Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

PaulieC · 19-02-2021 04:28PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So if someone is killed due to how dangerous strand road currently while these delays are happening, and the cranks lose the court case because they are just being cranks and nothjj in by more. Could they be sued?

Do you have some metric that shows that the road is "dangerous" ? It can be a pain, sure, but I've never been involved in, seen or heard of anything happening on that road.

Seth Brundle · 19-02-2021 04:44PM

PaulieC wrote: »

Do you have some metric that shows that the road is "dangerous" ? It can be a pain, sure, but I've never been involved in, seen or heard of anything happening on that road.

The only metric you would find is fatalities as many non-fatal incidents would not be reported to the gardai.
Is that really how you want to measure whether or not safety improvements should be considered?
Have you ever cycled it? I have and I definitley do not feel safe on it.

Dick Turnip · 19-02-2021 04:45PM

PaulieC wrote: »

Do you have some metric that shows that the road is "dangerous" ? It can be a pain, sure, but I've never been involved in, seen or heard of anything happening on that road.

Would you let your kid cycle on it? That's one metric.

Larbre34 · 19-02-2021 04:45PM

I wouldn't characterise Strand Road as being more or less dangerous to cycle on currently than any main urban route. The surface is decent, sightlines are pretty good etc.

But lets be clear, objecting to any traffic management scheme doesn't even slightly make those objectors liable for any future incidents when the status quo is maintained.

Thelonious Monk · 19-02-2021 04:49PM

It's not the road that's dangerous it's the motorists on it. They seem to be very impatient on Strand Road from my experience, as they usually don't have enough space to overtake you, with traffic coming on the other side, so they usually close pass you and almost hit you, or when there's a small gap in traffic on the other side they put the foot down and angrily blaze past you for holding them up. This is magnified on sunny days when there are far more cars/bikes.
It's just quite unpleasant and it would totally turn people off cycling along there, never mind kids.

PaulieC · 19-02-2021 05:03PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The only metric you would find is fatalities as many non-fatal incidents would not be reported to the gardai.
Is that really how you want to measure whether or not safety improvements should be considered?
Have you ever cycled it? I have and I definitley do not feel safe on it.

It's my route to work (in the good old days when work outside the house was a thing), so yes. It's probably the road I am most familiar with.

Feeling safe isn't a metric. It's a feeling

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Would you let your kid cycle on it? That's one metric.

I have and do. Again, it's not a metric, it's a feeling.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's not the road that's dangerous it's the motorists on it. They seem to be very impatient on Strand Road from my experience, as they usually don't have enough space to overtake you, with traffic coming on the other side, so they usually close pass you and almost hit you, or when there's a small gap in traffic on the other side they put the foot down and angrily blaze past you for holding them up. This is magnified on sunny days when there are far more cars/bikes.
It's just quite unpleasant and it would totally turn people off cycling along there, never mind kids.

my experience differs. I find the motorists no more or less dangerous than any other road. Not all motorists are the same.

Dick Turnip · 19-02-2021 05:11PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The only metric you would find is fatalities as many non-fatal incidents would not be reported to the gardai.
Is that really how you want to measure whether or not safety improvements should be considered?

Exactly, the RSA are so obsessed with fatalities as the only metric of road safety.

If huge proportions of the population don't cycle as they think the roads and streets are too dangerous, then the RSA are failing the population on how truly safe the roads are.

Thelonious Monk · 19-02-2021 05:12PM

PaulieC wrote: »

my experience differs. I find the motorists no more or less dangerous than any other road. Not all motorists are the same.

Any road where there isn't much space is the same in Dublin, the scenarios I presented above regularly happen.

DoraDelite · 19-02-2021 05:19PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Any road where there isn't much space is the same in Dublin, the scenarios I presented above regularly happen.

Yep, I have the same experience as you. Not just on the bike, try driving Strand Road at the speed limit (or any road in Dublin) and watch the road raging, tail gating, foaming at the mouth behind you. I have been overtaken dangerously on more than one occasion on that road while driving.

Seth Brundle · 19-02-2021 05:26PM

PaulieC wrote: »

It's my route to work (in the good old days when work outside the house was a thing), so yes. It's probably the road I am most familiar with.

Feeling safe isn't a metric. It's a feeling

I responded about a metric which was that apart from numbers of people getting killed, you don't have one.
What you are left with then is feelings and the majority would not feel safe cycling there.
Maybe a metric might be based on belief: do you believe that the road is safe to let a child cycle to school on - Yes or No?

eeeee · 19-02-2021 05:30PM

The surface on the Strand Road is shyte, from the Merrion Gates to Sean Moore road. You have to cycle in the middle of the lane at the very least to avoid the holes and subsiding roads, the roundabouts and their approaches and off them are in shyte too. With the on road parking you ahve to cycle right out nearly onto the right hand side of the lane.
I cycle that road every day and it's not pleasant, not in any way, shape or form. Traffic gets pissed you're in front of them and you get multiple passes on blind bends, cutting in, cutting across you, cars on the other side of the road passing cyclists on blind bends driving at you.
I do a lot, a lot of cycling, well used to traffic, my commute brings me through town and down the length of the quays every day (pre covid) and the Strand Road is no where near 'good' to cycle on.
You almost never see familes, kids etc. cycling along it. The Blackrock - Sandycove lane has brought out way, way more kids, families, old people, women that I have never seen before on that road in years of cycling on it. It's so busy you get held up cycling along, it's great to see. This cycle lane will do the same.
I can't wait for it to go in.

Thelonious Monk · 19-02-2021 05:30PM

DoraDelite wrote: »

Yep, I have the same experience as you. Not just on the bike, try driving Strand Road at the speed limit (or any road in Dublin) and watch the road raging, tail gating, foaming at the mouth behind you. I have been overtaken dangerously on more than one occasion on that road while driving.

Don't know where you live but I'm near a road called Springdale in Raheny, and similar experiences here except they are even angrier. I had someone threaten me 2 weeks ago as he close passed me as he couldn't get past for a few seconds.
So now I just cycle on the footpath on that stretch, obviously getting out of the way of pedestrians if required, but they are hardly ever there.

silverharp · 19-02-2021 05:57PM

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Would you let your kid cycle on it? That's one metric.

lol no, always cycled with my kids on the path on the Strand road and if going to Blackrock, that path too until you hit the park

magicbastarder · 19-02-2021 06:53PM

the stupid thing is that even the idea of low traffic neighbourhoods - as was proposed out around harold's cross - was fought tooth and nail by locals.
but it's funny how these things go. the closure of a rat run was trialled between griffith avenue and drumcondra a few years ago, and the locals were dead set against it. but when the period of the trial came to an end, they were dead set against the bollards being removed.

tomasrojo · 19-02-2021 06:54PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Any road where there isn't much space is the same in Dublin, the scenarios I presented above regularly happen.

Yeah, I'm not going to comment on Strand Road because I don't know much about it,but narrow-laned roads with fairly heavy traffic are always unpleasant, with close passes and impatient risk-taking.

magicbastarder · 19-02-2021 07:02PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

I wouldn't characterise Strand Road as being more or less dangerous to cycle on currently than any main urban route. The surface is decent, sightlines are pretty good etc.

the sightlines make it more likely that motorists will try a stupid overtake, in my experience. the roundabouts are not pleasant either, the road is too narrow to justify them and there's one especially where inbound traffic is not visible to traffic coming from the left till the last moment - you really have to take the lane on approach and several times i'd either had to drop anchor, or the motorist who should have yielded had to do similar.

inbound at rush hour was usually a ****show too, at evening rush hour. there'd be essentially no space left for cyclists in among the static traffic.

anyway, saying it's no more or less dangerous to cycle than any main urban route; that's either a quite unintentional damning with faint praise, or missing the point.

BabysCoffee · 19-02-2021 09:14PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

There were 2 consultations already. The STC group even got their back of an envelope effort onto the table. It was disregarded for the bill it was.

If it was decided to proceed with the back of the envelope effort would they be bringing it to court?

Cosmos7 · 19-02-2021 10:59PM

Is there lots of case law with people challenging whether other road realignment works needed part 8 ?

Peregrine · 20-02-2021 04:56AM

Cosmos7 wrote: »

Is there lots of case law with people challenging whether other road realignment works needed part 8 ?

There's no road realignment involved in this project. This is just road markings, bollards and changes to junctions. All defined as traffic calming measures under Section 38 of the Road Traffic Act 1994. The alignment remains the same.

Kermit.de.frog · 20-02-2021 05:09AM

The Dublin Cycling Campaign Group took a legal action on a technicality that deprived a community near Sheriff Street of much needed investment and hundreds of homes last year. One of the most deprived, poverty stricken and crime ridden areas in Dublin and they did that.

If you want to win people over don't do things like that.

So when it comes to this action they can't complain.

Peregrine · 20-02-2021 05:43AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The Dublin Cycling Campaign Group took a legal action on a technicality that deprived a community near Sheriff Street of much needed investment and hundreds of homes last year. One of the most deprived, poverty stricken and crime ridden areas in Dublin and they did that.

If you want to win people over don't do things like that.

So when it comes to this action they can't complain.

They took legal action against An Bord Pleanála who allowed Ballymore and Oxley to illegally build a large non-residential car park as part of a residential development without including it for consideration in the application. The judge found that they "took an informed decision to deliberately not include" it as part of the application to get around SHD legislation.

Far from your depriving poverty stricken areas of much needed luxury apartments narrative. In stark contrast to this case, they outlined why they thought the law was broken from the start. And they were right. The blame for that residential development being delayed lies with the developers who took the informed decision to break the law and ABP for allowing them — not the people who called them out on it.

Don't pretend you care for the community on Sheriff Street. Your post is oozing contempt for them.

Kermit.de.frog · 20-02-2021 06:15AM

Peregrine wrote: »

The blame for that residential development being delayed

I care deeply about that area.

And, you're wrong, it's scrapped.

They took a case on a technicality that has deprived jobs and housing in one of the most deprived areas of Dublin.

With that comes reputational damage and anger.

We are in a housing crisis and they did that. Doesn't affect them of course.

Not buying it. This is karma - want to play like that how can you complain? We'll all take cases on technicalities with zero concern for those affected.

The Spy Queen · 20-02-2021 07:00AM

I live on londonbridge road. On any normal day the traffic on it is terrible. i am an avid cyclist also and mainly use bike to commute to work on the northside of dublin. This project is not like closing minor roads in seapoint, sandycove or Dun Laoghaire this is a main route to get from one side of dublin to the other not to mention our main indoor concert venue. This project will affect negatively way more people than it will benefit. Do the proper thing and put the Cycleway on the outside of the sea wall and while they are there could they raise it a foot or two. This project is ridiculous in my opinion.

BabysCoffee · 20-02-2021 09:27AM

The Spy Queen wrote: »

I live on londonbridge road. On any normal day the traffic on it is terrible. i am an avid cyclist also and mainly use bike to commute to work on the northside of dublin. This project is not like closing minor roads in seapoint, sandycove or Dun Laoghaire this is a main route to get from one side of dublin to the other not to mention our main indoor concert venue. This project will affect negatively way more people than it will benefit. Do the proper thing and put the Cycleway on the outside of the sea wall and while they are there could they raise it a foot or two. This project is ridiculous in my opinion.

I cycle to most concerts, it's definitely a more fun way to travel than car. I'm looking forward to be able to do it more safely in the future on this cyclepath.

Fighting Tao · 20-02-2021 09:38AM

The Spy Queen wrote: »

I live on londonbridge road. On any normal day the traffic on it is terrible. i am an avid cyclist also and mainly use bike to commute to work on the northside of dublin. This project is not like closing minor roads in seapoint, sandycove or Dun Laoghaire this is a main route to get from one side of dublin to the other not to mention our main indoor concert venue. This project will affect negatively way more people than it will benefit. Do the proper thing and put the Cycleway on the outside of the sea wall and while they are there could they raise it a foot or two. This project is ridiculous in my opinion.

The port tunnel was built to remove traffic from the city centre. It can be accessed via the m50, so a few going to concerts can manage between cycling, waking, public transport, and if they really need to...via the port tunnel. So another excuse.

MojoMaker · 20-02-2021 12:08PM

Oh dear Spy Queen. Open-minded up to the point you inserted "avid cyclist" into the mix as if to justify how bad things must be if "even an avid cyclist like me opposes this"....let's just agree, you are a local resident who doesn't want your ability to drive and park anywhere you like in the D4 area affected by a community project with which you have no great affinity.

The guff about the 3 Arena is particularly galling. If you're in the D4 area you should be walking to the venue and encouraging the kids to walk (or cycle).

The only groups this will negatively affect are drivers who refuse to review and potentially modify their driving habits - change is difficult and the transition period will be tricky, no doubting that - but there is a ton of traffic on that road right now that could be considered non-essential, the road being used simply because it's there.

We need a national mindset shift away from traffic and private car usage and if councils can help by altering otherwise immovable opinions and mindsets then so be it, because gentle persuasion certainly hasn't worked.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2021 12:44PM

MojoMaker wrote: »

If you're in the D4 area you should be walking to the venue and encouraging the kids to walk (or cycle).

The Spy Queen made no mention of driving to the venue *herself*. i have cycled the strand road in the lead up to concerts and the traffic on it is almost certainly not from locals.

Thelonious Monk · 20-02-2021 12:57PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The Dublin Cycling Campaign Group took a legal action on a technicality that deprived a community near Sheriff Street of much needed investment and hundreds of homes last year. One of the most deprived, poverty stricken and crime ridden areas in Dublin and they did that.

If you want to win people over don't do things like that.

So when it comes to this action they can't complain.

How would these apartments benefit your average Sheriff Street resident?

Thelonious Monk · 20-02-2021 01:01PM

The Spy Queen wrote: »

Do the proper thing and put the Cycleway on the outside of the sea wall and while they are there could they raise it a foot or two

It's a protected unesco biosphere so I'm pretty sure building anything there isn't an option.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2021 01:07PM

has there been any thought given to mandating one road for approaching the east link, and another for departing?

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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