Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 12:17PM

jrosen wrote: »

Your not comparing like with like. The systems are vastly different in the US and Ireland. Having lived and educated my children in the US for some time I know how it works.
I dont disagree with the idea in theory. But imo its a total waste of money and resources for what will be a limited period of time and limited benefit.

They don't have to be the same systems for it to be something that's worth the investment on it's own merits.

We also lived and educated our children for years in the US. The education system that exists there and a hybrid remote learning plan pulled together in a pandemic are two different things. We can and should do it our way, anyway.

They pulled it together within 2 months. So it was running fairly quickly. I would argue against the "limited benefit" you made. It's been done here to death and rightly so that children being without a proper education setup is harmful. When we were walloped last year and had nothing in place for the most part, only receiving once a week emails of work from the school, it obviously wasn't good enough. There was no interaction or teaching from/with the teacher and their peers. It's not perfect now, but we have something much better, which in turn is better for our kids. We could and should improve on that again in my opinion (as said before). Who knows where this thing goes and for how long.

Only today I saw in the news the new variants we have here, and a strong warning from Mike Ryan of WHO we're f-g up the earth and there will be more danger to come. For once, we could be forward thinking and try and get ahead of the shíte. So it's needed now, for who knows how long, and what's coming down in future.

I don't think there's a limited benefit in light of all that.

jrosen · 26-02-2021 12:19PM

Just to add,

Canada have/had a system where they use their high risk teachers to run remote lessons. On the surface it sounds great but when you look into it further im not sure. Your child will be taught by a teacher they dont know, have never met before and will never meet again, they will be in a remote class of students they dont know and of a variety of abilities with a teacher who doesnt have the access or information to manage. They will pick up the lessons that teachers is ready to cover regardless of where they have left off in their own classes. When they return to their own classes they may or may not have covered the same material. Overall the feedback from my canadian friends who are teachers, well one currently teachers the other does not anymore they dont rate it and have chosen to send their kids back to school rather than use the remote options.

Lillyfae · 26-02-2021 12:23PM

jrosen wrote: »

Just to add,

Canada have/had a system where they use their high risk teachers to run remote lessons. On the surface it sounds great but when you look into it further im not sure. Your child will be taught by a teacher they dont know, have never met before and will never meet again, they will be in a remote class of students they dont know and of a variety of abilities with a teacher who doesnt have the access or information to manage. They will pick up the lessons that teachers is ready to cover regardless of where they have left off in their own classes. When they return to their own classes they may or may not have covered the same material. Overall the feedback from my canadian friends who are teachers, well one currently teachers the other does not anymore they dont rate it and have chosen to send their kids back to school rather than use the remote options.

God that's really interesting. I would have thought putting high risk teachers teaching high risk students sounded like a great solution, and added bonus of promoting inclusion in a way. Maybe the ad hoc situation is the problem though, not the idea per se.

jrosen · 26-02-2021 12:25PM

I do see the merit in long term changes to the irish education system, in fact I think it needs it. However for now, with covid I think putting systems in place that may not last or are not compatible with the current education system we have is wasteful and will have a temporary benefit.

jrosen · 26-02-2021 12:27PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

God that's really interesting. I would have thought putting high risk teachers teaching high risk students sounded like a great solution, and added bonus of promoting inclusion in a way. Maybe the ad hoc situation is the problem though, not the idea per se.

It wasnt necessarily just for high risk students, it was parents who opted not to send their kids back to school. When schools closed and went remote then the students remained with their own class and teacher on line. I do think its a great idea and a wonderful way to allow education to continue and reduce class numbers but when you analyze it, its not idea. With some workarounds it could be successful and im sure for some parents who have high risk kids it was best option.

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 12:28PM

jrosen wrote: »

Just to add,

Canada have/had a system where they use their high risk teachers to run remote lessons. On the surface it sounds great but when you look into it further im not sure. Your child will be taught by a teacher they dont know, have never met before and will never meet again, they will be in a remote class of students they dont know and of a variety of abilities with a teacher who doesnt have the access or information to manage. They will pick up the lessons that teachers is ready to cover regardless of where they have left off in their own classes. When they return to their own classes they may or may not have covered the same material. Overall the feedback from my canadian friends who are teachers, well one currently teachers the other does not anymore they dont rate it and have chosen to send their kids back to school rather than use the remote options.

I see your point. But how is that different from a sub or fixed term contract of someone coming in for say, Maternity leave? Or getting a new teacher at the start of every year? I honestly think that what you described will allow kids to grow in resilience.

Maybe the remote teacher should have access to information and have a continuity of learning plan in place? Seems easy and obvious enough, and also sounds like they have some bugs to work out. There's probably a massive difference in things there too between all the provinces?

Teacher2020 · 26-02-2021 12:36PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Depends on the schools

I know in my dads primary school all teachers are in next Monday

Teachers can remote teach from their classrooms says the principal

Same in our school.
It's a case of if the principal has to be there we all have to be there - can't have anyone 'taking it easy' at home.
It is ridiculous imo. People are not supposed to be travelling if they don't need to be. More people on the roads, more road collisions =more demand on ICU beds.
I'm in the junior classes thankfully so I have all my kids in- the classroom would be an incredibly lonely place to be all day without children.

jrosen · 26-02-2021 12:41PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

I see your point. But how is that different from a sub or fixed term contract of someone coming in for say, Maternity leave? Or getting a new teacher at the start of every year? I honestly think that what you described will allow kids to grow in resilience.

Maybe the remote teacher should have access to information and have a continuity of learning plan in place? Seems easy and obvious enough, and also sounds like they have some bugs to work out. There's probably a massive difference in things there too between all the provinces?

The face to face you get in schools is incredibly valuable for both the student and teacher. I dont think any amount of paperwork can bridge that gap. There could be a work around for students who will remote learn for long periods of time, like an entire school year for illness. Or for teachers who are high risk and want to teach long term from home. So for these reasons I think long term investment is needed. But I dont think its a good idea in short bursts and especially for younger kids.
I do think more could be done to support parents who want to keep their kids home during covid.

Lillyfae · 26-02-2021 12:44PM

jrosen wrote: »

The face to face you get in schools is incredibly valuable for both the student and teacher. I dont think any amount of paperwork can bridge that gap. There could be a work around for students who will remote learn for long periods of time, like an entire school year for illness. Or for teachers who are high risk and want to teach long term from home. So for these reasons I think long term investment is needed. But I dont think its a good idea in short bursts and especially for younger kids.
I do think more could be done to support parents who want to keep their kids home during covid.

Agreed, but only if there is a medical need for it. Children need their teachers and their peers.

khalessi · 26-02-2021 12:50PM

There are kids in Australia who have been schooled via bush radio for years. I am sure there has to be some work around for children who remain at home regardless of whether it is for medical or other reasons.

wirelessdude01 · 26-02-2021 12:56PM

Teacher2020 wrote: »

Same in our school.
It's a case of if the principal has to be there we all have to be there - can't have anyone 'taking it easy' at home.
It is ridiculous imo. People are not supposed to be travelling if they don't need to be. More people on the roads, more road collisions =more demand on ICU beds.
I'm in the junior classes thankfully so I have all my kids in- the classroom would be an incredibly lonely place to be all day without children.

Tis a case of an insecure principal.

Teacher2020 · 26-02-2021 12:58PM

khalessi wrote: »

There are kids in Australia who have been schooled via bush radio for years. I am sure there has to be some work around for children who remain at home regardless of whether it is for medical or other reasons.

Usually teachers will facilitate the children staying at home in some way.
I know in my class I've had one child stay at home all year due to an extremely vulnerable family member in their house.
I shared my fortnightly plans with them and they could send me the child's work on SeeSaw to look at if they wanted.
I have done this for years for children who are getting tonsils out etc.
The only time I refuse to facilitate parents in this regard is when they are going on holidays - that is a complete choice and I feel facilitating them in keeping up with the class while they are away encourages holidays during term time.

never_mind · 26-02-2021 01:00PM

My brother has decided to keep his youngest home. My niece isn't vulberable at all but I think he made the right decision to wait until her older sister returns on the 15th. The principal and class teacher were both very supportive of the decision.

BonsaiKitten · 26-02-2021 01:05PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I think we've had this conversation before but the public school system in Ireland and the US are wildly different. The public schools in the US are funded according to what the school district is allocated- which hangs massively on the overall income of people in the area. An area of high unemployment and deprivation will receive far far less than a middle class area. It's likely that your family live in ( and no doubt chose to live in!) areas with better schools because people do that, they move to the best school district that they can afford once they have a family. In Ireland all children are supposedly treated equally, so every school has the same per capita funding. What they choose to, or have to spend that on, is a different matter.

Absolutely. I think I've posted before about my American student teacher from a few years ago. When she graduated and got a job in a poor district, she was expected to fund the entire set up of her classroom herself. I think they didn't come right out and say that but they gave her no materials, no budget to buy materials and would mark her down in work evaluations if her room was missing 'key' (unprovided) materials.

She was running a sort of GoFundMe to buy all sorts - reading books, mini whiteboards, you name it. It's a huge thing over there. Not a system I'd want to copy.

jrosen · 26-02-2021 01:46PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Absolutely. I think I've posted before about my American student teacher from a few years ago. When she graduated and got a job in a poor district, she was expected to fund the entire set up of her classroom herself. I think they didn't come right out and say that but they gave her no materials, no budget to buy materials and would mark her down in work evaluations if her room was missing 'key' (unprovided) materials.

She was running a sort of GoFundMe to buy all sorts - reading books, mini whiteboards, you name it. It's a huge thing over there. Not a system I'd want to copy.

Yes go fund me's are common. I spent some time with an organization called change for kids. We did days at schools that would be a stones throw from multi millions dollar real estate but the kids wouldnt have a pencil.

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 02:09PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Absolutely. I think I've posted before about my American student teacher from a few years ago. When she graduated and got a job in a poor district, she was expected to fund the entire set up of her classroom herself. I think they didn't come right out and say that but they gave her no materials, no budget to buy materials and would mark her down in work evaluations if her room was missing 'key' (unprovided) materials.

She was running a sort of GoFundMe to buy all sorts - reading books, mini whiteboards, you name it. It's a huge thing over there. Not a system I'd want to copy.

So... what do you think of our "voluntary" contributions then, and the exhausting gamut of fundraisers the parents association normally run all year in order to fund even basic things for the pupils/school?

Zaney · 26-02-2021 02:48PM

khalessi wrote: »

There are kids in Australia who have been schooled via bush radio for years. I am sure there has to be some work around for children who remain at home regardless of whether it is for medical or other reasons.

And rural Austrailia have significantly higher rates of suicide including amongst young people. Now, of course there are multiple facotors at play, but I think we can all agree isolation has a significant impact on mental health.

If there is a medical reason for remote teaching, then that may well be the best option. Otherwise I firmly believe in class teaching is badly needed.

BonsaiKitten · 26-02-2021 02:53PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

So... what do you think of our "voluntary" contributions then, and the exhausting gamut of fundraisers the parents association normally run all year in order to fund even basic things for the pupils/school?

While it isn't great it's not as bad as what is happening over there. Now, if I ran the country voluntary contributions wouldn't be a thing, every school would be properly funded. But at least here there is standardised funding and extra for DEIS schools.

She wasn't allowed to send her fundraiser out to parents btw, the district didn't like the impression it gave. They couldn't expect students to bring in anything - paper, glue sticks, you name it. She was to supply everything from her own pocket.

Theboinkmaster · 26-02-2021 03:01PM

never_mind wrote: »

My brother has decided to keep his youngest home. My niece isn't vulberable at all but I think he made the right decision to wait until her older sister returns on the 15th. The principal and class teacher were both very supportive of the decision.

That's fair enough - everyone is entitled to their opinion and their own risk assessment and must do what's right for their own circumstances.

But if they've decided the older sister will return on the 15th why not send the youngest in 2 weeks before? 2 weeks won't be long enough to see impact of going back to school on case nos etc. and the daily drop in cases over that 2 weeks won't be that much.

So by waiting 2 weeks the risk won't be materially different IMO.

Not criticizing your brother at all - just pointing out that I'd have a different opinion on the risk.

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 03:01PM

Zaney wrote: »

If there is a medical reason for remote teaching, then that may well be the best option. Otherwise I firmly believe in class teaching is badly needed.

I agree, except in times of high community transmission in a pandemic. This isn't my opinion, this is what the experts all say.

It's a disgrace we don't have a remote teaching track for our medically vulnerable. I also think there needs to be a choice, for everyone. It should be choice for parents to make if they are not comfortable sending their children in during a global pandemic. When the decisions gov't makes are often political or economic, and a lack of talent in the position to even conduct a decent meeting, let alone rise to this particular challenge. Providing this would lower the class sizes as well, since some will take that up. This will make the classrooms safer, of which we have among the largest class size in Europe and often old, small classrooms. Which means we can't adhere to the best health guidelines, such as social distancing. Especially important when Primary aren't wearing masks. So that's two main health & safety guidelines primary schools can't follow well.

insullation · 26-02-2021 03:08PM

Random sample wrote: »

So if you were in a room to discuss x and the other party would only discuss y you would sit there for the national good and talk about y? Or would you sit there and keep restating that you were there to talk about x?

At some stage you have to stand up to bullies. The des and Norma have been disingenuous from the start in their dealings with the unions. Someone has to call them out on that.

PeterPan92 wrote: »

Ok, let's look at two of those statements:

1) There are hundreds of thousands of people working away on the front line.

Indeed there are. I applaud them. However, when nurses and doctors chose to enter the profession, they accepted that they would be working with people with diseases, some of which would be contagious. It is part of their day-to-day jobs. They have adequate PPE gear (obviously rightfully so), and proper training and facilities. Schools and teachers have none of these.

2) Take as much precautions as they can
I would rephrase this to "take as much precaution as their workplaces allow." Supermarket workers do not work in close quarters with one another (I worked in a shop like this for years during college, speaking first hand here). They are not spending more than 15 minutes in close contact with any of their customers. They are provided with a protective screen at every checkout. That is what their workplaces allow.

The above two sentences do not apply to the vastly different scenario in my classroom, where there is 28 of us shoved into a small space with little to no social distancing. There are children that need me to sit with them as they struggle. If I am to maintain social distancing, I cannot help these children in the classroom. At present though, I CAN help them on Zoom. I am able to talk to them one-to-one, using online resources and PPTs, as well as concrete manipulative they have at home, to help them understand. These children are benefiting more at present, as they are able to use these manipulatives and get the attention that I can't give them in school without breaking health and safety protocols.

Stop comparing teachers with frontline staff who are doing amazing and essential work that cannot be done remotely. If they want to term us frontline though, I'm fine with that. Now give us frontline protections, frontline vaccination prioritization, etc. Until then though, stop.

Stateofyou wrote: »

I agree, except in times of high community transmission in a pandemic. This isn't my opinion, this is what the experts all say.

It's a disgrace we don't have a remote teaching track for our medically vulnerable. I also think there needs to be a choice, for everyone. It should be choice for parents to make if they are not comfortable sending their children in during a global pandemic. When the decisions gov't makes are often political or economic, and a lack of talent in the position to even conduct a decent meeting, let alone rise to this particular challenge. Providing this would lower the class sizes as well, since some will take that up. This will make the classrooms safer, of which we have among the largest class size in Europe and often old, small classrooms. Which means we can't adhere to the best health guidelines, such as social distancing. Especially important when Primary aren't wearing masks. So that's two main health & safety guidelines primary schools can't follow well.

I would agree with you but the only problem is that home learning is no substitute for been in class.

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 03:09PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

While it isn't great it's not as bad as what is happening over there. Now, if I ran the country voluntary contributions wouldn't be a thing, every school would be properly funded. But at least here there is standardised funding and extra for DEIS schools.

She wasn't allowed to send her fundraiser out to parents btw, the district didn't like the impression it gave. They couldn't expect students to bring in anything - paper, glue sticks, you name it. She was to supply everything from her own pocket.

That couldn't be right. My kids and my family/friends who are over there, all have to buy their own school supplies. It's a huge thing over there, the "back to school sales." Large retailers like Walmart, Target, Costco even have their local school's back to school supply lists in case parents forgot or lost theirs. You've to buy pens, pencils, markers, notebooks, glue, rulers, pencil cases, rubbers, parers, paper, folders, personal tissue paper (for sneezes, nose blows) etc etc. Teachers were responsible for their room decorations (like here) and some teaching materials.

I agree and totally acknowledge that school districts differ on funding and resources available to them, and it isn't right nor a model to aspire to. But, neither is ours. We didn't even mention the SEN sector having been left behind, and the costs of crested everything..

the corpo · 26-02-2021 03:21PM

I’ve been told of a primary school “strongly encouraging” older primary school children to wear masks upon their March 12th return. The Dept of Ed - based on public health advice - says the wearing of masks by primary school students “is not being recommended at this time”.

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1365305890564407301

Seems nonsensical to me to not give our schools every chance to stay open. sigh...

BonsaiKitten · 26-02-2021 03:21PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

That couldn't be right. My kids and my family/friends who are over there, all have to buy their own school supplies. It's a huge thing over there, the "back to school sales." Large retailers like Walmart, Target, Costco even have their local school's back to school supply lists in case parents forgot or lost theirs. You've to buy pens, pencils, markers, notebooks, glue, rulers, pencil cases, rubbers, parers, paper, folders, personal tissue paper (for sneezes, nose blows) etc etc. Teachers were responsible for their room decorations (like here) and some teaching materials.

I agree and totally acknowledge that school districts differ on funding and resources available to them, and it isn't right nor a model to aspire to. But, neither is ours. We didn't even mention the SEN sector having been left behind, and the costs of crested everything..

She told me herself that they were not allowed ask for supplies so I'll trust her to know her own circumstances. My understanding was that in her school, they could bring in bits if they wanted to but sending out a supply request was banned.

The rules seem to vary hugely depending on district. I had my class doing a penpal exchange last year with a teacher whose system sounded a lot more like the one you've experience of - but she was states away from my ex-student teacher. Her school was like another world in comparison. And different again to the teacher I penpalled with the year before.

I wouldn't consider our method to be all that great - there's a lot we can improve on, being in this thread you'll have seen us teachers talk about that - but I wouldn't touch a US teaching job myself. Would throw England into that too, now that I think about it.

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 03:27PM

insullation wrote: »

I would agree with you but the only problem is that home learning is no substitute for been in class.

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Home learning is just that - a substitute. Is it ideal? Of course not. Do some kids benefit or get a respite from bullying? Yeah. Is it ideal for many of us to work from home (kids or not)? No. But are there some advantages? Yeah. Does it protect the medically vulnerable in a pandemic? Yep.

Should we lockdown for a long time, OR should we just put the kids all back anyway when it's still not safe to do so, because it's best for them to be in school. No and no.

Should we revert to remote learning in times of high community transmission?
Yes. (as per experts)

Should we lash them back in with no new or adequate safety measures when transmission is still too high and in light of a more contagious & virulent strain?
NO.

(*my opinion)

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 03:31PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

She told me herself that they were not allowed ask for supplies so I'll trust her to know her own circumstances. My understanding was that in her school, they could bring in bits if they wanted to but sending out a supply request was banned.

The rules seem to vary hugely depending on district. I had my class doing a penpal exchange last year with a teacher whose system sounded a lot more like the one you've experience of - but she was states away from my ex-student teacher. Her school was like another world in comparison. And different again to the teacher I penpalled with the year before.

I wouldn't consider our method to be all that great - there's a lot we can improve on, being in this thread you'll have seen us teachers talk about that - but I wouldn't touch a US teaching job myself. Would throw England into that too, now that I think about it.

Sorry, but I think you have taken something up wrong. (Edit to add- or maybe not wrong and sorry for any offense caused, but it would be rare enough if that's the case and those rare situations aren't really the point here, right?) I lived there for years, and extensively traveled for work and pleasure. There are ads running during end of summer on tv and in all post boxes & newspapers showing where the best deals are for supplies and back to school clothes. I traveled a lot for work and I can recall lots of things like parents in the state across the other side of the US mentioning days off for getting supplies for back to school, so we schedule meetings and travel around it. It's just the way it is.

In the two schools my kids were in, they also had resources and funds for low income families to avail of, so no teacher would have spending out of pocket for that reason either. I remember the large retailers and local businesses always donated for low income families too.

I'm not trying to get your back up, I'm just saying this is the way is in the US observed first hand for many years of living and working there.

khalessi · 26-02-2021 03:36PM

Zaney wrote: »

And rural Austrailia have significantly higher rates of suicide including amongst young people. Now, of course there are multiple facotors at play, but I think we can all agree isolation has a significant impact on mental health.

If there is a medical reason for remote teaching, then that may well be the best option. Otherwise I firmly believe in class teaching is badly needed.

Please provide data showing the connection between AUstralian bush radio teaching and rate of suicide otherwise complete hyperbole

BonsaiKitten · 26-02-2021 03:50PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

Sorry, but I think you have taken something up wrong. I lived there for years, and extensively traveled for work and pleasure. There are ads running during end of summer on tv and in all post boxes showing where the best deals are for supplies and back to school clothes. I traveled a lot for work and I can recall lots of things like parents in the state across the other side of the US mentioning days off for getting supplies for back to school, so we schedule meetings and travel around it. It's just the way it is.

In the two schools my kids were in, they also had resources and funds for low income families to avail of, so no teacher would have spending out of pocket for that reason either. I remember the large retailers and local businesses always donated for low income families too.

I'm not trying to get your back up, I'm just saying this is the way is in the US observed first hand for many years of living and working there.

Are you for real? I'm telling you that she - a working professional - had this experience. As a US teacher, working in a US school. I'm telling you what she told me directly, there is no inferring or interpreting happening on my part. No matter how many Back To School campaigns you saw, it still happened.

Now, I am sure her experience isn't the experience of every American teacher - if you reread my posts, you'll note that I talked about the disparity of funding in the school districts. She was in a shít poor district, no two ways about it. Your experience actually tallies quite well with what I'm saying.

I am done with this conversation now. Aside from anything else, it's dragging us off on a tangent.

BonsaiKitten · 26-02-2021 03:55PM

Just out of curiosity. For anyone whose child is returning to school on Monday (or went back earlier), how are the logistics of that being handled? I'm thinking about bringing back books etc. The 3rd-6th class teachers will be creating our own procedures next week. We'll follow a lot of what our junior classes do of course but any advice is welcome!

Stateofyou · 26-02-2021 03:56PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Are you for real? I'm telling you that she - a working professional - had this experience. As a US teacher, working in a US school. I'm telling you what she told me directly, there is no inferring or interpreting happening on my part. No matter how many Back To School campaigns you saw, it still happened.

Now, I am sure her experience isn't the experience of every American teacher - if you reread my posts, you'll note that I talked about the disparity of funding in the school districts. She was in a shít poor district, no two ways about it. Your experience actually tallies quite well with what I'm saying.

I am done with this conversation now. Aside from anything else, it's dragging us off on a tangent.

Yes, I'm for real. Did you see my edit? I don't think so because it's not in your quote.

I'm sure that really happened. But I'm telling you that is not the m.o. for how it works there on a large scale, so what relevance does a more rare, or once off situation have when the vast majority of the US isn't like that? We were comparing two different countries school systems, so surely the usual done thing is the actual point, no?

I'm sure in poorer states or counties, as true for anywhere, good-hearted teachers try to help their pupils in any way possible.

Anyway, there's **** aspects to both country's education systems so we can leave it there.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01