Attic conversion..cert of compliance!

cojomo2 · 25-02-2021 09:17PM #1

Hi folks,

I understand about 90% of attic conversions are done as "storage" so do not require planning permission so long as the external structure remains as is (with exception of roof windows to the rear).

If so, these conversions (typically with fixed stairs) obviously do not comply (or should the need to) with building regs for a "habitable space ".

Are such properties then unsellable due to falling short of these regs, or do different (much less strict) regs apply to an attic room that is classed as "non habitable" storage space?

Many thanks

sydthebeat · 25-02-2021 09:50PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

Hi folks,

I understand about 90% of attic conversions are done as "storage" so do not require planning permission so long as the external structure remains as is (with exception of roof windows to the rear).

If so, these conversions (typically with fixed stairs) obviously do not comply (or should the need to) with building regs for a "habitable space ".

Are such properties then unsellable due to falling short of these regs, or do different (much less strict) regs apply to an attic room that is classed as "non habitable" storage space?

Many thanks

everythings sellable

however they may not be sold as regulation 'bedrooms' / 'habitable' space, but more so as 'converted attic' space.

different regs apply in that no regs apply... apart from the structure still being able to hold itself up

cojomo2 · 25-02-2021 10:04PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

everythings sellable

however they may not be sold as regulation 'bedrooms' / 'habitable' space, but more so as 'converted attic' space.

different regs apply in that no regs apply... apart from the structure still being able to hold itself up

Thanks. If being sold as "attic converted for storage", and it has a fixed stairs, does it still need certificate of compliance for building regs?

Gumbo · 26-02-2021 01:14AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks. If being sold as "attic converted for storage", and it has a fixed stairs, does it still need certificate of compliance for building regs?

Yes is the short answer.

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 08:12AM

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes is the short answer.

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

lawred2 · 26-02-2021 08:20AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

Why? The construction is compliant?

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 08:35AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Why? The construction is compliant?

These structures (conversions for "storage" with fixed stairs) in nearly all cases won't be compliant with the buildings regs required for a "habitable space".

Essentially the home owner is only converting for "storage" but according to Gumbo, the addition of a fixed stairs means their conversion is now no longer seen as "storage" but "habitable space" and so must comply with regs for a "habitable space" (which it won't).

This doesn't seem correct to me..as I said, if what Gumbo is stating is fact, nearly every home with an attic conversion will have difficulties when selling.

DOCARCH · 26-02-2021 08:39AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

No matter what the use (and how a person wants to define it), the biggest issue is usually structural.

The majority of attic conversions involve some element of structural alteration to the existing roof and ceiling structure. There should be an opinion on compliance (at least) for the structural alterations.

Tippbhoy1 · 26-02-2021 08:41AM

I’d be interested in the conclusion of this too.

What exactly are the regs?
I’m frequently told it is not worth the hassle, without clarity of what exactly is required. As far as I can figure-
Fixed stairs
Auto shutting doors downstairs
Re-enforcing the floor?
Fireproofing the ceiling underneath?
And planning permission-even if it’s just a skylight at the back?
I presume some means of escape
Anything else?

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 08:46AM

DOCARCH wrote: »

No matter what the use (and how a person wants to define it), the biggest issue is usually structural.

The majority of attic conversions involve some element of structural alteration to the existing roof and ceiling structure. There should be an opinion on compliance (at least) for the structural alterations.

Thanks..yes that makes sense..to ensure it's structurally sound (wasn't built by a cowboy), but do these structures need to comply with other regs (e.g. fire regs) if they have a fixed stairs but are only used as storage?

DOCARCH · 26-02-2021 09:33AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks..yes that makes sense..to ensure it's structurally sound (wasn't built by a cowboy), but do these structures need to comply with other regs (e.g. fire regs) if they have a fixed stairs but are only used as storage?

If the space is non-habitable, genuinely for storage, then, technically, few other building regulations apply (apart from structure).

If the space is non-habitable, but is used for habitation (play/living/sleeping space), I would be trying to comply with as many of the relevant building regulations as possible/practicable, especially in relation to fire....if I was involved in job like that, I would insist on it!

Never mind the technicality of building regulation compliance, I think a person has moral obligation!

As to the whole habitable/non-habitable question, a fire officer once said to me that if your mother can get up there, without a ladder, it's habitable!

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 10:03AM

DOCARCH wrote: »

If the space is non-habitable, genuinely for storage, then, technically, few other building regulations apply (apart from structure).

If the space is non-habitable, but is used for habitation (play/living/sleeping space), I would be trying to comply with as many of the relevant building regulations as possible/practicable, especially in relation to fire....if I was involved in job like that, I would insist on it!

Never mind the technicality of building regulation compliance, I think a person has moral obligation!

As to the whole habitable/non-habitable question, a fire officer once said to me that if your mother can get up there, without a ladder, it's habitable!

Thanks and I agree with everything you have said.

The bit that's blurry is whether it's regarded as habitable or not. If I have an old attic conversion that has a fixed stairs but is genuinely used as a storage room and advertised as such (but in theory could be used as a study), and I'm selling..where do I stand if the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance? Of course it won't meet regs for a habitable space (as it's not)..is this then an issue..or can it be signed off as not being required due to it being a storage space? Thanks

sydthebeat · 26-02-2021 10:41AM

its a case of "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck"

if you have a fixed stairs, insulated structural elements, proper lighting, ventilation, electrics and heating as youd have in a habitable room... then from a certifying point of view, youre certifying it as if its a habitable room.

just because it may not have the required ceiling heights or widths of ceiling doesnt absolve its use.

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 11:23AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

its a case of "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck"

if you have a fixed stairs, insulated structural elements, proper lighting, ventilation, electrics and heating as youd have in a habitable room... then from a certifying point of view, youre certifying it as if its a habitable room.

just because it may not have the required ceiling heights or widths of ceiling doesnt absolve its use.

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

lawred2 · 26-02-2021 11:41AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

Well look at it this way.. do you think the owner of a 3 bed with a structurally certified attic conversion in Malahide has an issue with selling their house?

Just because it might marginally fall down on ceiling height doesn't mean that the buyer doesn't see it's value.

DOCARCH · 26-02-2021 11:43AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

....pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling?

Many do and have to get retrospective certification for the sale to go through.

FileNotFound · 26-02-2021 11:47AM

cojomo2 wrote: »

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

This really is a silly convo as houses with these exact conversions sell every day with no issue at all.

All that happens is that it can't be called a 4 bed, its called a 3 bed with attic conversion (or not even mentioned), viewed loads when i was buying and I knew like everyone else what the rooms were and would be.

It seems likely the info you are using is either incorrect or misinterpreted as a fixed stairs to an attic has no impact on the classification to my knowledge - most don't meet bedroom acceptance sue to fire rating etc.

Or maybe things changed a lot in the last 3 years.

FileNotFound · 26-02-2021 11:51AM

DOCARCH wrote: »

Many do and have to get retrospective certification for the sale to go through.

Certification of what exactly?

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 11:59AM

FileNotFound wrote: »

This really is a silly convo as houses with these exact conversions sell every day with no issue at all.

All that happens is that it can't be called a 4 bed, its called a 3 bed with attic conversion (or not even mentioned), viewed loads when i was buying and I knew like everyone else what the rooms were and would be.

It seems likely the info you are using is either incorrect or misinterpreted as a fixed stairs to an attic has no impact on the classification to my knowledge - most don't meet bedroom acceptance sue to fire rating etc.

Or maybe things changed a lot in the last 3 years.

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

FileNotFound · 26-02-2021 12:02PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

Odd one alright, been a few years since i was involved in anything as such.

Interested to see what this actually means now - keep us updated if you can.

DOCARCH · 26-02-2021 12:09PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

All an opinion on compliance is stating is the works comply with the relevant parts/sections of the building regulations. This is not necessarily all the building regulations.

Structure is one part/section of the building regulations which would be applicable if the attic was converted for storage.

As far as I understand, the purchasers solicitor is not necessarily looking for an opinion on compliance that the attic conversion is habitable?

Normally also an opinion on compliance with planning permission/planning exemption would be required.

DOCARCH · 26-02-2021 12:10PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Certification of what exactly?

Building regulations and planning permission/planning exemption.

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 12:14PM

DOCARCH wrote: »

All an opinion on compliance is stating is the works comply with the relevant parts/sections of the building regulations. This is not necessarily all the building regulations.

Structure is one part/section of the building regulations which would be applicable if the attic was converted for storage.

As far as I understand, the purchasers solicitor is not necessarily looking for an opinion on compliance that the attic conversion is habitable?

Normally also an opinion on compliance with planning permission/planning exemption would be required.

Yes but from what folk here are saying, if it has a fixed stairs (which nearly all storage conversions do) , its will be regarded as "habitable space" and have to meet the regs relating to same?

Penn · 26-02-2021 12:15PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

If it's being sold as a bedroom or habitable space, you need certification that it's built as per the building regs for a bedroom or habitable space.

But if it's being sold as non-habitable storage space only, it can be certified that it's non-habitable storage space only and constructed as per the applicable building regulations for same (eg. structure, fire as it relates to fireproofing of structural items etc).

Gumbo · 26-02-2021 12:15PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

Storage/Habitable - doesn't matter to me.
The fixed stairs now makes this an additional storey added to the dwelling. Was this a 2 storey dwelling that's now a 3 storey dwelling?

Is the storage room insulated with lights and floor finishes? does it have finished walls with plug sockets?

Part A and Part B are the big ones for Storage space.

Gumbo · 26-02-2021 12:16PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

Yes but from what folk here are saying, if it has a fixed stairs (which nearly all storage conversions do) , its will be regarded as "habitable space" and have to meet the regs relating to same?

Not just the folk here, obviously the professionals in the real world have the same concerns as the sale is stalled because of it.

sydthebeat · 26-02-2021 12:17PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Certification of what exactly?

you cannot buy through mortgage without all relevant certification being in place.

many many sales have fallen through because if this

cojomo2 · 26-02-2021 12:19PM

Gumbo wrote: »

Storage/Habitable - doesn't matter to me.
The fixed stairs now makes this an additional storey added to the dwelling. Was this a 2 storey dwelling that's now a 3 storey dwelling?

Is the storage room insulated with lights and floor finishes? does it have finished walls with plug sockets?

Part A and Part B are the big ones for Storage space.

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

FileNotFound · 26-02-2021 12:22PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

Also interested.

Gumbo · 26-02-2021 12:23PM

cojomo2 wrote: »

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

FileNotFound · 26-02-2021 12:26PM

Gumbo wrote: »

It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

Just a curiosity - if there is no fixed stairs does that make it storage by default?

Attic conversion..cert of compliance!

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