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What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    We can be hugely critical of the state online, but I think the Irish relationship with authority is very much one of ownership of said authority.

    France has huge issues with conspiracy theories online merging with anti-government feelings and also a far more authoritarian approach to government, which is quite top down and only responds during elections. There were regular riots every weekend for the last few years.

    They have an electoral system which runs in two rounds: so in round 1 you’ve all the candidates, that whittles down to the top two candidates, who have a run off in the second round a week later.

    The problem with that is you end up with Marine Le Pen, who in reality will only ever commands maybe 25% and a candidate like Macron who also will only in reality also only commands about 25%, but because he’s the least worst option, he borrows the votes of people who would never vote for him if she wasn’t the only alternative.

    So basically you end up with a deeply unpopular president, only elected because he’s less unpleasant a choice than Le Pen, and who has borrowed the votes of a vast range of people who are largely on the left, socialists, green etc and can’t stand him. Then he tries to implement a pro business agenda, without any need to reflect on any kind of proportional representation democracy or coalition etc and he ends up walking into clash after clash with people protesting.

    I remember people voting for Chirac in the second round (against Le Pens father) and casting their votes wearing large rubber gloves as a symbolic protest!

    If you then bring in an intangible virus as the threat and the government starts imposing lockdowns, all those people who don’t trust the state in the first place all suddenly falsely conclude that it’s a conspiracy theory and an excuse to quash the protests with draconian curbs on mass gatherings etc and that’s just the rational ones. You’ve another cohort who think they’re being spied on by their smart meters (there were mass protest against these) or that there’s some plan to inject them with mind control chips etc etc

    Then to make it worse the was a vaccine scandal in France a couple of decades ago which shattered confidence in the state and vaccines.

    We have people on here who keep praising the French for their protesting against the government. They only protest because they feel they’re voiceless and have an electoral system that doesn’t produce a reflection of public opinion.

    If you go back before 2000 the presidential term was 7 years, so there was a sense that street protest was the only way of getting heard, and arguably it was true too.

    All of the above in recent years has fed into a broader anti government sentiment and that’s blended with all sorts of modern conspiracy theories about everything you can think of, which is where you’re getting an element of the gilet jaune / yellow vest movement, which can be so broad it’s hard to define.

    Anyway, all I’m saying really is what’s going on in France with this was inevitable and the AstraZeneca fight just added a “see! I told you!!” narrative to the conspiracy theories.

    I’d also add our lockdowns were largely enforced with public buy in. They were and are long, but they’re not harshly enforced. In France you literally had to fill a form in to walk the dog at one stage & the Spanish lockdown included not being able to leave your house, even for exercise.

    This narrative online here that we have had the strictest lockdown in Europe is really not accurate. We’ve had a relatively conservative approach, but with largely self policed, public buy in and not cops walking around the place looking menacing, which has been the case in plenty of European countries.

    Also look at Hungary! Despite all the ranting and raving (including on Irish Internet forums) about Russian vaccines, they’ve fallen to the bottom of the league table for rollout. The problems aren’t supply. They’re public trust and ability to deliver the shots efficiently.

    If they don’t build public trust again in quite a few continental counties, there’s a very significant possibility of the situation dragging on and on with variants emerging as they won’t be able to get the vaccines rolled out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,749 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Aegir wrote: »
    Doesn’t the J&J vaccine have a lower level of efficacy than AZ?

    No, it appears to have higher efficacy on previous variants, and good efficacy on the newer variants (again, the data on AZ for newer variants is missing at the moment, or mixed in with mRNA data making it difficult to determine).

    AZ has been such a small supply for the EU so far (and will continue to be due to their production mismanagement) that it really isn't yet a big part of the "shots not administered" % in some countries, where there is vaccine hesitancy.

    We're lucky in the UK and Ireland that vaccines have been a daily part of my, and anti-vax loons and politicians get shot down pretty quickly (Eugene Murphy, Marc McSharry, Michael Fitzmaurice, Danny Healy-Rae, Brendan Griffin, Liadh Ní Riada, Violet-Anne Wynne).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭embraer170


    Honestly it is like watching a car crash in slow motion. 75% of France's over 70's have not recieved 1 dose.

    What about Ireland?
    The only non health care workers receiving doses right now are 85+.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,749 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    embraer170 wrote: »
    What about Ireland?
    The only non health care workers receiving doses right now are 85+.

    Care homes are also done (barring those which had active outbreaks).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    They key test here will be the mass rollout phase in the big centres and ensuring it keeps flowing to GPs &’pharmacies as the campaign ramps up.

    We probably should try to follow Denmark on really, really ramping up the bandwidth and attempting to get it done by June. We might miss the target (as might they) if there’s any supply glitch, but it’s worth trying it.

    The cost trade off is probably worth it.

    1. Economy back to something more like normal sooner.
    2. Social impact reduced - deaths, illness, access to education, general stress & turmoil.
    3. Ireland’s reputation as a place to base business improves.
    4. Our economic situation would be strengthened by being and being seen to be able to manage this calmly and successfully.

    Maxing this out here is very important and I genuinely think we have everyone on the same team on this - all the political parties are on the basically same page (even if reading different parts of it) the public wants it to happen as quickly as possible and it should work very smoothly if we all just get on with it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    Preliminary results from Scottish vaccination effort. Astrazeneca reduced risk of hospitalisation by 94%. This was from a cohort of 490,000 including all adult ages

    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n523



    This morning Canada approved Astrazeneca for all adult ages

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astra-zeneca-covid-19-health-canada-1.5929079


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Preliminary results from Scottish vaccination effort. Astrazeneca reduced risk of hospitalisation by 94%. This was from a cohort of 490,000 including all adult ages

    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n523



    This morning Canada approved Astrazeneca for all adult ages

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astra-zeneca-covid-19-health-canada-1.5929079

    Even Canada, as well as Australia, EMA, WHO and 30 other countries. They all must be mad i tell ya.

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,749 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Preliminary results from Scottish vaccination effort. Astrazeneca reduced risk of hospitalisation by 94%. This was from a cohort of 490,000 including all adult ages

    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n523



    This morning Canada approved Astrazeneca for all adult ages

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astra-zeneca-covid-19-health-canada-1.5929079

    Was posted a few days ago, unfortunately still missing key data for AZ (but says results are encouraging):

    "Asked whether the results provided reassurance that the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine was effective in older age groups, despite lack of clinical trial data, and supported the decisions by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and European Medicines Agency to approve it for all age groups, lead researcher Aziz Sheikh, director of the University of Edinburgh’s Usher Institute, said the results in older age groups were “very encouraging.” But, he added, “At the moment we’ve not had the statistical power to do a stratified analysis.”"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    First case of UK variant found in France at the end of December.

    An increase of 70 counties up from 40 last week higher than 30%

    33 now over 50%

    https://twitter.com/nicolasberrod/status/1365035022546329607

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭deeperlearning


    The UK could easily find itself in a similar position.

    With an AstraZeneca vaccine only 10-20% effective against the SA variant, the variant could take hold in the space of a few weeks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    The UK could easily find itself in a similar position.

    With an AstraZeneca vaccine only 10-20% effective against the SA variant, the variant could take hold in the space of a few weeks.

    Have Pfizer tested their's as a single dose only on the SA strain?
    Just looking at the Scottish data (which I can barely understand), the efficacy with Pfizer drops from 85% (28-34 days after first dose) to 64% 42+ days later.
    There would be people in the UK that had a single Pfizer jab over 80 days ago I'd say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭Tyrone212


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Have Pfizer tested their's as a single dose only on the SA strain?
    Just looking at the Scottish data (which I can barely understand), the efficacy with Pfizer drops from 85% (28-34 days after first dose) to 64% 42+ days later.
    There would be people in the UK that had a single Pfizer jab over 80 days ago I'd say.

    Off the top of my head there was a study issued roughly three weeks ago. 1 dose was effective in the under 80s. Over 80s needed 2 doses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Tyrone212 wrote: »
    Off the top of my head there was a study issued roughly three weeks ago. 1 dose was effective in the under 80s. Over 80s needed 2 doses.

    Must be a different report, the Scottish report breaks down the figures for the different periods after 1st dose between Pfizer and AZ, but the age breakdown uses a combined AZ & Pfizer group, so it's impossible to see how each vaccine differs per age group.

    65-79 age group combined efficacy (AZ & Pfizer) in reducing hospitalizations is only 8% with massive CI (-46 to 86) after 42+ days.
    I'll admit I find it very hard to have a basic understanding of the data, but certainly looks like delaying the Pfizer 2nd dose past 42 days and especially in over 65's looks like a bad idea.

    The AZ looks good up to 34 days, but there's a drop off in data, but I'm sure the phase 3 trials had all that data


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    The UK could easily find itself in a similar position.

    With an AstraZeneca vaccine only 10-20% effective against the SA variant, the variant could take hold in the space of a few weeks.

    So I take it from your analysis that 90% of those vaccinated with AZ and exposed to the South African variant will end up in hospital with severe symptoms or dead?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    So I take it from your analysis that 90% of those vaccinated with AZ and exposed to the South African variant will end up in hospital with severe symptoms or dead?

    They should have been hammering home the efficacy is linked to hospital or severe illness with the vaccines. So far they are looking as close to 100% protection against death, and extremely high with prevention vs hospitalizations.
    People see 10% efficiency as assume it's like 10% chance of death or hospitalization, rather than it being a percent of that 10%.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    They should have been hammering home the efficacy is linked to hospital or severe illness with the vaccines. So far they are looking as close to 100% protection against death, and extremely high with prevention vs hospitalizations.
    People see 10% efficiency as assume it's like 10% chance of death or hospitalization, rather than it being a percent of that 10%.

    The definition of efficacy seems to be very fluid.

    The metric that should be focused on is the rate of severe illness with hospitalisation and deaths.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    And also why the refusal to extrapolate research findings on efficacy?

    Can anyone give me an example of other vaccines that are available to the general adult population but not indicated for those >64 years of age?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    And also why the refusal to extrapolate research findings on efficacy?

    Can anyone give me an example of other vaccines that are available to the general adult population but not indicated for those >64 years of age?

    All Covid vaccines are new, so the data is behind. I'm sure in time all Covid vaccines will have tighter CI for all age groups.

    As for vaccines not indicated (you have to remember, in Ireland, if you are over 70 and you cannot get an mRNA vaccine within 3 weeks, they recommend the AZ and a second dose after 4 weeks. It's not banned for 70+)
    Yellow fever would be a vaccine where the risks of taking it over 60 would be a lot higher than under 60. But seems to lie with the doctor's decision. But that's more about safety than efficacy.

    It's safe to give a ticktac to a 60+ old, but it may not be efficient in preventing covid. Well, I can't say it's not efficient, I just cant say it's efficient.
    That was the basis for the decision in Ireland. Yes the tictac was an extreme example. But lacking data from the trials it's best to air on the side of caution.

    The WHO approved AZ for 65+, but only because they have no other viable vaccine to distribute. They basically said it's better than nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Even Canada, as well as Australia, EMA, WHO and 30 other countries. They all must be mad i tell ya.
    Had AZ included a lot more older people nobody would be keeping tabs on this. Countries have choices, they are not right or wrong just different. That we have feck all AZ supply is another telling factor, as it turns out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Wolf359f wrote: »

    The WHO approved AZ for 65+, but only because they have no other viable vaccine to distribute. They basically said it's better than nothing.

    That's really searching hard for a negative spin to make up.

    As vaccines go the Astra Zeneca one has been shown in trials and from real life use data to be remarkably effective.

    You are pretending that it's some thrown together product.

    Why, who knows or cares frankly.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Had AZ included a lot more older people nobody would be keeping tabs on this. Countries have choices, they are not right or wrong just different. That we have feck all AZ supply is another telling factor, as it turns out.

    It's political at this stage, 1.5mn AZ vaccines alone in storage in Germany.

    Most of the EU has as much of all vaccines in storage as administered. The biggest 3 are the least concerned with rollout.

    There are problems with the Astra Zeneca supply but the vaccination rollout in the EU's biggest problem is a lack of organization and urgency.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Danzy wrote: »
    It's political at this stage, 1.5mn AZ vaccines alone in storage in Germany.

    Most of the EU has as much of all vaccines in storage as administered. The biggest 3 are the least concerned with rollout.

    There are problems with the Astra Zeneca supply but the vaccination rollout in the EU's biggest problem is a lack of organization and urgency.
    Yeah, in many countries it all seems pretty ramshackle and little more than just fire vaccines into arms immediately. Ours seems a lot more measured and organised in comparison and they have managed the expectations better. The EU will take the AZ ordered, but I see a lot of countries looking at J&J and others instead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Yeah, in many countries it all seems pretty ramshackle and little more than just fire vaccines into arms immediately. Ours seems a lot more measured and organised in comparison and they have managed the expectations better. The EU will take the AZ ordered, but I see a lot of countries looking at J&J and others instead.

    Unfortunately that means most of the EU is waiting months to vaccinate enough.

    Germany is committed to the EU's highly unambitious 70% of adults vaccinated by September target

    That's the bulk of 2 years on the economic floor for a lot of people.

    Hopefully luck will be on their side and the Spring weather will lessen transmission.

    We'll easily beat the EU target, same supply constraints but the will is there to use it.

    The Kent variant is surging in France and probably elsewhere in Europe, the lack of genomic analysis being the blind Spot. March and April may well be their version of our January.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    The Standing Vaccination Commission (Stiko) wants to change its recommendation on the vaccine from the British-Swedish manufacturer Astrazeneca quickly. There will be "a new, updated recommendation very soon,"

    https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Impfkommission-plant-Astrazeneca-Anderung-article22390143.html

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,749 ✭✭✭✭astrofool



    Is the data driving this in the articles? (first is behind a paywall, second is in German).


  • Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The GPs were vaccinated a few weeks ago in Dublin. I wonder what vaccine they choose?

    Edit. I see the GPs were vaccinated in January with Moderna.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Danzy wrote:
    It's political at this stage, 1.5mn AZ vaccines alone in storage in Germany.
    Untrue.

    It's not political in Germany at all.
    It's a trust issue and conservative approach.

    Trust - AZ ha proven itself to be not trustable company, not honouring commitments, giving preference to the other parties under political pressure, applied late to the EMA etc.

    Conservative approach - there were and still are issues with the data, it's not stupid from the Germans to be guarded and prefer their own quality vaccine Biontech and Curevac, or the US Moderna, JJ or Novavax which don't have any such issues with data or potential efficacy issues.

    1.5 vaccines is only 750k population fully vaccinated which is only 0.9% of the German population. That's insignificant (for them). Context is important.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    McGiver wrote: »
    Untrue.

    It's not political in Germany at all.
    It's a trust issue and conservative approach.

    Trust - AZ ha proven itself to be not trustable company, not honouring commitments, giving preference to the other parties under political pressure, applied late to the EMA etc.

    Conservative approach - there were and still are issues with the data, it's not stupid from the Germans to be guarded and prefer their own quality vaccine Biontech and Curevac, or the US Moderna, JJ or Novavax which don't have any such issues with data or potential efficacy issues.

    1.5 vaccines is only 750k population fully vaccinated which is only 0.9% of the German population. That's insignificant (for them). Context is important.

    You should wipe about 20% off your count for the population as nobody is vaccinating under 18s yet, except for some 16 year olds with underlying conditions.

    If there is a trust in the AZ supply then that is entirely different from any trust in the effectiveness of the vaccine. A business dispute shouldn't be used as a reason to not use an effective and approved vaccine.

    If you have decided not to give that vaccine to people over 65 or 70, then what is the reason for leaving it in the fridge rather than giving it to other parts of the population that have been approved for.

    There is no reason to not use the vaccines in someone's arm if you still have people waiting to be vaccinated. They are definitely uneffective if sat in the fridge.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    McGiver wrote: »
    Untrue.

    It's not political in Germany at all.
    It's a trust issue and conservative approach.

    Trust - AZ ha proven itself to be not trustable company, not honouring commitments, giving preference to the other parties under political pressure, applied late to the EMA etc.

    Conservative approach - there were and still are issues with the data, it's not stupid from the Germans to be guarded and prefer their own quality vaccine Biontech and Curevac, or the US Moderna, JJ or Novavax which don't have any such issues with data or potential efficacy issues.

    1.5 vaccines is only 750k population fully vaccinated which is only 0.9% of the German population. That's insignificant (for them). Context is important.

    Your Jingoism is all well and good but it doesn't explain the reluctantance to use AZ on the approved groups or the lackadaisical approach to other vaccines.


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