When will it all end?

NeuralNetwork · 21-02-2021 06:34PM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Dont we spend about 21BN on health and loads of the country still need private health insurance?

That’s not what I mean. Most of that goes on expensive, high tech medicine like cancer care, pricy drugs and surgical systems etc etc and all the things that extend our lives and not into public health programmes to prevent disease etc. That hasn’t been a feature of health systems in the developed world since the mid 20th century when TB and polio were effectively deemed over as threats.

I mean things like vaccination clinics, community nursing etc etc and public health monitoring and the kinds of infrastructure and expertise that could control an epidemic. They’d become as relevant as steam engine engineers.

You’ll find most public health research in the west is focused on things like obesity and health promotion, not control of disease outbreaks.

I think that’s likely why many countries in the developed world didn’t react very effectively. It’s just not something we ever really contemplated happening and because medicine is so high tech focused, it was assumed it wouldn’t be a significant challenge if it did happen.

Allinall · 21-02-2021 06:34PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

Correcting your incorrect post.

You said the curfew was gone. It isn’t.

Ginger n Lemon · 21-02-2021 06:34PM

Allinall wrote: »

You’re delusional if you think 95% of businesses are shut down.

You wanna give a more accurate %?

Businesses where external people go to. Obviously hospitals, meat plants, aldis can't be shut down really can they? Unless you think starvation costs at preventing the spread is something that can be considered. Knowing you ... lol.

hynesie08 · 21-02-2021 06:35PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

Is there a curfew in the Netherlands or not?

There is, you are a waffler.

Ginger n Lemon · 21-02-2021 06:36PM

Allinall wrote: »

Correcting your incorrect post.

You said the curfew was gone. It isn’t.

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation underpinning the country's coronavirus curfew late on Friday, ensuring that it will remain in force at least until early March despite a court order on Tuesday that it be scrapped.

This is from your article. Curfew was gone for few days, before desperate politicians drew up some more "hastily drawn up" rubbish.

What happens when appeal is rejected? I am sure you wont be linking that article :pac:

Come back to me next week will ya

ThunbergsAreGo · 21-02-2021 06:37PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

That’s not what I mean. Most of that goes on expensive, high tech medicine like cancer care, pricy drugs and surgical systems etc etc and all the things that extend our lives and not into public health programmes.

I mean things like vaccination clinics, community nursing etc etc and public health monitoring and the kinds of infrastructure and expertise that could control an epidemic. They’d become as relevant as steam engine engineers.

So general "health" and not just to fix things? Yeah that's true, but as you did very unsexy, and costly given our existing HSE IT systems are a sham.

Allinall · 21-02-2021 06:38PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You wanna give a more accurate %?

Businesses where external people go to. Obviously hospitals, meat plants, aldis can't be shut down really can they? Unless you think starvation costs at preventing the spread is something that can be considered. Knowing you ... lol.

Who the hell are external people?

Are you drunk?

NeuralNetwork · 21-02-2021 06:40PM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So general "health" and not just to fix things? Yeah that's true, but as you did very unsexy, and costly given our existing HSE IT systems are a sham.

It’s not unique to the Irish system. It’s just that when pandemics and epidemics weren’t a threat for 60 years or more, the services become redundant and wither.

I think that’s why we are all suffering from inability to provide a nuanced response though. You’re looking at systems trying to figure out how to do things they haven’t done in a very long time.

I think you’re confusing the concept and study of Public Health - a field within medicine and “public health” as in publicly funded universal health care systems. Same term gets used for both, but I was talking about the former.

Most high spend western systems focus their expenditure on fixing things - cancer care, cardiology, neurosciences, joint replacements, complex life extending or quality of life improving treatments, and simply have not had to focus on nuts and bolts of dealing with outbreaks of contagious diseases in a very long time.

The same applies to things like ICU facilities. The Irish system was too tight, but those aren’t facilities you need vast numbers of sitting there doing nothing either and there are reasons, like age profile of population, why the numbers vary.

For example, if you’ve a lot of people in their 70+ in your population you end up with more serious cardiac procedures, more pneumonia etc etc all of which need more ventilators. So if you compare youngest age group country with oldest, you’ll find differences in profiles of facilités too.

There’s a lot of stuff just wasn’t ever going to be ready for a pandemic.

The biggest issue we have impending for healthcare now is the massive backlog of all the stuff that hasn’t been done for months in what was already a system under pressure before this began.

The longer that stuff stays off line or on slow throughout due to having to deal with covid, the longer those queues get and the worse the outcomes for people are. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a fall in life expectancy in quite a lot of western countries and it will be due to knock on impacts of COVID on healthcare.

I’m not saying that you can feasibly do a lot more as the risks of infections are huge for a health facility, but it’s a mess and the vaccine programme is pretty much all that seems likely to resolve it.

In terms of opening up again, the absolutely key issue is accelerating the vaccine programme and that’s both an Irish and EU urgent need. Everything that can be thrown at it needs to be.

I would fault the U.K. response for pretty much everything else but they’re getting the vaccine programme spot on.

Ginger n Lemon · 21-02-2021 06:41PM

Allinall wrote: »

Who the hell are external people?

Are you drunk?

Customers. Customers.

Do meat plants have customers? no.
Do factories have customers? no.

Do restaurants have customers?
Do pubs have customers?
Do retail shops have customers?
Do cinemas have customers?

Seriously whats wrong with you today?

Very disappointing, I am off for a walk - I highly recommend one for you too.

46 Long · 21-02-2021 06:42PM

markodaly wrote: »

We are averaging 700-800 cases a day, and people are surprised and angry that we are NOT re-opening anytime soon?

Sure, lets just reopen for the craic and see what happens. It is not like we have tried it 3 times now.

Im so glad, the people here are just posting online and are not running the country.

Sure, lets lockdown 5 million people and bring the country to it's knees because 0.016% of the population are catching a disease with a 99% survival rate. For the craic like. Nothing to do with us being the living embodiment of a sunk cost fallacy.

Parachutes · 21-02-2021 06:42PM

xhomelezz wrote: »

Nope numbers would be low, cuz people can use their brains, that's why.

Unless there's a BLM protest, then half the country could turn up and not a squeak out of anyone.

Dr. Bre · 21-02-2021 06:42PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Customers. Customers.

Do meat plants have customers? no.
Do factories have customers? no.

Do restaurants have customers?
Do pubs have customers?
Do retail shops have customers?
Do cinemas have customers?

Seriously whats wrong with you today?

Very disappointing, I am off for a walk - I highly recommend one for you too.

Make sure you stay within the 5k

beauf · 21-02-2021 06:55PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Are you talking about the hysteria that is still strong in some? Deadly covid resulting in less deaths in 2020 in Ireland than 2019?

That is truly stupid. We finally agree :pac:

It's this thread thats hysterical.

There were no deaths from Covid in 2019, if we were to take what you said literally.

beauf · 21-02-2021 07:00PM

The Govt keeps bowing to popular opinion. So if there's enough social media pressure they will ease restrictions.

So you've nothing really to worry about.

xhomelezz · 21-02-2021 07:01PM

Parachutes wrote: »

Unless there's a BLM protest, then half the country could turn up and not a squeak out of anyone.

Yeah right. You are living somewhere else for sure.

xhomelezz · 21-02-2021 07:08PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Customers. Customers.

Do meat plants have customers? no.
Do factories have customers? no.

Do restaurants have customers?
Do pubs have customers?
Do retail shops have customers?
Do cinemas have customers?

Seriously whats wrong with you today?

Very disappointing, I am off for a walk - I highly recommend one for you too.

What's the conditions for workers there? Are they working close to each other? Are they afraid to call in sick etc..

end of the road · 21-02-2021 07:12PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Curfew is gone. They got what they wanted.

It is really end of the road for you in this thread isnt it? Credibility : 0.00

nope they got nothing.
curfew is still there.
thankfully the rioting was a big huge failure, the people of the netherlands just like here don't take kindly to people throwing paving slabs at police.

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Are you talking about the hysteria that is still strong in some? Deadly covid resulting in less deaths in 2020 in Ireland than 2019?

That is truly stupid. We finally agree

you mean deadly covid that, due to being controlled, isn't anywhere near as deadly as it could be if uncontrolled?

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

What I dont understand, and please correct me if i am wrong, 5% of businesses were shut down in July 2020. Cases were 5 - 10 per day throughout.

Now we have 6 weeks of 95% of businesses closed down, yet cases are 800-1000 per day and dont reduce.

I mean precautions? Really?

well it's simple really.
when we opened up at christmas, a small minority ran amuck, we ended up with the highest case numbers in the world, and now it is taking time for that number to reduce, which thankfully the numbers are reducing all be it not as quick as we would like.

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

curfew is still in place.
the rioters lost.
that's it.

the kelt · 21-02-2021 07:17PM

So when will it end?

Kinda been missed in the discussions to be fair.

Like I said previously take European countries on average reducing restrictions and add at last 6 to 8 weeks for Ireland to ease them.

Uk will be similar to Europe, maybe a little ahead.

Europe will have a relatively normal summer but all staycations with everything normal enough apart from big crowds at events say no more than 500. Obviously handwashing, masks in shops etc remain.

There will be no real travel this summer for any country in Europe to another

Here I expect if we are lucky to have pubs open with a substantial meal :rolleyes:
Possibly open in August, shops and restaurants maybe in June followed by lock down again in October whereas Europe won’t have a level of lockdown close to ours ever again but we will.

drunkmonkey · 21-02-2021 07:21PM

Why can't we listen to the advice from the WHO, restrictions should be on sick people and their contacts. Mike Ryan has being saying it from the start and reiterated it the other day.

""I've said this since the beginning, if you focus on cases, contacts and clusters, if you focus on restricting the movement of those who are sick or their contacts then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society", he said.

beauf · 21-02-2021 07:25PM

the kelt wrote: »

So when will it end?

Kinda been missed in the discussions to be fair.

Like I said previously take European countries on average reducing restrictions and add at last 6 to 8 weeks for Ireland to ease them.

Uk will be similar to Europe, maybe a little ahead.

Europe will have a relatively normal summer but all staycations with everything normal enough apart from big crowds at events say no more than 500. Obviously handwashing, masks in shops etc remain.

There will be no real travel this summer for any country in Europe to another

Here I expect if we are lucky to have pubs open with a substantial meal :rolleyes:
Possibly open in August, shops and restaurants maybe in June followed by lock down again in October whereas Europe won’t have a level of lockdown close to ours ever again but we will.

When do think we'll be able to travel around the country. I think end of may early June?

xhomelezz · 21-02-2021 07:27PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why can't we listen to the advice from the WHO, restrictions should be on sick people and their contacts. Mike Ryan has being saying it from the start and reiterated it the other day.

""I've said this since the beginning, if you focus on cases, contacts and clusters, if you focus on restricting the movement of those who are sick or their contacts then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society", he said.

Do we have swift test and contact tracing? Nope

Define sick please.

You do know the virus is highly contagious right?

beauf · 21-02-2021 07:27PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why can't we listen to the advice from the WHO, restrictions should be on sick people and their contacts. Mike Ryan has being saying it from the start and reiterated it the other day.

""I've said this since the beginning, if you focus on cases, contacts and clusters, if you focus on restricting the movement of those who are sick or their contacts then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society", he said.

Because you don't know who is sick, due to the high % of asymptomatic people.

I've been following the people living on boats etc. Around the world. They generally have to have a negative test before they are allowed to leave the boat.

drunkmonkey · 21-02-2021 07:32PM

beauf wrote: »

Because you don't know who is sick, due to the high % of asymptomatic people.

Really, someone should tell the WHO very irresponsible of them to suggest anything but lockdown.

end of the road · 21-02-2021 07:32PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation underpinning the country's coronavirus curfew late on Friday, ensuring that it will remain in force at least until early March despite a court order on Tuesday that it be scrapped.

This is from your article. Curfew was gone for few days, before desperate politicians drew up some more "hastily drawn up" rubbish.

What happens when appeal is rejected? I am sure you wont be linking that article

Come back to me next week will ya

curfew wasn't gone, it was still enforced dispite the court order.
it will still be enforced should the appeal be rejected, they will just write the legislation in a way that satisfies the courts.

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Customers. Customers.

Do meat plants have customers? no.
Do factories have customers? no.

Do restaurants have customers?
Do pubs have customers?
Do retail shops have customers?
Do cinemas have customers?

Seriously whats wrong with you today?

Very disappointing, I am off for a walk - I highly recommend one for you too.

do meat plants have customers? yes, they do, the supermarkets and suppliers to restaurants among others.
do factories have customers? yes, they do, those who buy the product that the factories are producing.
oh dear.

46 Long wrote: »

Sure, lets lockdown 5 million people and bring the country to it's knees because 0.016% of the population are catching a disease with a 99% survival rate. For the craic like. Nothing to do with us being the living embodiment of a sunk cost fallacy.

the country isn't being brought to it's knees.
it's not the likes of the hospitality and other industries which are closed which contribute the most and actually keep the show on the road, even if their contributions collectively are high.
covid has a majority survival rate but it's not in the 99% figure and the amount potentially vulnerable to it for all of the various reasons is said to be up to a million people.
and as well as that those vulnerable to all sorts if the health system became overwhelmed or god forbid collapsed under the weight of hospitalisations had we not bothered to control the spread meaning we would be a complete basket case.

Parachutes wrote: »

Unless there's a BLM protest, then half the country could turn up and not a squeak out of anyone.

nope, it would be overwhelmingly condemned just like the decision to go ahead last time was overwhelmingly condemned.

Parachutes · 21-02-2021 07:33PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why can't we listen to the advice from the WHO, restrictions should be on sick people and their contacts. Mike Ryan has being saying it from the start and reiterated it the other day.

""I've said this since the beginning, if you focus on cases, contacts and clusters, if you focus on restricting the movement of those who are sick or their contacts then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society", he said.

They defer to the WHO when it supports the lockdown agenda, otherwise the WHO is completely ignored. NPHET take the fore.

drunkmonkey · 21-02-2021 07:33PM

beauf wrote: »

I've been following the people living on boats etc. Around the world. They generally have to have a negative test before they are allowed to leave the boat.

We don't live on a boat, personal responsibility is enough, lockdown of healthy people is not required the WHO have said it.

xhomelezz · 21-02-2021 07:36PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

We don't live on a boat, personal responsibility is enough, lockdown of healthy people is not required the WHO have said it.

Could you point out where the WHO said that please.

drunkmonkey · 21-02-2021 07:39PM

xhomelezz wrote: »

Could you point out where the WHO said that please.

No do your own research.

aziz · 21-02-2021 07:39PM

xhomelezz wrote: »

Do we have swift test and contact tracing? Nope

Define sick please.

You do know the virus is highly contagious right?

I’m starting to doubt this,

My wife had it,myself and our two daughters didn’t
And I know now of a lot more cases of people in very close contact with a confirmed case didn’t catch it.

My wife when asked what’s it like,will say
“Flu”

end of the road · 21-02-2021 07:41PM

tommybrees wrote: »

Yup people with your attitude would have us still living under British rule. Or paying probably close to a thousand euro a year for water charges now.

nope, the protest against water charges had wide spread support thankfully as water charges are unjust.
protesting against public health measures on the other hand during a pandemic to deal with said pandemic isn't going to have the same support.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why can't we listen to the advice from the WHO, restrictions should be on sick people and their contacts. Mike Ryan has being saying it from the start and reiterated it the other day.

""I've said this since the beginning, if you focus on cases, contacts and clusters, if you focus on restricting the movement of those who are sick or their contacts then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society", he said.

because it does absolutely nothing in terms of controlling the virus, and you don't know exactly who or how many people have it due to asymptomatic cases.

When will it all end?

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