Attic conversion..cert of compliance!

cojomo2

Hi folks,

I understand about 90% of attic conversions are done as "storage" so do not require planning permission so long as the external structure remains as is (with exception of roof windows to the rear).

If so, these conversions (typically with fixed stairs) obviously do not comply (or should the need to) with building regs for a "habitable space ".

Are such properties then unsellable due to falling short of these regs, or do different (much less strict) regs apply to an attic room that is classed as "non habitable" storage space?

Many thanks

sydthebeat

cojomo2 wrote: »

Hi folks,

I understand about 90% of attic conversions are done as "storage" so do not require planning permission so long as the external structure remains as is (with exception of roof windows to the rear).

If so, these conversions (typically with fixed stairs) obviously do not comply (or should the need to) with building regs for a "habitable space ".

Are such properties then unsellable due to falling short of these regs, or do different (much less strict) regs apply to an attic room that is classed as "non habitable" storage space?

Many thanks

everythings sellable

however they may not be sold as regulation 'bedrooms' / 'habitable' space, but more so as 'converted attic' space.

different regs apply in that no regs apply... apart from the structure still being able to hold itself up

cojomo2

sydthebeat wrote: »

everythings sellable

however they may not be sold as regulation 'bedrooms' / 'habitable' space, but more so as 'converted attic' space.

different regs apply in that no regs apply... apart from the structure still being able to hold itself up

Thanks. If being sold as "attic converted for storage", and it has a fixed stairs, does it still need certificate of compliance for building regs?

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks. If being sold as "attic converted for storage", and it has a fixed stairs, does it still need certificate of compliance for building regs?

Yes is the short answer.

cojomo2

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes is the short answer.

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

lawred2

cojomo2 wrote: »

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

Why? The construction is compliant?

cojomo2

lawred2 wrote: »

Why? The construction is compliant?

These structures (conversions for "storage" with fixed stairs) in nearly all cases won't be compliant with the buildings regs required for a "habitable space".

Essentially the home owner is only converting for "storage" but according to Gumbo, the addition of a fixed stairs means their conversion is now no longer seen as "storage" but "habitable space" and so must comply with regs for a "habitable space" (which it won't).

This doesn't seem correct to me..as I said, if what Gumbo is stating is fact, nearly every home with an attic conversion will have difficulties when selling.

DOCARCH

cojomo2 wrote: »

So in that case, nearly every house that has an attic conversion will have issues when selling?

I say "nearly every" as 90%+ of all conversions are "storage" with a fixed stairs.

No matter what the use (and how a person wants to define it), the biggest issue is usually structural.

The majority of attic conversions involve some element of structural alteration to the existing roof and ceiling structure. There should be an opinion on compliance (at least) for the structural alterations.

Tippbhoy1

I’d be interested in the conclusion of this too.

What exactly are the regs?
I’m frequently told it is not worth the hassle, without clarity of what exactly is required. As far as I can figure-
Fixed stairs
Auto shutting doors downstairs
Re-enforcing the floor?
Fireproofing the ceiling underneath?
And planning permission-even if it’s just a skylight at the back?
I presume some means of escape
Anything else?

cojomo2

DOCARCH wrote: »

No matter what the use (and how a person wants to define it), the biggest issue is usually structural.

The majority of attic conversions involve some element of structural alteration to the existing roof and ceiling structure. There should be an opinion on compliance (at least) for the structural alterations.

Thanks..yes that makes sense..to ensure it's structurally sound (wasn't built by a cowboy), but do these structures need to comply with other regs (e.g. fire regs) if they have a fixed stairs but are only used as storage?

DOCARCH

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks..yes that makes sense..to ensure it's structurally sound (wasn't built by a cowboy), but do these structures need to comply with other regs (e.g. fire regs) if they have a fixed stairs but are only used as storage?

If the space is non-habitable, genuinely for storage, then, technically, few other building regulations apply (apart from structure).

If the space is non-habitable, but is used for habitation (play/living/sleeping space), I would be trying to comply with as many of the relevant building regulations as possible/practicable, especially in relation to fire....if I was involved in job like that, I would insist on it!

Never mind the technicality of building regulation compliance, I think a person has moral obligation!

As to the whole habitable/non-habitable question, a fire officer once said to me that if your mother can get up there, without a ladder, it's habitable!

cojomo2

DOCARCH wrote: »

If the space is non-habitable, genuinely for storage, then, technically, few other building regulations apply (apart from structure).

If the space is non-habitable, but is used for habitation (play/living/sleeping space), I would be trying to comply with as many of the relevant building regulations as possible/practicable, especially in relation to fire....if I was involved in job like that, I would insist on it!

Never mind the technicality of building regulation compliance, I think a person has moral obligation!

As to the whole habitable/non-habitable question, a fire officer once said to me that if your mother can get up there, without a ladder, it's habitable!

Thanks and I agree with everything you have said.

The bit that's blurry is whether it's regarded as habitable or not. If I have an old attic conversion that has a fixed stairs but is genuinely used as a storage room and advertised as such (but in theory could be used as a study), and I'm selling..where do I stand if the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance? Of course it won't meet regs for a habitable space (as it's not)..is this then an issue..or can it be signed off as not being required due to it being a storage space? Thanks

sydthebeat

its a case of "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck"

if you have a fixed stairs, insulated structural elements, proper lighting, ventilation, electrics and heating as youd have in a habitable room... then from a certifying point of view, youre certifying it as if its a habitable room.

just because it may not have the required ceiling heights or widths of ceiling doesnt absolve its use.

cojomo2

sydthebeat wrote: »

its a case of "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck"

if you have a fixed stairs, insulated structural elements, proper lighting, ventilation, electrics and heating as youd have in a habitable room... then from a certifying point of view, youre certifying it as if its a habitable room.

just because it may not have the required ceiling heights or widths of ceiling doesnt absolve its use.

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

lawred2

cojomo2 wrote: »

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

Well look at it this way.. do you think the owner of a 3 bed with a structurally certified attic conversion in Malahide has an issue with selling their house?

Just because it might marginally fall down on ceiling height doesn't mean that the buyer doesn't see it's value.

DOCARCH

cojomo2 wrote: »

....pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling?

Many do and have to get retrospective certification for the sale to go through.

FileNotFound

cojomo2 wrote: »

OK so back to what I said earlier..pretty much all houses with attic conversions will have serious issues when selling? (Given that about 95% of all conversions are "storage" and have a fixed stairs)...is that correct? Hard to believe..!

This really is a silly convo as houses with these exact conversions sell every day with no issue at all.

All that happens is that it can't be called a 4 bed, its called a 3 bed with attic conversion (or not even mentioned), viewed loads when i was buying and I knew like everyone else what the rooms were and would be.

It seems likely the info you are using is either incorrect or misinterpreted as a fixed stairs to an attic has no impact on the classification to my knowledge - most don't meet bedroom acceptance sue to fire rating etc.

Or maybe things changed a lot in the last 3 years.

FileNotFound

DOCARCH wrote: »

Many do and have to get retrospective certification for the sale to go through.

Certification of what exactly?

cojomo2

FileNotFound wrote: »

This really is a silly convo as houses with these exact conversions sell every day with no issue at all.

All that happens is that it can't be called a 4 bed, its called a 3 bed with attic conversion (or not even mentioned), viewed loads when i was buying and I knew like everyone else what the rooms were and would be.

It seems likely the info you are using is either incorrect or misinterpreted as a fixed stairs to an attic has no impact on the classification to my knowledge - most don't meet bedroom acceptance sue to fire rating etc.

Or maybe things changed a lot in the last 3 years.

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

FileNotFound

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

Odd one alright, been a few years since i was involved in anything as such.

Interested to see what this actually means now - keep us updated if you can.

DOCARCH

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

All an opinion on compliance is stating is the works comply with the relevant parts/sections of the building regulations. This is not necessarily all the building regulations.

Structure is one part/section of the building regulations which would be applicable if the attic was converted for storage.

As far as I understand, the purchasers solicitor is not necessarily looking for an opinion on compliance that the attic conversion is habitable?

Normally also an opinion on compliance with planning permission/planning exemption would be required.

DOCARCH

FileNotFound wrote: »

Certification of what exactly?

Building regulations and planning permission/planning exemption.

cojomo2

DOCARCH wrote: »

All an opinion on compliance is stating is the works comply with the relevant parts/sections of the building regulations. This is not necessarily all the building regulations.

Structure is one part/section of the building regulations which would be applicable if the attic was converted for storage.

As far as I understand, the purchasers solicitor is not necessarily looking for an opinion on compliance that the attic conversion is habitable?

Normally also an opinion on compliance with planning permission/planning exemption would be required.

Yes but from what folk here are saying, if it has a fixed stairs (which nearly all storage conversions do) , its will be regarded as "habitable space" and have to meet the regs relating to same?

Penn

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

If it's being sold as a bedroom or habitable space, you need certification that it's built as per the building regs for a bedroom or habitable space.

But if it's being sold as non-habitable storage space only, it can be certified that it's non-habitable storage space only and constructed as per the applicable building regulations for same (eg. structure, fire as it relates to fireproofing of structural items etc).

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree.

The reason I'm asking is a family member is purchasing a property with a conversion (storage only with fixed stairs). It was very clear from the outset this was only storage space yet the the purchaser's solicitors is insisting on a cert of opinion on compliance which apparently is required by the lending institution. Surely this cannot be supplied as it won't comply?

Storage/Habitable - doesn't matter to me.
The fixed stairs now makes this an additional storey added to the dwelling. Was this a 2 storey dwelling that's now a 3 storey dwelling?

Is the storage room insulated with lights and floor finishes? does it have finished walls with plug sockets?

Part A and Part B are the big ones for Storage space.

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

Yes but from what folk here are saying, if it has a fixed stairs (which nearly all storage conversions do) , its will be regarded as "habitable space" and have to meet the regs relating to same?

Not just the folk here, obviously the professionals in the real world have the same concerns as the sale is stalled because of it.

sydthebeat

FileNotFound wrote: »

Certification of what exactly?

you cannot buy through mortgage without all relevant certification being in place.

many many sales have fallen through because if this

cojomo2

Gumbo wrote: »

Storage/Habitable - doesn't matter to me.
The fixed stairs now makes this an additional storey added to the dwelling. Was this a 2 storey dwelling that's now a 3 storey dwelling?

Is the storage room insulated with lights and floor finishes? does it have finished walls with plug sockets?

Part A and Part B are the big ones for Storage space.

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

FileNotFound

cojomo2 wrote: »

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

Also interested.

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

FileNotFound

Gumbo wrote: »

It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

Just a curiosity - if there is no fixed stairs does that make it storage by default?

DOCARCH

cojomo2 wrote: »

With respect, I'm only concerned what with what actually matters. Is the talk about fixed stairs = habitable (so subject to full rigour of regs) just your opinion or fact ?

We seem to be going in circles here!

The nuts and bolts of it is that if works have been carried out to a house, which would include an attic conversion, to sell/convey the property, the Law Society and lending institutions require opinions on compliance, from a professional, in relation to (....relevant....) building regulations and planning permission/exemption. That's to give the property 'clean title'.

If those opinions on compliance are not available, the purchasers solicitor has to qualify the title and highlight this to the lending institution. The lending institution then decides whether or not to loan the money to the purchaser, which in reality is at the lending institutions risk, as in effect they own the house of the duration of the mortgage/they want make sure they can easily offload if it all goes wrong!

If you have a cash buyer/no lending institution involved, then no (real) issue....it's the buyers problem!

cojomo2

Gumbo wrote: »

It needs a Cert of Compliance with the relevant Building Regulations. We are only taking your word on it that the attic/loft has not been converted, can you provide a link to the public sale ad?

If the attic does not meet habitable standards then it needs to clearly state storage use only and the structure needs to be certified to the requirements of Part A. Part B also comes into play to ensure adequate fire separation from the lower floors and to protect the stair enclosure, so fire doors at attic level and possibly self closing devices at the lower levels.

Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?

Gumbo

FileNotFound wrote: »

Just a curiosity - if there is no fixed stairs does that make it storage by default?

It means the space is not readily accessible so would mean its not an accessible room. Now, what I have seen in the past was people converting their attic space to bedrooms and putting in a pop down styra stairs. But once you went up there, it was fully finished, bed, ensuite the works.

They failed that on access then, Part K (Stairs). They were enforced to erect a stairs with adequate fire provisions or return the space to original condition.

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?

Not in my opinion.
Any of my experiences, the Judge will always sit on the side of the Enforcement Body, especially when it comes to fire safety.

Penn

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks. Are there scenarios where a storage conversion with fixed stairs does not have to comply with Part B?

You have to comply with Part B in some regards concerning fireproofing of structure, protection of escape routes etc. How the works carried out in terms of the stairs and structure impact the original provisions for fire protection, means of escape etc. Certification is required that the works carried out either comply with Part B requirements, or haven't resulted in a new or greater contravention of the existing Part B design of the house prior to the works having taken place.

If the solicitors are looking for an opinion of compliance for the works, you need an opinion of compliance for the works. They want someone to sign their name to the cert saying "All works carried out are in compliance with the relevant building regulations".

DOCARCH

Another thing I have seen happen is staircase removed....problem solved!

Harpon

DOCARCH wrote: »

We seem to be going in circles here!

The nuts and bolts of it is that if works have been carried out to a house, which would include an attic conversion, to sell/convey the property, the Law Society and lending institutions require opinions on compliance, from a professional, in relation to (....relevant....) building regulations and planning permission/exemption. That's to give the property 'clean title'.

If those opinions on compliance are not available, the purchasers solicitor has to qualify the title and highlight this to the lending institution. The lending institution then decides whether or not to loan the money to the purchaser, which in reality is at the lending institutions risk, as in effect they own the house of the duration of the mortgage/they want make sure they can easily offload if it all goes wrong!

If you have a cash buyer/no lending institution involved, then no (real) issue....it's the buyers problem!

I would find it hard to believe every house with an attic conversion being sold is by a cash buyer. So given half the country has had their attic converted, how come there isn’t a thread on here every week from someone saying they can’t sell there house as they can’t get a cert of compliance, unless they spend x amount bringing it up to standard? Every attic conversion I’ve seen on myhome or daft doesn’t have the fire safety doors etc. I’ve looked into getting my own attic converted and most companies actually talk you out of getting it converted to a “habitable” room as per planning.

So whatever the answer is, people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.

DOCARCH

Harpon wrote: »

....people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.

That's great and good luck to them, but I would suggest many either have some form of 'sign off'/opinion on compliance from a professional or have had to obtain same for the sale of the property.

Just to re-iterate....

Have all paperwork/'sign offs' = clean title.

Don't have all paperwork/'sign offs' = qualified title and lending institution will take view.

Also just to highlight that what happened in the past may not be relevant now as there is more onus on the solicitors to obtain the necessary paperwork/'sign offs' for lending institutions.

Gumbo

Harpon wrote: »

I would find it hard to believe every house with an attic conversion being sold is by a cash buyer. So given half the country has had their attic converted, how come there isn’t a thread on here every week from someone saying they can’t sell there house as they can’t get a cert of compliance, unless they spend x amount bringing it up to standard? Every attic conversion I’ve seen on myhome or daft doesn’t have the fire safety doors etc. I’ve looked into getting my own attic converted and most companies actually talk you out of getting it converted to a “habitable” room as per planning.

So whatever the answer is, people with attic conversions are clearly having no issue selling their homes to mortgage buyers.

Search the forum. There are many posts about it.

The reason the company talk you out of fire doors is because it’s cheaper for them to provide standard doors and easier. Fire doors are near double the weight!

The fact that companies mention it’s because of planning further proves they don’t know what they’re taking about and the building owner should engage independent professional.

It’s nothing, absolutely nothing got to do with planning whether your company provides fire doors etc

mickdw

What is not clearly stated here is that these storage converted houses with come witb a qualified cert of compliance.
Basically stating, works to attic are not habitable as building regulation, part F Ventilation -(ceiling height), part B Fire- (means of escape) are not complied with.

If everything else is deemed ok as in structurally ok coming with engineers cert re structural alterations etc, a bank would likely accept such a title.
If on the other hand the qualified cert had a list as long as your arm stating non compliance with each and every aspect of regs and non planning compliant also, well that is a different scenario.
In short pretty much any property will be able to obtain a cert - the content of the cert however can vary greatly.

cojomo2

mickdw wrote: »

What is not clearly stated here is that these storage converted houses with come witb a qualified cert of compliance.
Basically stating, works to attic are not habitable as building regulation, part F Ventilation -(ceiling height), part B Fire- (means of escape) are not complied with.

If everything else is deemed ok as in structurally ok coming with engineers cert re structural alterations etc, a bank would likely accept such a title.
If on the other hand the qualified cert had a list as long as your arm stating non compliance with each and every aspect of regs and non planning compliant also, well that is a different scenario.
In short pretty much any property will be able to obtain a cert - the content of the cert however can vary greatly.

So are you suggesting these storage conversions with fixed staircase do not need to comply with part B regs (fire regs) on the basis they are signed off as storage only?

I'm hoping that's the case, and that the presence of a fixed stairs doesn't automatically mean part B regs must be complied with.

mickdw

cojomo2 wrote: »

So are you suggesting these storage conversions with fixed staircase do not need to comply with part B regs (fire regs) on the basis they are signed off as storage only?

I'm hoping that's the case, and that the presence of a fixed stairs doesn't automatically mean part B regs must be complied with.

In my opinion they wouldnt and often dont comply with aspects of Part B re escape and part F re ceiling height etc. Going into 3rd storey though, i would be looking for other aspects to be complied with even when officially storage and if you get into the situation where there is an ensuite up there, id be having nothing to do with it.

cojomo2

mickdw wrote: »

In my opinion they wouldnt and often dont comply with aspects of Part B re escape and part F re ceiling height etc. Going into 3rd storey though, i would be looking for other aspects to be complied with even when officially storage and if you get into the situation where there is an ensuite up there, id be having nothing to do with it.

I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?

Penn

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?

You're asking a question that can't be fully answered because it depends on the existing building, existing Part B compliance, and if the works carried out either comply with Part B but also whether or not they impact on the existing Part B compliance.

Regardless of the use of the space, at the very minimum all works carried out should have no new or greater contravention of compliance with the building regulations. So you could still be asked for an opinion on compliance with building regulations stating that the works carried out are in compliance with building regulations in that they haven't negatively impacted the existing compliance of the house.

A similar example is exempted developments. You could have an extension built onto the house that is an exempted development. But when selling, the bank/solicitors could still request a cert of compliance with planning stating that it complies with planning regulations by not requiring planning permission.

So yes, you need to comply with Part B even if it's storage space, by not affecting the existing Part B compliance.

sydthebeat

cojomo2 wrote: »

I agree they generally wouldn't comply with part B, but are they required to, given they are storage (with fixed stairs)?

depends on the use

cojomo2

sydthebeat wrote: »

depends on the use

Storage.

Gumbo

cojomo2 wrote: »

Storage.

Show us a pic.
From the ad.

cojomo2

Gumbo wrote: »

Show us a pic.
From the ad.

Very similar to this
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/57-parkmore-drive-terenure-dublin-6w/4447368

BryanF

Window visible in photo of attic doesn’t comply (tgd it’s not clear if doors comply in terms of fire seals at all levels. Not clear if AOV is provided.

There is a tv & office set up so on that basis, I’d expect to see part B complied with.

haven’t considered other regs.

cojomo2

BryanF wrote: »

Window visible in photo of attic doesn’t comply (tgd it’s not clear if doors comply in terms of fire seals at all levels. Not clear if AOV is provided.

There is a tv & office set up so on that basis, I’d expect to see part B complied with.

haven’t considered other regs.

Yes but the question is does it need to comply if its only being used for storage ( by the new owner). i.e. can it be certified as compliant as a storage only room?