The way forward for LC2021

Mrsmum · 22-02-2021 04:26PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The ones in my class going for high points are all going predictive as they know they're safe at the top of the class. They only taking 2/3 subjects where they think they can better their averages and are avoiding subjects with orals as that'll mess up study plans as they're on over Easter.

Different approaches to logic on this.

You must be teaching my son as this is exactly his viewpoint ! He feels he could only do worse in the exam for two subjects than his class tests scores which in fairness could not be bested. Basically he says it's class tests versus the full course and that is exactly why he feels safer with CGs. I say to him why not sit them anyway and he says that's time taken from other subjects that he needs to do better at than what his teacher thinks of him. He is also not going to sit Irish as not good at it and not doing it means, as you say, no orals or as he says no time wasted on orals. He will do the other four subject hoping by concentration on four for study purposes and especially when CGs are done and dusted in the last month he can up his marks there . I would be friendly with other parents whose LC children are aiming high and are of the same mindset. One friend of mine told me the Principal told her that her daughter need have no worries about CGs as she has shown her worth as a student and they (the school) are proud of her. Words to that effect. Small school unlike my son,'s school.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 04:31PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Jesus

Had a chat with LCs today as to what they plan to do.

A few sitting paper trying to get a grade I'm gonna give them anyway.

How can we not tell them and save them the needless stress

You can't, because you can't guarantee what you give them is what they'll end up with. And it is very much their decision. I won't be trying to persuade mine one way or the other.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 04:32PM

shesty wrote: »

Ah here, it is probably better for them to pit themselves against themselves, than against a bell curve that could go any way.That would be my view as a student anyway, if I was facing this....I have a degree of control over what I can do for an exam, but none over a predicted grade and the ensuing "normalisation".

Very true. They can't fare out any worse than their own ability in the exam.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 04:35PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You must be teaching my son as this is exactly his viewpoint ! He feels he could only do worse in the exam for two subjects than his class tests scores which in fairness could not be bested. Basically he says it's class tests versus the full course and that is exactly why he feels safer with CGs. I say to him why not sit them anyway and he says that's time taken from other subjects that he needs to do better at than what his teacher thinks of him. He is also not going to sit Irish as not good at it and not doing it means, as you say, no orals or as he says no time wasted on orals. He will do the other four subject hoping by concentration on four for study purposes and especially when CGs are done and dusted in the last month he can up his marks there . I would be friendly with other parents whose LC children are aiming high and are of the same mindset. One friend of mine told me the Principal told her that her daughter need have no worries about CGs as she has shown her worth as a student and they (the school) are proud of her. Words to that effect. Small school unlike my son,'s school.

That principal is an idiot. They have no control over what happens the predicted grades once they are submitted. The principal can't guarantee anything and shouldn't be discussing the grades with parents in the first place.

This is why we shouldn't have teachers grading students in this country.

Random sample · 22-02-2021 04:37PM

I wouldn’t put any student off sitting the exam, its win win if they do.

I wouldn’t have an expectation that class tests equal leaving certs results either. Teachers won’t be allowed to tell you what they expect you to get, but a h1 in a class test does not mean you would get that when faced with the full exam.

Mrsmum · 22-02-2021 04:44PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That principal is an idiot. They have no control over what happens the predicted grades once they are submitted. The principal can't guarantee anything and shouldn't be discussing the grades with parents in the first place.

This is why we shouldn't have teachers grading students in this country.

I wouldn't mind but apart from other problems with it, word gets around and other parents of LC students might not be best pleased with her endorsement by the principal. But that's the kind of stuff that is going on.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 04:59PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I wouldn't mind but apart from other problems with it, word gets around and other parents of LC students might not be best pleased with his endorsement by the principal. But that's the kind of stuff that is going on.

Yes and if he doesn't endorse their child in the same way, they are not going to be too confident in the predicted grades for their child, and I wouldn't blame them.

Mrsmum · 22-02-2021 05:24PM

So you teachers do have an influence on the students. As I said, there I am, getting nowhere, telling my son he might be safer sitting a particular subject and why. No, no, he knows best. But just now he tells me he is after "revaluating" sitting that subject. His teacher told them she gave three H1s last year and only one student kept the grade. It's that simple.

Rosita · 22-02-2021 05:31PM

shesty wrote: »

Ah here, it is probably better for them to pit themselves against themselves, than against a bell curve that could go any way.That would be my view as a student anyway, if I was facing this....I have a degree of control over what I can do for an exam, but none over a predicted grade and the ensuing "normalisation".

Having control over an exam does not necessarily equate to the exam going well. Also there seems to be assumption in this that an exam is done in a vacuum and the mark is beyond contamination...................but we all have heard plenty of stories of marking schemes being altered if grade are too low or too high.

noplacehere · 22-02-2021 05:45PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

So you teachers do have an influence on the students. As I said, there I am, getting nowhere, telling my son he might be safer sitting a particular subject and why. No, no, he knows best. But just now he tells me he is after "revaluating" sitting that subject. His teacher told them she gave three H1s last year and only one student kept the grade. It's that simple.

This is the issue particularly with top students in class relying on the predicted grades. They will be put in a washing machine algorithm and it’s hoping that it falls nicely and you don’t get downgraded

Newbie20 · 22-02-2021 06:16PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You must be teaching my son as this is exactly his viewpoint ! He feels he could only do worse in the exam for two subjects than his class tests scores which in fairness could not be bested. Basically he says it's class tests versus the full course and that is exactly why he feels safer with CGs. I say to him why not sit them anyway and he says that's time taken from other subjects that he needs to do better at than what his teacher thinks of him. He is also not going to sit Irish as not good at it and not doing it means, as you say, no orals or as he says no time wasted on orals. He will do the other four subject hoping by concentration on four for study purposes and especially when CGs are done and dusted in the last month he can up his marks there . I would be friendly with other parents whose LC children are aiming high and are of the same mindset. One friend of mine told me the Principal told her that her daughter need have no worries about CGs as she has shown her worth as a student and they (the school) are proud of her. Words to that effect. Small school unlike my son,'s school.

I know you have just said anyway that your son is re-evaluating but I think it’s very important that he realises that the average he has from class tests will not necessarily be his predicted grade.

A teacher has to make a call based on tests and work in the classroom as to how a student would do in a full exam with all topics included. For example, I teach Maths and there are many questions that you can practice for and prepare. But then there are difficult problem solving questions and not many students can successfully navigate these questions. If for example your son had been doing very well with all the basics but had shown that he struggled with tricky problem solving questions, then his teacher may not consider him a H1 or maybe even not H2.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 06:28PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

So you teachers do have an influence on the students. As I said, there I am, getting nowhere, telling my son he might be safer sitting a particular subject and why. No, no, he knows best. But just now he tells me he is after "revaluating" sitting that subject. His teacher told them she gave three H1s last year and only one student kept the grade. It's that simple.

Well there are so many factors at play. The teacher could have given 3 H1s in good faith to students that deserved them and she may have got similar results in previous years and then saw them downgraded. On the other hand she could have been handing out H1s like penny sweets and they were brought down as a result. None of us know what is correct.

What she did say is factual though. The marks she awarded were downgraded so she is telling the students that whatever she gives may not be the final result. It’s completely out of her control.

This is part of the reason that teachers were supportive of the exams taking place.

Treppen · 22-02-2021 06:53PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That principal is an idiot. They have no control over what happens the predicted grades once they are submitted. The principal can't guarantee anything and shouldn't be discussing the grades with parents in the first place.

This is why we shouldn't have teachers grading students in this country.

Put it like this.

Principals have the final say over the grades...... Before correcting me.... There's a lot a "friendly chat" with a teacher can do to change their position on a grade.

If the principal is cute they'll manage the results in line with the national averages for subjects. Then they can ensure the really high achieving students are looked after.

It's not all about the teachers' opinion... and it never will be.

shesty · 22-02-2021 07:00PM

Rosita wrote: »

Having control over an exam does not necessarily equate to the exam going well. Also there seems to be assumption in this that an exam is done in a vacuum and the mark is beyond contamination...................but we all have heard plenty of stories of marking schemes being altered if grade are too low or too high.

Yep that's true.It depends on what your view is.That would be mine.That way it is down to me on the day, and I would be ok with that.But everyone views things differently.

am_zarathustra · 22-02-2021 07:05PM

Treppen wrote: »

Put it like this.

Principals have the final say over the grades...... Before correcting me.... There's a lot a "friendly chat" with a teacher can do to change their position on a grade.

If the principal is cute they'll manage the results in line with the national averages for subjects. Then they can ensure the really high achieving students are looked after.

It's not all about the teachers' opinion... and it never will be.

We have no idea what the weighting will be this year or what factors will be taken into account. Even if a principal wants to "look after" someone (I suspect not the norm) the weighting might screw them for any other reason. I'm still unsure why some of my students were downgraded and some not and I looked at all their supposed metrics.

The SEC also usually do everything blind, they may throw every individual student into an algorithm based on JC grades and get it to spit out a curve, we actually don't know. I don't think anyone can guarantee anyone a grade, I'd say your safe if your PGs can all drop a full grade and you still have enough points.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 07:13PM

Treppen wrote: »

Put it like this.

Principals have the final say over the grades...... Before correcting me.... There's a lot a "friendly chat" with a teacher can do to change their position on a grade.

If the principal is cute they'll manage the results in line with the national averages for subjects. Then they can ensure the really high achieving students are looked after.

It's not all about the teachers' opinion... and it never will be.

Principal doesn’t teach my classes. He’s not getting a final say. He’d know better than try a stunt like that with me.

I’d see a principals role in this as someone to check over the results, first for genuine errors and then to see if there’s anything way out of line with the norm or what might be expected for those students.

Wombatman · 22-02-2021 07:24PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Principal doesn’t teach my classes. He’s not getting a final say. He’d know better than try a stunt like that with me.

I’d see a principals role in this as someone to check over the results, first for genuine errors and then to see if there’s anything way out of line with the norm or what might be expected for those students.

Absolutely. If it's not about the teachers data and opinion you'd wonder what other factors might come into play in the principle wanting to 'look after' a student. Student of a PTA member, relation, from a 'good' family, regular church going family, local sports star, etc.?

The "friendly chat" and "looked after" bits sound like something out of The Sopranos. Worrying.

Treppen · 22-02-2021 07:35PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Principal doesn’t teach my classes. He’s not getting a final say. He’d know better than try a stunt like that with me.

I’d see a principals role in this as someone to check over the results, first for genuine errors and then to see if there’s anything way out of line with the norm or what might be expected for those students.

Ah yeah, but you know the way.
CIDs looming.
AP posts coming up.
Hours available.
Considering your application for job share.

am_zarathustra · 22-02-2021 07:38PM

Treppen wrote: »

Ah yeah, but you know the way.
CIDs looming.
AP posts coming up.
Hours available.
Considering your application for job share.

Jesus, I'd just leave a school if that was the type of craic going on. There's being nice to management and there is compromising your own integrity.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 08:06PM

Treppen wrote: »

Ah yeah, but you know the way.
CIDs looming.
AP posts coming up.
Hours available.
Considering your application for job share.

If my principal was trying to persuade me to change a result to something that wasn't deserved, I'd just get straight onto my union and tell them to give him a call. That's what I pay my subscription for.

It would be a foolhardy principal who would try pulling that stunt. Also if a principal was that corrupt it won't be the first sniff of shenanigans in the school. Those who are wise to it will do their jobs properly one way or another.

Treppen · 22-02-2021 08:07PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Absolutely. If it's not about the teachers data and opinion you'd wonder what other factors might come into play in the principle wanting to 'look after' a student. Student of a PTA member, relation, from a 'good' family, regular church going family, local sports star, etc.?

The "friendly chat" and "looked after" bits sound like something out of The Sopranos. Worrying.

Not saying it's common, but it happens.

Mardy Bum · 22-02-2021 08:09PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That principal is an idiot. They have no control over what happens the predicted grades once they are submitted. The principal can't guarantee anything and shouldn't be discussing the grades with parents in the first place.

This is why we shouldn't have teachers grading students in this country.

There is a certain level of unprofessionalism that goes ignored/is celebrated in the profession.

rainbowtrout · 22-02-2021 08:14PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There is a certain level of unprofessionalism that goes ignored/is celebrated in the profession.

Oh I am aware. See it many a day at work.

Mrsmum · 22-02-2021 08:21PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If my principal was trying to persuade me to change a result to something that wasn't deserved, I'd just get straight onto my union and tell them to give him a call. That's what I pay my subscription for.

It would be a foolhardy principal who would try pulling that stunt. Also if a principal was that corrupt it won't be the first sniff of shenanigans in the school. Those who are wise to it will do their jobs properly one way or another.

Can I just say, not defending the Principal at all but in the case I spoke about, the student is truly as bright as bright can be.
She is likely to do brilliantly anyway, like the rest of her family and everyone in the school probably knows it. I'm only saying that as I'm getting the impression people think total skulduggery is going on where a student is being looked after for reasons totally unrelated to their work.

wirelessdude01 · 22-02-2021 08:50PM

Reading stories of results "being looked after". If rubbish like that is going on then no wonder our profession is held in such low esteem. No principal or teacher should be telling any student that they'll be fine with regards to their AG. No one can say that with any certainty once the code does its job.

deiseindublin · 22-02-2021 09:32PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

......teacher told them she gave three H1s last year and only one student kept the grade. It's that simple.

Fair play to the teacher for being so honest with them. It's the exact dose of reality that they need.

On another note, my own child's school is supposedly starting Mocks next Monday, their first day back but no email to parents. Feels a little bit callous after not being in since pre-Christmas. The students are up to hi-doh.

wirelessdude01 · 22-02-2021 09:44PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Fair play to the teacher for being so honest with them. It's the exact dose of reality that they need.

On another note, my own child's school is supposedly starting Mocks next Monday, their first day back but no email to parents. Feels a little bit callous after not being in since pre-Christmas. The students are up to hi-doh.

Did a teacher let that slip?

am_zarathustra · 22-02-2021 09:49PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There is a certain level of unprofessionalism that goes ignored/is celebrated in the profession.

If you are permanent then you have nothing to fear. Very easy to just say no and to call the union if required. It shouldn't be up to younger, non permanent staff to stand up in this situation. Unprofessionalism thrives when left unchallenged

deiseindublin · 22-02-2021 10:37PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Did a teacher let that slip?

`They were told in classes by teachers, but as a parent I got an email home about Gov Guidelines pending etc, but Mocks not mentioned.

Seems insanity to do them Day 1 back, at least leave them back into the school for a couple of days. I'm not usually a fuss pot, and neither is said child, but is really put out at doing them immediately.

I suppose you can't please everybody all of the time.

Warbeastrior · 22-02-2021 10:39PM

deiseindublin wrote:

Seems insanity to do them Day 1 back, at least leave them back into the school for a couple of days. I'm not usually a fuss pot, and neither is said child, but is really put out at doing them immediately.

If that is going to happen that its most likely because the schools are going to have to do it.
They have been thrown under the bus with a lack of information surrounding orals, tasks etc

The way forward for LC2021

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