putting pressure on the government. Talk Radio puts pressure on the government every day. It's irrelevant whether you like them or not. The point is that they are opposition.

Not sure you read what was written in context. But no matter.

New Zealand etc are internally restrictions free precisely because they are "locked in". Rights to external travel have been suspended. We've gone a different route along with most of the rest of Europe. Yes weve had restrictions to help keep case numbers though the UK has taken a stronger line overall in restrictions than here.

As stated we're in the middle of a pandemic not some ideological crusade where whether covid exists or not or there's some big conspiracy to deny use 'our freedoms' on a permanent basis.

As for Peter Hitchens - I took him as an example of the type of person ( who you detailed) acting as 'opposition' and why. And as clearly stated he "has been an anti vaxer" and a high profile one at that - having campaigned against the MMR vaccine in the UK. That he has flip flopped with regard to the Covid vaccine - shows that maybe he has some sense. Though if his anti mask tirades are anyhing to go by - I doubt it.

Here's a tip - don't read the newspapers and if you do - employ a filter to determine what does not stand up to scrutiny. No need to pick individual newspapers. And no the tabloids do not provide an alternative voice against the other newspapers. All newspapers are there to sell stories and advertising. They also like populist stories - though insisting on your right to visit granny (whether granny wants that or otherwise) in the midst of a pandemic - is one of the crazier ones.

As for Russia - it most certainly does not represent any escape from reality. Yer man is correct people in Russia have learned not to "spend their days fearful they might die today, tomorrow, or next week." Why? Because there and up to recent times - the chances of being taken out and summarily shot or killed was very high.

But no I don't believe people in the main are fearful thst they will die. The majority are acting responsibly because of loved ones, family and others.

Try actually living in Russia and see how dissent is handled. As for Sweden - it most certainly is dealing with the issues of people in old people being left to die as part of state policy as opposed to a general **** up as in other EU countries and its disastrous social policy is making many swedes thinking twice about where that County is going. The problem with the US and individual states is that they are only as good as their previous Governor.

Believing that restrictions won't be rolled back when case numbers have reduced and vaccination targets have been met is pure utter lizard people stuff. And as a stream of idiocy that doesn't even deserve futher comment tbh.

Eric Cartman · 06-03-2021 02:19PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so implement austerity like measures, thats helped us a lot during this crisis, hasnt it, particularly our health system!

...and reduce the overall money supply, how is that gonna help the economy?

It didnt hurt us at all, austerity didnt go far enough.

Wanderer78 · 06-03-2021 02:24PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It didnt hurt us at all, austerity didnt go far enough.

please explain how stripping our critical public sectors such as the health system, 'didnt hurt'?

...and bare in mind, reducing the deficit, means reducing the money supply

Eric Cartman · 06-03-2021 02:29PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

please explain how stripping our critical public sectors such as the health system, 'didnt hurt'?

...and bare in mind, reducing the deficit, means reducing the money supply

None of our services shut down, the unions ensured the bloated staff remained, we couldnt implement cuts where needed.
Government spending is not what keeps the economy going , private business and consumer spending is

Mr. Karate · 06-03-2021 02:35PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Right, because being unable to get a bed in a hospital when in urgent need of medical attention is so much a better feeling.

Yeah, because that was NEVER a problem in this Country until Covid happened. :rolleyes:

Wanderer78 · 06-03-2021 02:44PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

None of our services shut down, the unions ensured the bloated staff remained, we couldnt implement cuts where needed.
Government spending is not what keeps the economy going , private business and consumer spending is

....so we made some cuts, which made our public sector more 'efficient', and when a wee virus came along, we had to shut down our economy, so our health system wouldnt crash, are you really sure about your take on things?

im sorry to inform you, but an functioning economy requires both money supplies to grow, i.e. both private sector credit and public sector deficits, an over reliance on one, has a tendency towards major inflationary pressures, as what we ve been experiencing for a long time now, i.e. credit inflating asset markets

06-03-2021 02:46PM

PintOfView wrote: »

I'd probably suggest he holds fire and sees what happens here once the vaccines have been rolled out.

I would expect that once all the elderly and vulnerable have had the vaccine we'll be in a different place,
and a very different place once majority of the population have had it.

But because a precedent has been set the Government could do all of this every year from now on. If the health service is overwhelmed this winter, which will almost certainly be the case, then they'll be able to use the lockdown option. Varadkar was interviewed a couple of months ago and he said that they know what to do about the flu now. He didn't elaborate, but one could see the possibility of lockdowns being used every year from now on. But we'll see.

kippy · 06-03-2021 02:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But because a precedent has been set the Government could do all of this every year from now on. If the health service is overwhelmed this winter, which will almost certainly be the case, then they'll be able to use the lockdown option. Varadkar was interviewed a couple of months ago and he said that they know what to do about the flu now. He didn't elaborate, but one could see the possibility of lockdowns being used every year from now on. But we'll see.

I am assuming that knowing what to do about flu now might be in relation to people having more appreciation for:
Flu vaccines, hand washing, and maybe a bit of distancing. Not necessarily locking down an entire country for the flu virus.
There's no way a government want to 'do this' every year from now on and to suggest it is as daft as it gets tbh. Real tinfoil hat stuff.

06-03-2021 03:01PM

gozunda wrote: »

Not sure you read what was written in context. But no matter.

New Zealand etc are internally restrictions free precisely because they are "locked in". Rights to external travel have been suspended. We've gone a different route along with most of the rest of Europe. Yes weve had restrictions to help keep case numbers though the UK has taken a stronger line overall in restrictions than here.

As stated we're in the middle of a pandemic not some ideological crusade where whether covid exists or not or there's some big conspiracy to deny use 'our freedoms' on a permanent basis.

As for Peter Hitchens - I took him as an example of the type of person ( who you detailed) acting as 'opposition' and why. And as clearly stated he "has been an anti vaxer" and a high profile one at that - having campaigned against the MMR vaccine in the UK. That he has flip flopped with regard to the Covid vaccine - shows that maybe he has some sense. Though if his anti mask tirades are anyhing to go by - I doubt it.

Here's a tip - don't read the newspapers and if you do - employ a filter to determine what does not stand up to scrutiny. No need to pick individual newspapers. And no the tabloids do not provide an alternative voice against the other newspapers. All newspapers are there to sell stories and advertising. They also like populist stories - though insisting on your right to visit granny (whether granny wants that or otherwise) in the midst of a pandemic - is one of the crazier ones.

As for Russia - it most certainly does not represent any escape from reality. Yer man is correct people in Russia have learned not to "spend their days fearful they might die today, tomorrow, or next week." Why? Because there and up to recent times - the chances of being taken out and summarily shot or killed was very high.

But no I don't believe people in the main are fearful thst they will die. The majority are acting responsibly because of loved ones, family and others.

Try actually living in Russia and see how dissent is handled. As for Sweden - it most certainly is dealing with the issues of people in old people being left to die as part of state policy as opposed to a general **** up as in other EU countries and its disastrous social policy is making many swedes thinking twice about where that County is going. The problem with the US and individual states is that they are only as good as their previous Governor.

Believing that restrictions won't be rolled back when case numbers have reduced and vaccination targets have been met is pure utter lizard people stuff. And as a stream of idiocy that doesn't even deserve futher comment tbh.

I never said I believed that restrictions wouldn't be rolled back. I asked what Irish people would be able to do if the government decided to keep restrictions in place indefinitely because of the possibility of future variants. In England the government would be put under pressure. The Covid Recovery Group, which comprises 70 or so MPs, in the Conservative Party would put the government under pressure. Talk Radio would put it under pressure. The Daily Mail would be on its case. The Telegraph. Lord Sumption, whose opinion as a former Supreme Court judge must surely carry weight. Who in Ireland, or what organisation in Ireland, would put pressure on the Irish Government?

I don't think it's 'lizard people stuff'. It's perfectly reasonable for a person to be concerned about the suspension of fundamental freedoms in the light of there being no end date for that suspension. We have no idea when our freedoms might be returned to us. We just hope they will be.

I don't read the papers. That's good advice. I just occasionally glance at them.

I mentioned the issues that Sweden wouldn't have to deal with. Would you agree with me that huge numbers of Irish people are terrified? And would you also agree with me that it will take a long time for that fear to go away?

Eric Cartman · 06-03-2021 03:02PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....so we made some cuts, which made our public sector more 'efficient', and when a wee virus came along, we had to shut down our economy, so our health system wouldnt crash, are you really sure about your take on things?

im sorry to inform you, but an functioning economy requires both money supplies to grow, i.e. both private sector credit and public sector deficits, an over reliance on one, has a tendency towards major inflationary pressures, as what we ve been experiencing for a long time now, i.e. credit inflating asset markets

Inflation has been on the floor, its why interest rates are in negative.

Wanderer78 · 06-03-2021 03:04PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Inflation has been on the floor, its why interest rates are in negative.

yes real economy inflation is, but asset price inflation isnt, far from it in fact! have a guess where all that private sector credit and central bank fiat has gone!

06-03-2021 03:07PM

kippy wrote: »

I am assuming that knowing what to do about flu now might be in relation to people having more appreciation for:
Flu vaccines, hand washing, and maybe a bit of distancing. Not necessarily locking down an entire country for the flu virus.
There's no way a government want to 'do this' every year from now on and to suggest it is as daft as it gets tbh. Real tinfoil hat stuff.

And maybe masks. Would you be happy to be required by law to wear a mask and to socially distance every flu season? Would businesses such as nightclubs and theatres be able to operate properly at reduced capacity? I never said they wanted to, but that the option is now there for them to do so because the idea of locking the country may have become normalised.

Timing belt · 06-03-2021 03:14PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes real economy inflation is, but asset price inflation isnt, far from it in fact! have a guess where all that private sector credit and central bank fiat has gone!

The asset prize inflation you refer to has not been generated by an expansion in private sector credit but by investors chasing yields due to artificially low yields on government debt due to QE.

if the yield on bonds drops from 2% to 0.25% the majority of the money leaves this asset class and goes to another till the yield falls. E.g. money flows into stock market where a higher valuation for a lower return will be accepted generating the price inflation.

kippy · 06-03-2021 03:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And maybe masks. Would you be happy to be required by law to wear a mask and to socially distance every flu season? Would businesses such as nightclubs and theatres be able to operate properly at reduced capacity? I never said they wanted to, but that the option is now there for them to do so because the idea of locking the country may have become normalised.

Washing hands more and taking a vaccine that is already there for flu are two things that are hopefully more obvious for people in the long run.
Personally I don't see much of the population happy to wear a mask but for those that are immuno compromised it has made it more socially acceptable for them to do so if they wish. These are all good things....
I don't see those businesses being asked to operate at reduced capacity tbh once covid is under control.
There's nothing normalised around the restrictions we have had for the past few months or this time last year.

Jim2007 · 06-03-2021 03:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Life is about taking risks. For me personally case numbers wouldn't be a consideration.

And what about the case number for longer term impact of having had that virus.... oh yea, we have no idea.....

Deleted User wrote: »

What would you suggest an Irish guy who owns a pub who wants to emigrate in order to make a living do? Go somewhere where there's no threat of lockdown, which would mean he'd have no livelihood, or opt for somewhere with low numbers but where the threat of lockdown is constant?

A large dose or reality. You can't out run this virus, nor can you expect to do so with any future one that comes along, which is likely. On top of which governments come and go, people's attitudes change, today's lax lockdown areas can be next weeks most restricted areas....

On top of which nine out of ten businesses fail and without local knowledge of the business and the cultured etc the chances failure increases. And then of course there is the person side of the move, the only truly happy ex-pats are the ones that don't have to be there - the ones that move by choice, they rest usually don't stick it.

The idea that you can somehow find somewhere to avoid the virus and life happily ever after is just a wild dream.

Probably the one that would most likely bring happiness - find a new career.

gozunda · 06-03-2021 03:44PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

..

I mentioned the issues that Sweden wouldn't have to deal with. Would you agree with me that huge numbers of Irish people are terrified? And would you also agree with me that it will take a long time for that fear to go away?

No I do not agree that "huge numbers of Irish people are terrified"

Is the majority observing restrictions? Yes I think they are. Are some people not observing restrictions - yes I think they are.

I can understand that there are those of all ages - both young and old - who do face a much higher risk of serious illness and even death who are understandably cautious with regard to catching covid. And those are the people that other people are looking out for when observing our current restrictions.

And again there is no basis in reality for restrictions not to be rolled back once vaccination targets have been met and case numbers can be kept to a minimum.

Jim2007 · 06-03-2021 03:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Would businesses such as nightclubs and theatres be able to operate properly at reduced capacity? I never said they wanted to, but that the option is now there for them to do so because the idea of locking the country may have become normalised.

They may never need to. People's attitudes, believes and behavior changes after something like this. I expect we'll see a drop in urban living all across Europe. Office workers don't need to move to the city, students don't need to be physically present in college and so on.

My daughter started her first job last August working for a consulting engineers and she has never been in their premises. And now the owner has decided based on his experience that he will cut office space by 40% as he really does not need those people on site.

KyussB · 06-03-2021 03:58PM

MouseMan01 wrote: »

The EU or rather the Germanic-Franco axis that seems to pull the strings. Is generally hypersensitive to rampant money printing and the inflationary issues as a result.

I believe German hyperinflation during the Weimar republic era less than 100 years ago was one of the main reasons the German people turned to the Nazis.

The Nazi's printed their way through rearmament and WWII, with MEFO bills:
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/12/philip-pilkington-hjalmar-schacht-mefo-bills-restoration-german-economy-1933-1939.html

06-03-2021 04:07PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

They may never need to. People's attitudes, believes and behavior changes after something like this. I expect we'll see a drop in urban living all across Europe. Office workers don't need to move to the city, students don't need to be physically present in college and so on.

My daughter started her first job last August working for a consulting engineers and she has never been in their premises. And now the owner has decided based on his experience that he will cut office space by 40% as he really does not need those people on site.

Congrats to your daughter. I hope she likes the job.

That's something I've been thinking about. If people continue to work from home then that will impact on small businesses such as cafés and newsagents. It would mean fewer people would be going to those places for a coffee or for lunch. David Solomon, the chief executive of Goldman Sachs called WFH an 'aberration' the other day and said the plan was to get people back in the office as soon as possible: https://www.prdaily.com/goldman-sachs-chief-calls-wfh-an-aberration-zoom-adds-closed-captioning-and-mckinsey-ousts-global-managing-partner/. I imagine there will be companies that go for a mix of WFH and work from the office and others such as Goldman Sachs that don't. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

kippy · 06-03-2021 04:12PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Congrats to your daughter. I hope she likes the job.

That's something I've been thinking about. If people continue to work from home then that will impact on small businesses such as cafés and newsagents. It would mean fewer people would be going to those places for a coffee or for lunch. David Solomon, the chief executive of Goldman Sachs called WFH an 'aberration' the other day and said the plan was to get people back in the office as soon as possible: https://www.prdaily.com/goldman-sachs-chief-calls-wfh-an-aberration-zoom-adds-closed-captioning-and-mckinsey-ousts-global-managing-partner/. I imagine there will be companies that go for a mix of WFH and work from the office and others such as Goldman Sachs that don't. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

It will no doubt effect traditional city centre coffeeshops etc but might increase the business in local communities for coffee and lunches etc. Hard to know where the ups and downs will be.
Maybe these mobile barristas etc will start to take off more and more?
People might also change their habits and spending habits in general.

growleaves · 06-03-2021 04:48PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

They may never need to. People's attitudes, believes and behavior changes after something like this. I expect we'll see a drop in urban living all across Europe. Office workers don't need to move to the city, students don't need to be physically present in college and so on.

My daughter started her first job last August working for a consulting engineers and she has never been in their premises. And now the owner has decided based on his experience that he will cut office space by 40% as he really does not need those people on site.

They do though. Learning from a screen is a poor substitute for a college or university education.

How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

Comments