The way forward for LC2021

History Queen · 24-02-2021 10:57PM

Treppen wrote: »

Conspiracy theory tells me it's a way of dissuading students from sitting the actual exam. Which is what the DES wanted from the get go.

Well a colleague of mine has said she'll stay after school two evenings for any student who would like to sit a mock exam in her subject (Maths) and no one will be stopping her. I definitely wouldn't try dissuade her! :pac: formidable lady!

Edit: seriously though, telling teachers not to run mock exams if they see fit is bat****. In my subjects (English and History) I run them for timing practice more than anything else! I don't put much heed in results as the papers are often leaked, but for timing and exam technique I do find them useful to students.

LW2018 · 24-02-2021 10:59PM

History Queen wrote: »

Well a colleague of mine has said she'll stay after school two evenings for any student who would like to sit a mock exam in her subject (Maths) and no one will be stopping her. I definitely wouldn't try dissuade her! :pac: formidable lady!

Good on her! There's at least one of them in each school... and I do love them!

am_zarathustra · 24-02-2021 11:10PM

km79 wrote: »

What happens though if a large proportion choose not to do exams ?
We are getting them back into school buildings and then not teaching them for one/two weeks ?
Where do they go?

Why on earth would they not be sitting the exam like the rest of their class. I have tests regularly enough, the kids know I'll find another time to make them sit it if they don't at the normal time. If I need an exam to assess particular parts of the course to get an overall picture of where the students are at and how they would respond to choice and time pressure I'll be doing that, and I'll happily explain why to anyone who cares to ask, which will, I'd imagine, be no one.

I would always have given the guts of a paper to my classes the week before easter so I'd have time to really correct it and give decent feedback and to assess what I needed to cover.

km79 · 24-02-2021 11:25PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Why on earth would they not be sitting the exam like the rest of their class. I have tests regularly enough, the kids know I'll find another time to make them sit it if they don't at the normal time. If I need an exam to assess particular parts of the course to get an overall picture of where the students are at and how they would respond to choice and time pressure I'll be doing that, and I'll happily explain why to anyone who cares to ask, which will, I'd imagine, be no one.

I would always have given the guts of a paper to my classes the week before easter so I'd have time to really correct it and give decent feedback and to assess what I needed to cover.

That’s different to blocking off a full week at least for two 3 hour exams a day at a time when students are just after returning to the classroom though ?
I can not see the value in that this year . That’s leaving aside all the logistics and that there are only two mock companies , mocks cost money etc etc
A full “mock “ can be given over a few class periods though. For my subject (biology ) I used to do a second mock myself in May like that

I do not think most schools can stand over running “Mocks” as they normally would operate
There is nothing to stop individual teachers running their own though over a couple of classes

carr62 · 25-02-2021 12:33AM

Can someone please explain to me the situation with oral exams for languages ? If a student is opting to take a calculated grade, does that mean he needs to sit the oral, so the teacher can use it as material for the calculated grade, or can he choose to not sit the oral and still be given a grade? Thanks.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 25-02-2021 12:37AM

carr62 wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me the situation with oral exams for languages ? If a student is opting to take a calculated grade, does that mean he needs to sit the oral, so the teacher can use it as material for the calculated grade, or can he choose to not sit the oral and still be given a grade? Thanks.

As far as I know, if the student is goj g for accredited grade only they do not sit the oral

Have double checked this with a few people I'd trust from other schools.

carr62 · 25-02-2021 12:44AM

Thanks for the reply jimmytwotimes. I thought that was the case too, until my son announced today that all his French class have to sit the oral exam, regardless if they are taking accredited grades or not. Perhaps it's a case of the teacher waiting on clarification, and that might change next week after they get back to school.

deiseindublin · 25-02-2021 12:46AM

I really hope it's not students own language teachers that will be doing the orals. Doesn't seem impartial when they are also the person giving the CG.

French Toast · 25-02-2021 01:19AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

I really hope it's not students own language teachers that will be doing the orals. Doesn't seem impartial when they are also the person giving the CG.

In a meeting recently our principal alluded to a point where schools will share/swap teachers locally to do the orals. Can't remember the precise wording, but that was the gist.

Wombatman · 25-02-2021 01:39AM

French Toast wrote: »

In a meeting recently our principal alluded to a point where schools will share/swap teachers locally to do the orals. Can't remember the precise wording, but that was the gist.

Letter says it should be a teacher from the school.

French Toast · 25-02-2021 01:45AM

Wombatman wrote: »

Letter says it should be a teacher from the school.

So, for example, Irish teachers would just swap classes with a colleague and assess each other's group?

deiseindublin · 25-02-2021 02:05AM

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

History Queen · 25-02-2021 08:10AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

In some situations there will be no one to swop with. We have only one German teacher in our school.

Newbie20 · 25-02-2021 09:19AM

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

Rosita · 25-02-2021 10:36AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

Treppen · 25-02-2021 10:40AM

Newbie20 wrote: »

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

That's my understanding too.
Watch this space for future orals!! Might save the SEC a bit of money.

am_zarathustra · 25-02-2021 10:43AM

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability. With you own students, consciously or unconsciously, you know their strengths and weaknesses so that will colour what you ask. They aren't reading from a script or a set of questions like the old JC optional oral.

Rosita · 25-02-2021 10:52AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability.

It is meant to happen organically but the examiners knows within two sentences what the student's level is and that automatically colours the conversation and nature of the questions anyway. But that's just my experience as an examiner. Legislating for something is another matter.

deiseindublin · 25-02-2021 11:03AM

As a parent, I wouldn't even trust this teacher to ask the questions tbh. Won't say any more but have plenty reason.

Wombatman · 25-02-2021 11:04AM

Newbie20 wrote: »

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

Yes. But in the situation where the PG grading teacher is the facilitator, they will have difficulty preventing the oral from influencing the PG.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 25-02-2021 11:09AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

As a parent, I wouldn't even trust this teacher to ask the questions tbh. Won't say any more but have plenty reason.

They mute? Asking questions can't be that difficult

am_zarathustra · 25-02-2021 11:36AM

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability. With you own students, consciously or unconsciously, you know their strengths and weaknesses so that will colour what you ask. They aren't reading from a script or a set of questions like the old JC optional oral.

History Queen · 25-02-2021 11:48AM

Tui instructions to members just uploaded to TUI app

Dear Colleagues,
As recently as 24th February, a letter issued by the Department to school Principals failed to
provide clarity and instead created uncertainty that has led to some schools misinterpreting
the process.
The TUI’s advice, at this point, is to continue, insofar as possible, to complete the
curriculum, including projects and coursework.
Teachers must wait for the official guidelines to issue and must not, at this stage,
commence planning for any alternatives.
The TUI, in order to assist members, in relation to the weeks and months ahead is initially
providing the guidance attached – separate document – “Leaving Certificate 2021 Guidance
for TUI members - 25 Feb 2021”.
This guidance document:
• sets out the options available to students
• explains what results the students will receive and how they can appeal such results
• states that mock examinations must not take place
• details what is known to date on the SEC-Accredited Grades Process
• describes TUI’s position that all projects and coursework must be completed, insofar
as possible. It also clearly states that teachers do not have to facilitate Orals for
their own students. Facilitating Orals will be an entirely voluntary process and does
not form any part of your contract as a teacher
• sets out the timeline for completing the estimated percentage mark process and
• unambiguously explains that the TUI has secured a ‘no precedent’ agreement
The advice (attached) will be updated once more information becomes available.

Mrsmum · 25-02-2021 12:28PM

My son's class had an assembly this morning. Told mocks were going ahead beginning week 8th March including during the weekend ! Some students asked if they had to do them if they were opting for AG. The answer was every student must do them. A student said she understood they were not to be used for AG but how would they not colour teacher's decision. Told if you do well they will colour your teacher's decision on your grade positively.

History Queen · 25-02-2021 12:44PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

My son's class had an assembly this morning. Told mocks were going ahead beginning week 8th March including during the weekend ! Some students asked if they had to do them if they were opting for AG. The answer was every student must do them. A student said she understood they were not to be used for AG but how would they not colour teacher's decision. Told if you do well they will colour your teacher's decision on your grade positively.

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Mrsmum · 25-02-2021 12:49PM

History Queen wrote: »

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Ah I was just passing on what's happening in one school really. It's a bit confusing though reading the post saying guidance from TUI is mocks are not to go ahead when they are in some schools.

History Queen · 25-02-2021 12:59PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ah I was just passing on what's happening in one school really. It's a bit confusing though reading the post saying guidance from TUI is mocks are not to go ahead when they are in some schools.

The problem is official guidance and details (as usual)have not been issued in a timely fashion. Then schools are left to interpret guidance on an individual basid. Recipe for disaster.

Personally I think any student sitting the exam who wants a go at a mock should be given the opportunity. That being said I couldn't justify supporting 2 weeks of mocks when the reason the choice of exams or Accredited grades was offered was primarily due to complaints about loss of face to face classes.

There's now a few teachers in our school talking about offering students who wish to, the opportunity to sit mocks after school, on a purely voluntary basis. Waiting on guidance to see.

Mrsmum · 25-02-2021 01:13PM

History Queen wrote: »

The problem is official guidance and details (as usual)have not been issued in a timely fashion. Then schools are left to interpret guidance on an individual basid. Recipe for disaster.

Personally I think any student sitting the exam who wants a go at a mock should be given the opportunity. That being said I couldn't justify supporting 2 weeks of mocks when the reason the choice of exams or Accredited grades was offered was primarily due to complaints about loss of face to face classes.

There's now a few teachers in our school talking about offering students who wish to, the opportunity to sit mocks after school, on a purely voluntary basis. Waiting on guidance to see.

Yes I would say students who are taking AGs will not welcome doing the mocks but they are a benefit, even just time management, organisation, issues nothing to do with knowledge, for students who want to sit the exams.

Wombatman · 25-02-2021 01:20PM

History Queen wrote: »

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Guidance from who, the TUI or The Department? Didn't think DES issued any advice to cancel mocks?

Bobtheman · 25-02-2021 01:55PM

Bottom line no teacher will be forced to work Easter.
If you give into school pressure that's your business.
Given the way a lot of young teachers don't bother attending union meetings and climb over their colleagues for the stipends of promotion- you will get some who will gladly do it.
Leave them off.
The department created this farce. Let them iron out the details. Stop thinking above your pay grades people.
There are people on 6 figure salaries to do that.

The way forward for LC2021

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