Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Larbre34 · 02-03-2021 10:03PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Sandymount village could have all of this and more with a bit of forward thinking and a leap of faith.

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

But its entirely incompatible with closing off one direction of the nearest Regional route to avoid the village.

DLR shut down one lane of both Blackrock and Dundrum villages, because both had specific bypass routes. Strand Road is that bypass route for Sandymount.

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

Fighting Tao · 02-03-2021 10:05PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

But its entirely incompatible with closing off one direction of the nearest Regional route to avoid the village.

DLR shut down one lane of both Blackrock and Dundrum villages, because both had specific bypass routes. Strand Road is that bypass route for Sandymount.

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

You are ignoring the other road that bypasses Sandymount...Merrion Road.

buffalo · 02-03-2021 10:09PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

They could and they should. And honestly its what the locals want.

...

The solution for Sandymount, is a single lane village with increased public realm work and a complementary cycle lane on the Promenade of Sandymount strand. What DCC have tried to railroad through satisfies neither of those desires and goes against common sense and an achieveable win-win.

I haven't seen anything showing that any of the local groups are campaigning for the above. All I've seen is a rejection of any changes. Could you show where the locals are asking for this?

Larbre34 · 02-03-2021 10:23PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You are ignoring the other road that bypasses Sandymount...Merrion Road.

I am. Very specifically. Merrion Road isn't a route across the river. Not without going through town. It's not realistically a solution to any of the consequences of the City Council's proposals.

Fighting Tao · 02-03-2021 10:25PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

I am. Very specifically. Merrion Road isn't a route across the river. Not without going through town. It's not realistically a solution to any of the consequences of the City Council's proposals.

From a lot of experience driving from south of Sandymount, it usually quicker to use Merrion Road and cross the river at Samuel Beckett bridge at rush hour than it is to use the East Link. I gave up on the east link after 3.30pm due to the likelihood of taking 1-1.5 hours to get from meririon gate to the 3Arena. More often than not I abandoning the car in Ringsend and came back for the car later in the evening.

First Up · 02-03-2021 10:27PM

CramCycle wrote:

Two things, you did say the rest of it, I had checked in case I was mistaken. The 8 wheeler was in a similar vein but I did not attribute it to you, just pointing out the hysteria some people use, apologies if it sounded like I was, I was attributing all the other hysteria and goal post moving to you though.

Apology accepted but describing anything I have said as hysteria reminds me of the "project fear" tripe from Brexiteers when warned of consequences and we know how that is going for them.

CramCycle wrote:

And yet again, you refuse to do any research, that's not the way traffic works. Your resolute refusal to either look up or listen to others is astounding. Vehicles that have to use that route, will continue to use it, they still can, but many who use it will switch to other modes of transport or other routes, between the two, over time traffic as a whole will reduce. This said, as I pointed out, unlike yourself, I can accept it might not, hence the reason why a 6 month trial is a good idea, I really can't see how you would be against it. If it doesn't work, it goes back or to something else that works better based on knowledge gained.

The plan is to close Strand Rd to all northbound vehicles. What other modes of transport should replace the lorries and vans carrying goods and equipment?

CramCycle wrote:

You, repeatedly, refuse to accept that those vehicles are unlikely to all be going to Sandymount or Blackrock and that most will change their route to a more appropriate route. Then again, you also gave the impression that it didn't carry much traffic like that at all, hard to remember which order you changed your mind in. Going past South Dublin southerly, use the port tunnel and the M50, going North or West, the same.

I'm still waiting on the "more appropriate " route to the East Link. Has DCC estimated how many vehicles, what routes they might use and impact it will make? Have they contingency plans if there are snarl ups? That's called planning but no evidence of it from DCC.

CramCycle wrote:

As someone who drives quite frequently, while the east link would on occasion would have been a direct route for me, I often wouldn't take it at commuting times as the traffic is brutal and you are at the whim of one person not having change at the toll for a 20 minute tailback to become a 40 minute one in a few seconds. It is often just as quick to go into town and across and is typically more predictable. I have used it at night to visit relations in care homes and the traffic was dead but would I be put out about the extra 5 minutes to cross at the Sam Beckett bridge, not at all. This discussion has actually little to do with Cycling and should have went into the C&T forum as its more suited there as the cycle route itself isn't the most important thing about the plan, albeit a nice addition, a single lane contra flow would have been fine for many.

Get a Tag and use the fast lane. It works better than hoping the traffic will go away, which seems to be a big part of the plans for Strand Rd too.

This discussion has to do with cycling because the S2S path is the cause of it. But I agree there might be more realistic discussion elsewhere. Almost anything else would be.

Effects · 02-03-2021 10:35PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

All this saves me about ten thousand euro a year, so switching to a car (or a bus or home delivery) wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 10:40PM

Effects wrote: »

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

Effects · 02-03-2021 10:41PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

From a lot of experience driving from south of Sandymount, it usually quicker to use Merrion Road and cross the river at Samuel Beckett bridge at rush hour than it is to use the East Link.

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

Peregrine · 02-03-2021 10:43PM

Effects wrote: »

Ah here, €10,000 saving a year? I'm not buying that one.

It's the average annual cost of owning and operating a family car in Ireland according to the AA. Not everybody is going to spend that much but it does seem to be the mean when you add everything up.

The AA’s annual survey of motoring costs found that running a family car for a year is €10,593.26, down by €98.11 compared to the previous year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-motoring-4724918-Jul2019/

Effects · 02-03-2021 10:44PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

It just seemed a little high to me. But then I also cycle as much as I can myself anyway. But that doesn't change insurance/tax costs, just fuel.

Fighting Tao · 02-03-2021 10:45PM

Effects wrote: »

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

Fighting Tao · 02-03-2021 10:47PM

Effects wrote: »

I found both to take about the same length of time. But I resented having to pay the East Link toll when it wasn't any quicker.
Beckett bridge is horrible from about 12pm onwards, pre covid. And I always found it faster to just continue and cross at Butt bridge instead.

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

I work with someone from Finglas that would use Butt bridge. For where I was going, it would have meant more doubling back in myself.

02-03-2021 10:52PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably on the high side. That's what's supposed to be the average cost of running a car in Ireland. I spend a few hundred on car trips a year, maximum, and a very small amount on public transport. It certainly saves me thousands a year compared to someone who drives the same trips.

You're not far off

I sold my car last Oct as I ended up perm WFH

I was spending 7,200 a year between car loan, upkeep, tax, insurance, etc on a Hyundai i30

Someone with a bigger engine would pay more tax, higher car payments on a better car and there are def many out there with a longer commute than I had at 25km each way so fuel costs could be way more and lastly factoring in additional upkeep due to longer commutes too.

10,000 eur a year on a car is not that far of a stretch from what I was paying

Its one of the reason I got rid of mine. Until I ended up WFH, I never looked too closely at the costs and only paid heed to the loan payment. It wasn't until I sat down and looked at a years worth of receipts and bank statements that I realised how much it was actually costing me.

On a side note, I signed up for GoCar, Leap card and Share Bikes since dumping the car. Only had to use GoCar 3 times since last Oct and spent 180 eur in total. Use buses and trains now for longer journeys and the bike share for the city stuff.

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 10:55PM

Effects wrote: »

It just seemed a little high to me. But then I also cycle as much as I can myself anyway. But that doesn't change insurance/tax costs, just fuel.

Yeah, might be a little high. I was also basing it somewhat on how much I was able to save a year when I was saving to buy a house, but I don't want to go into details about my finances!

It's probably a little high, but it's not wildly off.

Larbre34 · 02-03-2021 10:58PM

Peregrine wrote: »

It's the average annual cost of owning and operating a family car in Ireland according to the AA. Not everybody is going to spend that much but it does seem to be the mean when you add everything up.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-motoring-4724918-Jul2019/

The median would be more accurate.

I only ever pay cash for used cars every few years, but to get to €10k, you'd have to be paying a high car loan or PCP, a high insurance premium, high road tax and maintenance costs and be burning through 100 quid a week in fuel. I'd be shocked if thats the norm rather than the exception.

Effects · 02-03-2021 11:01PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You can sometimes save 10-15 minutes by turning off the regional road R813 Macken street and use Misery Hill and come back down Sir John Rogersons Quay

Yeah, I've done that a bunch of times, but still found that a bit congested trying to join back up. Haven't they changed the layout somewhat now with the new building there, the Sorting Office?

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 11:01PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The median would be more accurate.

I only ever pay cash for used cars every few years, but to get to €10k, you'd have to be paying a high car loan or PCP, a high insurance premium, high road tax and maintenance costs and be burning through 100 quid a week in fuel. I'd be shocked if thats the norm rather than the exception.

Based on what you're saying, the mean would be higher than the median?

Effects · 02-03-2021 11:05PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's probably a little high, but it's not wildly off.

I guess I don't keep track of total fuel costs. And I have a reliable car, but not brand new, and not paying a loan on it.

I'm a beekeeper, and I also travel to the West a lot, so not having a car doesn't suit me.
But I'm also looking at a cargo bike at the moment, for the journeys that I can't do on my regular bike, but that wouldn't necessitate a car either, if I had the cargo option.

But probably better to get back on topic here!

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 11:06PM

Effects wrote: »

But probably better to get back on topic here!

This was more enjoyable though.

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 11:08PM

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

Peregrine · 02-03-2021 11:32PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

Yeah but you can't go to the Port Tunnel on that. I live in Sandymount and I go to see the Port Tunnel every day. Checkmate.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 11:33PM

Zaney wrote: »

I can’t see Deansgrange happening now they have been forced to look at the traffic impacts in advance. Maybe on one of the alternative routes they are looking at.

The councils update before Christmas was that they were looking at alternate routes but that the Deansgrange route was still on the table along with the others. Looking at the alternatives dosent mean the original plan is dead..

Edit.. I hadn't come across this one before. A quiet way through the cemetery!!

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/walking_cycling_permeability_through_deansgrange_cemetery_0.pdf

magicbastarder · 02-03-2021 11:41PM

i found those AA estimates to be wildly off what it costs me. their lowest and highest insurance costs claimed are €930 and €1800; my insurance is half their minimum.
and their 'garage/parking/misc. expenses' are estimated to be €4,099.29, regardless of what car you drive. and that doesn't seem to take maintenance into account, that's calculated per km driven.
and there's no explanation of how the €4,100 is calculated. which is nearly €100 a week.

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 11:57PM

Yeah, I can't put a very precise figure on it, and I was basing it on a combination of the surprising amount I was able to save per year and the AA estimate, but it's hard to disentangle my multiple cheese-paring strategies. But my annual travel costs were a few hundred. There also would have been opportunity costs to running car for those saving years, as I was able to use the cash saved to buy a house at the bottom of the crash when banks weren't lending money, so if you factor in the appreciation during the recovery, I actually earned tens of thousands for those years I was saving that money, but I fully admit that those were very unusual circumstances.

Also, I'm not going to sell the house, so it's largely a hypothetical "earning".

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 11:57PM

The maintenance per km driven is a good way to calculate things like that, but it has to be over quite a few years to include the occasional very large repair bill. The maintenance per year over the first year is very different from the maintenance per year over ten years. Though not with GoCar.

CramCycle · 03-03-2021 12:01AM

First Up wrote: »

Apology accepted but describing anything I have said as hysteria reminds me of the "project fear" tripe from Brexiteers when warned of consequences and we know how that is going for them.

If they suggested trialling Brexit and that there was actual research that showed it might be a net positive then yes, but in reality no. If you can't discuss the points, I am out. When someone keeps changing the goalposts or the issues when its shown nothing backs them up, then I call it hysteria as its fear mongering without justification. Run the trial and see does it work, simples.

The plan is to close Strand Rd to all northbound vehicles. What other modes of transport should replace the lorries and vans carrying goods and equipment?

Again hysteria, there are several other routes for people who have to get to the front of the Point Depot and realistically, few will be going to just there. It's like you are being wilfully ignorant of the real world.

I'm still waiting on the "more appropriate " route to the East Link. Has DCC estimated how many vehicles, what routes they might use and impact it will make? Have they contingency plans if there are snarl ups? That's called planning but no evidence of it from DCC.

The East Link bridge, no one is trying to go to the bridge, you fail to accept that no one is trying to stop at the far side of the bridge, they are going somewhere, most of these will be easily achievable by alternative routes. Most of the time you would make the port tunnel just as quickly driving up Merrion Road and crossing the Sam Beckett pre covid.

Get a Tag and use the fast lane. It works better than hoping the traffic will go away, which seems to be a big part of the plans for Strand Rd too.

Takes awhile to get to the toll itself if anything fowls up, really am not convinced you have been to the area at all at this point.

This discussion has to do with cycling because the S2S path is the cause of it. But I agree there might be more realistic discussion elsewhere. Almost anything else would be.

A realistic discussion, as all of this, even those who have done a bit of research, is all just postulating. Run the trial, see if it works, if it doesn't it can be returned to the status quo quite quickly or are you really saying a trial to see if it works is a bad idea? Best case scenario you are wrong, worst case I am wrong, at least there would be concrete data to support it or oppose it rather than postulating without a notion.
Either way, I am leaving it there, invoking Brexit or Trump to me is the equivalent of Godwinning a thread and just reeks of desperation not to engage in reasoned discussion. All the best

Effects · 03-03-2021 12:19AM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I do recommend the cargo bike, by the way. Or at least a large trailer. Game changers.

I have an Ikea trailer, and while I like it, I don't use it enough.
I'd prefer to have a dedicated cargo bike, and it would be mainly used for work.

tomasrojo · 03-03-2021 12:23AM

Effects wrote: »

I have an Ikea trailer, and while I like it, I don't use it enough.
I'd prefer to have a dedicated cargo bike, and it would be mainly used for work.

I have a bakfiets cargo bike, a Chariot trailer and a Bike-hod trailer. They're good at different things. The bakfiets is the most versatile -- certainly the only one that can carry people larger than very small children! -- and the trailers the less tiring over long distances. If you're carrying anything that approximates to flat-pack furniture from IKEA, the Chariot trailer is the best for carrying loads that are much longer than wide.

Effects · 03-03-2021 12:47AM

I'm kind of set on getting a Bullitt bike, as I don't really like the look/style/design of most others!

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Comments