The way forward for LC2021

Rosita

Hopontop wrote: »

I’ve actually been going into school to teach (school has excellent broadband and we have none at home). I have a great setup at the moment using one of the science labs (I don’t have my own room), using a desktop and laptop with a coffee machine in the prep room beside it!

Now I’ve just realized I’ll have to go back to moving rooms (and hope that the teachers whose rooms they are, are not planning on basing themselves there)
Not the end of the world but another headache on top of everything else

Did your school retain the system with the teachers having their own room? I thought most schools had classes static and teachers moving.

Hopontop

Rosita wrote: »

Did your school retain the system with the teachers having their own room? I thought most schools had classes static and teachers moving.

Ya we kept it that students moved (although with prioritising 6th years in larger rooms, a lot of teachers ended up moving too so as to keep as many in the classroom as possible. We used a large studyhall for the overflow of students. Worked well after a couple of weeks)

Str8outtaWuhan

Purefrank128 wrote: »

The statement says that the (external) examination of the coursework or oral component does not form part of the Accredited Grade. It does not say that a teacher's estimation of a student's ability at that component does not form part of a (properly weighted) predicted mark.

I wonder are many schools making their students do the 2nd or 3rd component regardless under the guise of this ?

Rosita

Purefrank128 wrote: »

The statement says that the (external) examination of the coursework or oral component does not form part of the Accredited Grade.

It doesn't. Here's what it says verbatim: "The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process". That's lifted directly form the statement.

The (external) part is your insertion and is not part of the statement. The fact that you need to insert it shows that the statement does not in fact make this clear.

It is either appallingly badly written and your interpretation is correct, or else it is in fact the case that "the oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process" which would be extraordinary. But this extraordinariness is the only reason to disbelieve because the statement is ambiguous to put it mildly.

Purefrank128

Rosita wrote: »

It doesn't. Here's what it says verbatim: "The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process". That's lifted directly form the statement.

The (external) part is your insertion and is not part of the statement. The fact that you need to insert it shows that the statement does not in fact make this clear.

It is either appallingly badly written and your interpretation is correct, or else it is in fact the case that "the oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process" which would be extraordinary. But this extraordinariness is the only reason to disbelieve because the statement is ambiguous to put it mildly.

Surely the phrase "of the examination" must mean of the external, SEC assessment, no? At the moment there is nothing which says that a school's assessment of oral/practical skills cannot be part of the predicted mark. But I agree 100%, the statement is highly ambiguous and needs a lot of clarification, and soon.

Treppen

The department are notorious for putting in ambiguities on purpose.

Buys them time for others to come up with proposals, because they sure as hell haven't a clue.

pandoraj09

Rosita wrote: »

"The Minister’s strongly held view is that students must be afforded the choice as to whether to sit the examinations, including the oral and coursework components, as it would be entirely unfair to students to require them to participate in these elements, given the disruption in learning which has occurred. The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process.

I don't understand this. Logically this is saying that an Irish teacher in arriving at an Accredited Grade/predicted grade should estimate the student's prospects based on only the written part (50% if you exclude the listening). How is this equitable if the idea is that Accredited Grades are exactly the same as the actual exam?

A very good point. 100 marks to be very easily obtained by copying out sentences from the 2 comprehensions, both at Higher and Ordinary. No real ability being shown apart from the ability to word match! I would have thought myself that the AG should include the teacher's estimate as to how the student would have done in the Oral and Aural too? Maybe I'm wrong. At OL most do appallingly badly in the Aural.

pandoraj09

This is annoying me now!! So in Irish and MFL are we now expected to arrive at an AG just based on how the students will perform in the written part of the exam?? I'll have to look through the document. If that is the case the whole thing is a joke. The Oral almost always pushes up their grade. Marks are easily achieved to get a C grade though last year someone, (I can't remember who, Emma O K was quoting her), said that the average mark in the Orals was 80%. I've been examining for 30 years and never was this the case. Anyway, I'm really confused.

Rosita

pandoraj09 wrote: »

This is annoying me now!! So in Irish and MFL are we now expected to arrive at an AG just based on how the students will perform in the written part of the exam?? I'll have to look through the document. If that is the case the whole thing is a joke. The Oral almost always pushes up their grade. Marks are easily achieved to get a C grade though last year someone, (I can't remember who, Emma O K was quoting her), said that the average mark in the Orals was 80%. I've been examining for 30 years and never was this the case. Anyway, I'm really confused.

To be fair, in any walk of life 'averages' are almost always pointless indicators. What's the point of an average when you have Gaeltacht schools, Gaelscoileanna, very strong students in regular schools, all in the mix with people who if they stayed at it until they had grey hair wouldn't make a fist of it. How meaningless is that average?

It reminds me of that pointless exercise every year of comparing our exam results with the notional 'national average' just because it ticks a box for the Principal. People love averages because they are calculated effortlessly and have an 'official' look about them but they are meaningless.


As for "so in Irish and MFL are we now expected to arrive at an AG just based on how the students will perform in the written part of the exam??" - maybe not (it seems implausible that they could pull such a stunt). But the (by the looks of it) hurriedly-written and not properly proof-read document that came out on foot of the announcement gives rise to that impression.

deiseindublin

Any French Teachers here?
Looking for a favour to help tracking down an answer guide for an older Folens book, doesn't seem to appear on Folens Hive system.

I'd love a PM if you can help.
Thanks.

Alex86Eire

Anyone hear that the JMB are advising not to use mocks for the accredited grades?

am_zarathustra

Why wouldn't you? Same as any exam really but timed and usually the right length. I'll be setting my own but I can't see the issue with using them as a piece of the puzzle. Have the JMB released advice?

LW2018

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Anyone hear that the JMB are advising not to use mocks for the accredited grades?

We were to be updated on the situation following the JMB meeting this afternoon but we didn't hear anything as of yet anyway. It was largely (or completely) based around the State Exams.

alroley

LW2018 wrote: »

We were to be updated on the situation following the JMB meeting this afternoon but we didn't hear anything as of yet anyway. It was largely (or completely) based around the State Exams.

Our principal suddenly decided to cancel mocks today after telling everyone they'd definitely go ahead for the past number of weeks.

Alex86Eire

LW2018 wrote: »

We were to be updated on the situation following the JMB meeting this afternoon but we didn't hear anything as of yet anyway. It was largely (or completely) based around the State Exams.

Ok. Had heard it from someone whose principal told them so wasn't sure how reliable the information was.

Comer1

The Minister’s strongly held view is that students must be afforded the choice as to whether to sit the examinations, including the oral and coursework components, as it would be entirely unfair to students to require them to participate in these elements, given the disruption in learning which has occurred. The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process.

My understanding of that is that students who opt for accredited grades do not have to submit coursework. I would assume I can still give them an accredited grade based on predicted achievement in the coursework as well as the exam.

The original submission date of the DCG project was seven school days after Christmas return. The last official communication we received (that I know of) was that students would be given seven school days from whenever we returned to school to complete the project. So on Monday morning can i tell my DCG students opting for accredited grades to chill out for the next seven school days while the rest of us complete the project? It's something I'd really like to have a bit of clarity on from the DES.

French Toast

Rosita wrote: »

"The Minister’s strongly held view is that students must be afforded the choice as to whether to sit the examinations, including the oral and coursework components, as it would be entirely unfair to students to require them to participate in these elements, given the disruption in learning which has occurred. The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process.

Where's that quote from? Do we have fairly concrete evidence to say that orals won't be part of the predicted grades?

Irish teacher here. That would add a significant twist to the tale.

Comer1

French Toast wrote: »

Where's that quote from? Do we have fairly concrete evidence to say that orals won't be part of the predicted grades?

Irish teacher here. That would add a significant twist to the tale.

I got it from here

galwayhooker

amacca wrote: »

For secondary I'd assume (and I'm aware of the possible consequences of assuming )

From school if timetabled directly after...and school have adequate broadband (assuming not all staff need to go live from school at dame time)

From home when you can get home have time to do so

I'm assuming that's the shape of it

Doable if its not a long commute or school has broadband up to task

Not doable if you have a long commute to work and school internet not up to it.

Room you are in with LC might not be be free straight after which would mean teachers looking for a free room (none of us have our own rooms remember this year) I’m In a very large school so wasting time looking for a room that might not be free.I have been doing all live classes but with no certainty of free classroom I have over a two hour round commute so I will definitely have to look at pre recorded classes next week for other classes when in school with Leaving Certs.

Rosita

French Toast wrote: »

Where's that quote from? Do we have fairly concrete evidence to say that orals won't be part of the predicted grades?

Irish teacher here. That would add a significant twist to the tale.

Twist in the tale hardly cover it. It seems too strange to actually be true and I am, until otherwise confirmed, assuming it is just another example of an inability to communicate clearly a fairly simple message. Some people are like students in that their primary objective when writing something seems to be to fill the page at all costs.

rainbowtrout

French Toast wrote: »

Where's that quote from? Do we have fairly concrete evidence to say that orals won't be part of the predicted grades?

Irish teacher here. That would add a significant twist to the tale.

The LC Oral and Coursework are specific components of the LC subjects they are part of. That doesn't stop any teacher deciding to hold an oral for Irish/French/German as an in class assessment between now and May and using it as part of a predicted grade.

Treppen

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Anyone hear that the JMB are advising not to use mocks for the accredited grades?

Maybe it just levels the playing field if everyone agrees and just goes their own way with grades!
Reminds me of the prisoner's dilemma.

Mocks could be really compromised and of various standards. Mocks done at home!! Really!!

But then again you kind of owe it to students who are going to sit the actual LC exam, no?

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The LC Oral and Coursework are specific components of the LC subjects they are part of. That doesn't stop any teacher deciding to hold an oral for Irish/French/German as an in class assessment between now and May and using it as part of a predicted grade.

But the instruction from the Dept of Ed is that they do not form part of the Accredited Grades process which taken to its logical conclusion suggests that a teacher is not entitled to include Orals and coursework. It's an absurd prospect obviously but we shouldn't have to rely on assumptions or interpretations. If what has been stated is in fact not the case then it shouldn't have been stated.

Icsics

Yes, seems the JMB are saying mocks cannot he used for accredited grades

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, seems the JMB are saying mocks cannot he used for accredited grades

Isn’t this the same as last year or am I wrong ?
Fairly sure we were told not to include then either ?
And last year they were “proper “ mocks . Can’t see many mocks being run this year

deiseindublin

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, seems the JMB are saying mocks cannot he used for accredited grades

Was there any statement or press release I wonder? Not doubting it, just wondering if it's actually official.

sayno

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, seems the JMB are saying mocks cannot he used for accredited grades

Anything official from the JMB?

Jane98

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, seems the JMB are saying mocks cannot he used for accredited grades

Yes, we were told that this morning by our Principal.

Icsics

Don’t see it actually written anywhere, but JMB meeting was yesterday & has come from there. Dept would badly want to issue guidelines

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

Isn’t this the same as last year or am I wrong ?
Fairly sure we were told not to include then either ?
And last year they were “proper “ mocks . Can’t see many mocks being run this year

I don't know about JMB's advice last year, but the official guidance was that they could be included but should not be given undue weight because courses not finished, students often improve further, and the concern of them being leaked if using bought papers.

Personally I don't think it's acceptable for JMB to issue any such instruction unless it is an official SEC/DES decision applying to every school.