Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Thelonious Monk · 02-03-2021 04:58PM

yascaoimhin wrote: »

they might just close the road and make it a cul de sac with an underpass for bikes and people.

lol imagine the uproar

DoraDelite · 02-03-2021 04:59PM

Trudee wrote: »

Actually I was referring to responses to First Up

First Up got valid constructive responses to his/her increasingly wild assertions on journeys from Southside to Northside and did not address any of the responses.

I'm now led to believe that Fáilte Ireland should be touting the East Link as a tourist hotspot as First Up seems to think this is a destination for all Strand Road traffic.

yascaoimhin · 02-03-2021 04:59PM

Trudee wrote: »

Actually I was referring to responses to First Up

My mistake. Apologies.

buffalo · 02-03-2021 05:00PM

First Up wrote: »

The level crossing at Merrion Gates is closed for approx 20 minutes per hour at peak commuting times. Traffic is able to cope with that.

Here's a link to the results of the study - you can tell me what aspects are incorrect: https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/strand-road-trial-cycle-route/results/updateonstrandroadcycleroute.pptx (14MB pptx)

First Up wrote: »

And anyway won't loads of those evil cars just evaporate as they are supposed to?

Have you ever experienced slow Internet as opposed to no Internet? With no Internet, people go find something else to do. With slow Internet, people keep using it, but just get increasingly frustrated.

You might also observe this phenomenon at rush hour on any number of congested roads across Dublin, as frustrated drivers get angry because their progress is so slow.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 05:02PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think people have been making fun of you, but that is because your ideas are inconsistent and poorly thought through, and apparently don't even have the benefit of local knowledge.

I don't have much local knowledge of this issue either, but I haven't commented on that aspect, while you've been about two days at it now.

I have extensive local knowledge of Strand Road having cycled it 10 times a week for 15 years and driving it about 4 or 6 times a week at present. I think Ted1 on here has similar experience. However I doubt we even have an idea what will happen if we go ahead with cycle lanes. And I doubt if anyone else does either. All we have are some metrics from DCC with regard to projected traffic volumes in the surrounding areas.
Hence the really good idea for a 6 month trial!!

First Up · 02-03-2021 05:06PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think people have been making fun of you, but that is because your ideas are inconsistent and poorly thought through, and apparently don't even have the benefit of local knowledge.

I don't have much local knowledge of this issue either, but I haven't commented on that aspect, while you've been about two days at it now.

I hope they are enjoying themselves 'cos I am, but which bits of my posts are inconsistent?

I am pointing out the negative consequences of closing Strand Rd to inbound traffic and I get a kaleidoscope of weird responses. Its hard to respond to those without visiting a few of the distant planets my adversaries seem to inhabit.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 05:17PM

First Up wrote: »

I hope they are enjoying themselves 'cos I am, but which bits of my posts are inconsistent?

I am pointing out the negative consequences of closing Strand Rd to inbound traffic and I get a kaleidoscope of weird responses. Its hard to respond to those without visiting a few of the distant planets my adversaries seem to inhabit.

But you don't know what the negative consequences are.. You can only guess. No more than I know what the positive consequences will be. I can only guess too.
A 6 month trial would give us the answers.

Suffice to say that government transport policy worldwide is to reduce or eliminate private car use in cities so you are going to be fighting a rearguard action for the foreseeable future..

First Up · 02-03-2021 05:33PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

But you don't know what the negative consequences are.. You can only guess. No more than I know what the positive consequences will be. I can only guess too.
A 6 month trial would give us the answers.

Suffice to say that government transport policy worldwide is to reduce or eliminate private car use in cities so you are going to be fighting a rearguard action for the foreseeable future..

Of course a trial would help but it matters what they are trialing. Shutting Strand Rd to in bound traffic without any apparent steps to deal with consequences is neither planning or trialing. Its abdicating responsibility and a genuflection to ideology.

A six month trial over the summer will give a picture of cyclist traffic and I expect and hope the path is widely used. That's great but what measures will be taken of the impact on others, from people with business in the port to kids on tricycles in Sandymount? From the DCC CEO's dismissive and flippant remarks (true to form) I suspect they won't give a hoot.

I hope the action by Mannix Flynn (let's all BOO) puts manners on Keegan and better still, prompts ways to be found to subject his cavalier attitude to scrutiny and checks.

02-03-2021 05:35PM

I don't get why people assume being in favour blocking off one road would mean you are in favour of more traffic in another area?

Sandymount could be much improved if traffic was discouraged from entering the residential streets and village center, parking removed and traffic calming measures introduced.

At the moment the village green often looks like a dumping ground for SUVs. The status quo is a helluva drug.

First Up · 02-03-2021 05:39PM

ronoc wrote: »

I don't get why people assume being in favour blocking off one road would mean you are in favour of more traffic in another area?

Its not that they are in favour of it. Its just that they either haven't thought about it, or don't care either way.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 05:45PM

First Up wrote: »

Of course a trial would help but it matters what they are trialing. Shutting Strand Rd to in bound traffic without any apparent steps to deal with consequences is neither planning or trialing. Its abdicating responsibility and a genuflection to ideology.

A six month trial over the summer will give a picture of cyclist traffic and I expect and hope the path is widely used. That's great but what measures will be taken of the impact on others, from people with business in the port to kids on tricycles in Sandymount? From the DCC CEO's dismissive and flippant remarks (true to form) I suspect they won't give a hoot.

I hope the action by Mannix Flynn (let's all BOO) puts manners on Keegan and better still, prompts ways to be found to subject his cavalier attitude to scrutiny and checks.

But the trial needs to be inexpensive (relatively), implemented quickly and discontinued quickly if required. The other suggestions such as boardwalks and promenade extensions would be very slow to implement and extremely expensive so not ideal for a short trial.. So the Strand road cycle lane proposal is ideal to try out for a short period.
I know you will say it is not comparable but the Blackrock to Sandycove cycle lane is being trialled on the same basis. The resistance to it was huge initially but only a small minority of people now would appear to be still opposed to it and it seems to be extremely successful.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2021 06:00PM

First Up wrote: »

Compared to the abuse thrown at me I am handing out daisy chains.

If you feel that you have been given abuse then feel free to report the offending post by clicking the

image to the left of the post.

However, I'd refrain from using this kind of terminology if you plan on using the abuse card...

First Up wrote: »

Its hard to respond to those without visiting a few of the distant planets my adversaries seem to inhabit.

First Up · 02-03-2021 06:00PM

Seaswimmer wrote:

But the trial needs to be inexpensive (relatively), implemented quickly and discontinued quickly if required. The other suggestions such as boardwalks and promenade extensions would be very slow to implement and extremely expensive so not ideal for a short trial.. So the Strand road cycle lane proposal is ideal to try out for a short period. I know you will say it is not comparable but the Blackrock to Sandycove cycle lane is being trialled on the same basis. The resistance to it was huge initially but only a small minority of people now would appear to be still opposed to it and it seems to be extremely successful.

But the trial has to check what matters, not just count bicycles. The current plan will impact a lot of things over a wide area. The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

Blackrock to Sandycove is in the outer suburbs with little affect on commercial activity or traffic volume. Strand Rd is much more complicated.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2021 06:04PM

First Up wrote: »

But the trial has to check what matters, not just count bicycles. The current plan will impact a lot of things over a wide area. The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

A boardwalk would need to have its potential impact assessed via an EIA. Clontarf is a completely different layout and isn;t an equal comparison.
As for a boardwalk not impacting the roads, this possibly isn't quite true. Assuming more people use it then access points for the boardwalk would require slight adjustments to the road. You also then have a large conflict point at the level crossing.

tomasrojo · 02-03-2021 06:05PM

First Up wrote: »

The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the boardwalk will be made of, what is the underlying substrate, and how will it be made stable?

First Up · 02-03-2021 06:26PM

Seth Brundle wrote:

However, I'd refrain from using this kind of terminology if you plan on using the abuse card...

Thanks for the advice Seth.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 07:14PM

First Up wrote: »

But the trial has to check what matters, not just count bicycles. The current plan will impact a lot of things over a wide area. The boardwalk doesn't need trialing because like Clontarf, it doesn't impact on the roads.

Blackrock to Sandycove is in the outer suburbs with little affect on commercial activity or traffic volume. Strand Rd is much more complicated.

Not quite. Dun Laoire is a major commercial centre. The road from Sandycove to Blackrock is the N31 from Dun Laoire onwards (R831 from Sandycove to Dun Laoire) Anyone living in the area can tell you how busy that coastal route is. In fact it was a major commuting route pre Covid to bring people to the Frascati Road/Rock Road and into town. And it still serves this purpose except that unlike Strand Road the direction is reversed so motorists take a detour on the way out from town as opposed to into town.
You should really try and look at the historical debates on the Blackrock> Sandycove cycle lane. All the same arguments that you are using were used. Traffic will divert to side roads, motorists will rat run through estates, people won't be able to get to Blackrock/Dun Laoire/Monkstown, journey times will increase, trucks will be going through the villages.
None of this has happened. The local villages are thriving (Covid not withstanding). Families, elderly and people who would never normally cycle are out and about using the new facilities and spending money in their local area.

breezy1985 · 02-03-2021 07:25PM

Why not build the cycle now on the existing road and then we can start ripping up the promenade for another general road lane after

BabysCoffee · 02-03-2021 07:28PM

Monday's episode of Nationwide certainly made the case for an immediate cycleway in Sandyford

https://www.rte.ie/player/series/nationwide/SI0000001172?epguid=IH000400570

CramCycle · 02-03-2021 07:43PM

First Up wrote: »

And anyway won't loads of those evil cars just evaporate as they are supposed to?

Have you not googled this yet or do you not know how too?

First Up wrote: »

Its not that they are in favour of it. Its just that they either haven't thought about it, or don't care either way.

Locals, as a former one and as some posters here have pointed out, they are regular users of the area, they have thought it through. It is frustrating that you keep talking about Heavy Commercial traffic going through the village, without realising, that isn't where that traffic would logically go, but when this was pointed out you said heavy amounts of smaller commercial traffic, then it was SUVs, then it was locals who apparently visit the port on a daily basis. I think at one point there was talk of 8 wheelers gaining speed, taking a hard turn without losing momentum and barrelling through Sandymount Green. Dear Lord, you couldn't drive through Sandymount when its empty at speed, let alone at commuter times. Most locals will hop on the DART for anything near town at commuter times, some I know simply walk it, as its far quicker.

I'll say it once more, to see do you get it, a one way system, forget the bike lane, is a really good idea for the area. A 6 month trial was an even better idea as unlike you apparently, most can accept that it might not work out the way people who have done some research into it might expect.

I wouldn't like them to have made it permanent right off the bat. Often, and if you read up on it you will see, traffic evaporation can take a small bit of time to occur, rarely 6 months, normally just a few weeks, and then you can assess if other changes need to be made. I think Labrer34 made some good points about the Ped crossing at Merrion Road, and it would be needed to see what adjustments to traffic signals and flow might be needed elsewhere or if it is a bad idea, maybe the 5 axle ban alone would be a good start. Even simpler, make the East Link for those at the depot/industry area only just across the bridge only in the northern direction.

First Up · 02-03-2021 08:04PM

CramCycle wrote:

Locals, as a former one and as some posters here have pointed out, they are regular users of the area, they have thought it through. It is frustrating that you keep talking about Heavy Commercial traffic going through the village, without realising, that isn't where that traffic would logically go, but when this was pointed out you said heavy amounts of smaller commercial traffic, then it was SUVs, then it was locals who apparently visit the port on a daily basis. I think at one point there was talk of 8 wheelers gaining speed, taking a hard turn without losing momentum and barrelling through Sandymount Green. Dear Lord, you couldn't drive through Sandymount when its empty at speed, let alone at commuter times. Most locals will hop on the DART for anything near town at commuter times, some I know simply walk it, as its far quicker.

If you are going to criticise posts, please have the courtesy to check who posted them. I never said anything about 8 wheelers barreling anywhere.

The traffic that will be prevented using Strand Rd is the traffic you see on it today. I have driven, walked and run on it for quite a few years so I have a good idea the sort of vehicles that will be displaced. That includes private cars, delivery vans, oil tankers and tradesmen. Not all are heavy but some are and they are numerous. I don't know what routes they will use but more importantly neither does DCC and judging from Keegan's comments, they don't care. That is simply unacceptable.

Dublin port is a major storage and distribution centre, not just a harbour. Vehicles of various sizes collect and deliver goods there every day and a large number go via the East Link. I have asked several posters what route they should take to get there instead of Strand Rd and I have yet to get an answer.

I know this is a cycling forum, populated by cyclists but if some of you took off your helmets and goggles for a minute, you might see more than the road in front of you.

Larbre34 · 02-03-2021 08:05PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Not quite. Dun Laoire is a major commercial centre. The road from Sandycove to Blackrock is the N31 from Dun Laoire onwards (R831 from Sandycove to Dun Laoire) Anyone living in the area can tell you how busy that coastal route is. In fact it was a major commuting route pre Covid to bring people to the Frascati Road/Rock Road and into town. And it still serves this purpose except that unlike Strand Road the direction is reversed so motorists take a detour on the way out from town as opposed to into town.
You should really try and look at the historical debates on the Blackrock> Sandycove cycle lane. All the same arguments that you are using were used. Traffic will divert to side roads, motorists will rat run through estates, people won't be able to get to Blackrock/Dun Laoire/Monkstown, journey times will increase, trucks will be going through the villages.
None of this has happened. The local villages are thriving (Covid not withstanding). Families, elderly and people who would never normally cycle are out and about using the new facilities and spending money in their local area.

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 08:31PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

CramCycle · 02-03-2021 08:31PM

First Up wrote: »

If you are going to criticise posts, please have the courtesy to check who posted them. I never said anything about 8 wheelers barreling anywhere.

Two things, you did say the rest of it, I had checked in case I was mistaken. The 8 wheeler was in a similar vein but I did not attribute it to you, just pointing out the hysteria some people use, apologies if it sounded like I was, I was attributing all the other hysteria and goal post moving to you though.

The traffic that will be prevented using Strand Rd is the traffic you see on it today. I have driven, walked and run on it for quite a few years so I have a good idea the sort of vehicles that will be displaced. That includes private cars, delivery vans, oil tankers and tradesmen. Not all are heavy but some are and they are numerous. I don't know what routes they will use but more importantly neither does DCC and judging from Keegan's comments, they don't care. That is simply unacceptable.

And yet again, you refuse to do any research, that's not the way traffic works. Your resolute refusal to either look up or listen to others is astounding. Vehicles that have to use that route, will continue to use it, they still can, but many who use it will switch to other modes of transport or other routes, between the two, over time traffic as a whole will reduce. This said, as I pointed out, unlike yourself, I can accept it might not, hence the reason why a 6 month trial is a good idea, I really can't see how you would be against it. If it doesn't work, it goes back or to something else that works better based on knowledge gained.

Dublin port is a major storage and distribution centre, not just a harbour. Vehicles of various sizes collect and deliver goods there every day and a large number go via the East Link. I have asked several posters what route they should take to get there instead of Strand Rd and I have yet to get an answer.

You, repeatedly, refuse to accept that those vehicles are unlikely to all be going to Sandymount or Blackrock and that most will change their route to a more appropriate route. Then again, you also gave the impression that it didn't carry much traffic like that at all, hard to remember which order you changed your mind in. Going past South Dublin southerly, use the port tunnel and the M50, going North or West, the same.

I know this is a cycling forum, populated by cyclists but if some of you took off your helmets and goggles for a minute, you might see more than the road in front of you.

As someone who drives quite frequently, while the east link would on occasion would have been a direct route for me, I often wouldn't take it at commuting times as the traffic is brutal and you are at the whim of one person not having change at the toll for a 20 minute tailback to become a 40 minute one in a few seconds. It is often just as quick to go into town and across and is typically more predictable. I have used it at night to visit relations in care homes and the traffic was dead but would I be put out about the extra 5 minutes to cross at the Sam Beckett bridge, not at all. This discussion has actually little to do with Cycling and should have went into the C&T forum as its more suited there as the cycle route itself isn't the most important thing about the plan, albeit a nice addition, a single lane contra flow would have been fine for many.

What have you against the 6 month trial other than fear it might show it in a positive light?

CramCycle · 02-03-2021 08:36PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

I've actually went that way for the first time in years, my only complaint is the place is heaving with pedestrians and cyclists. I mean jammers, in all my years in Dublin, only the centre of Dublin city has as many pedestrians using it. You know what else, very few cars. It is the oddest thing, how did they all get there? I'd say local small businesses have to be over the moon with the changes, maybe I am wrong.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 08:47PM

CramCycle wrote: »

I've actually went that way for the first time in years, my only complaint is the place is heaving with pedestrians and cyclists. I mean jammers, in all my years in Dublin, only the centre of Dublin city has as many pedestrians using it. You know what else, very few cars. It is the oddest thing, how did they all get there? I'd say local small businesses have to be over the moon with the changes, maybe I am wrong.

No. I think you are correct. Some of the old issues are still there however. For example the seafront and Peoples Park area of Dun Laoire is doing really well but the Main Street is struggling. The villages of Dalkey, Glasthule, Monkstown and Blackrock all seem to be busy with lots of footfall. Dundrum also although I am not terribly familiar with that scheme. DLR council despite all the criticism has done pretty well during Covid in prioritising walking and cycling. Lots of cycle lanes have been widened, markings have been improved and village schemes to calm traffic have been introduced. Picnic tables, seating and planters have been installed in a lot of areas and are used constantly, despite the old fears we all have of Irish weather.
Sandymount village could have all of this and more with a bit of forward thinking and a leap of faith.

ted1 · 02-03-2021 08:57PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Still plenty of griping in Monkstown about congestion as a result. Will be very interesting to see how that plays out when traffic levels return to normal, or should I say a new normal. But the return to full capacity of schools will be significant enough as there are a few sizeable ones in that locale.

My kids go to one of them, there’s a huge increase in the amount arriving by bike and scooter. The CMR is playing a blinder. And that’s just from a primary school. The residents are much happier with the reduction in drop offs.

Zaney · 02-03-2021 08:58PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

But griping is all it is.. The agenda from the initial objectors now seems to be
"Well its ok now but wait until X,Y or Z happens" I know you post regularly on the DL forum (as I do) but you have to admit that despite a few minor issues initially that the scheme has been a success overall..

I’m very very local and it is more than griping in my daily experience. The traffic on the alternative routes can be really awful. If you cycle in any other direction other than the coast road, motorists are obviously frustrated and give you little room. I have stopped cycling with my kids on other roads because of increased traffic volumes and driver aggression (now they are very young, so it honestly wouldn’t take much). So it limits our cycling options, but the ones we have are really really brilliant. Ups and downs is my personal view.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are also huge advantages. Coast road is so quiet and pleasant to walk/cycle. On dry days the crowds flock which has obvious benefits for business.

But some people are suffering, which could’ve been mitigated with some wider traffic management in my opinion. Local rat runs which I use myself are definitely busier. It is not all happy faces or nimbyism.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 09:07PM

Zaney wrote: »

I’m very very local and it is more than griping in my daily experience. The traffic on the alternative routes can be really awful. If you cycle in any other direction other than the coast road, motorists are obviously frustrated and give you little room. I have stopped cycling with my kids on other roads because of increased traffic volumes and driver aggression (now they are very young, so it honestly wouldn’t take much). So it limits our cycling options, but the ones we have are really really brilliant. Ups and downs is my personal view.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are also huge advantages. Coast road is so quiet and pleasant to walk/cycle. On dry days the crowds flock which has obvious benefits for business.

But some people are suffering, which could’ve been mitigated with some wider traffic management in my opinion. Local rat runs which I use myself are definitely busier. It is not all happy faces or nimbyism.

I agree but there are further plans (of which you are no doubt aware) to expand the cycling infrastructure with 3 new routes. For example if the routes come to fruition I could in theory cycle from Deansgrange to Blackrock, Monkstown Dun Laoghaire and Killiney (and points between) on completely segregated or safe routes. Not an issue for me either way to cycle on the road but for people like yourself with young children I think over time you will nearly be able to get everywhere you want on segregated or safe cycling infrastructure..

Zaney · 02-03-2021 09:20PM

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I agree but there are further plans (of which you are no doubt aware) to expand the cycling infrastructure with 3 new routes. For example if the routes come to fruition I could in theory cycle from Deansgrange to Blackrock, Monkstown Dun Laoghaire and Killiney (and points between) on completely segregated or safe routes. Not an issue for me either way to cycle on the road but for people like yourself with young children I think over time you will nearly be able to get everywhere you want on segregated or safe cycling infrastructure..

I can’t see Deansgrange happening now they have been forced to look at the traffic impacts in advance. Maybe on one of the alternative routes they are looking at.

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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