The way forward for LC2021

Choochtown · 18-02-2021 12:58PM

A couple of points spring to mind following last night's announcement.

1. Let's say a teacher gives the child of a friend a H1 and this is approved by the principal etc and gets registered as that student's "predicted grade". The student of course has no knowledge of this and sits the exam anyway achieving a H6. Can the SEC use this information to downgrade the predicted grade? I would argue that this is much fairer than whatever algorithm they may come up with.

2. Let's say Covid numbers don't fall as hoped. What's to stop Norma getting what she wanted anyway and just cancelling the exams (big money saved!) and using the predicted grades?

Mardy Bum · 18-02-2021 12:59PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I think I’m panicking a little and overthinking it all. I’ll go on the results I have. And prob be generous to anyone who is between H1 and H2.

Genuine question
What happens If a student sat only one test and got a H1 and actively avoided all other tests and are certainly not H1 standard as they haven’t been in school ...?

Do I still go with that result?

How regularly do your students get H1s? You have two scenarios -

If this is not a regular occurrence- Are these students more able and intelligent, harder working and diligent than your previous cohorts? How can you prove this? Has your teaching improved dramatically in the last year that may have resulted in bigger gains? If you can answer yes to these, then you could potentially give a H1 despite having no history of it.

If H1s are a regular occurrence - Are these students similar to your previous students who attained a H1? Can you prove that they are at a similar standard? If this is a yes, give them a H1. If they are not, give them a lesser grade.

Moody_mona · 18-02-2021 01:01PM

Choochtown wrote: »

1. Let's say a teacher gives the child of a friend a H1 and this is approved by the principal etc and gets registered as that student's "predicted grade". The student of course has no knowledge of this and sits the exam anyway achieving a H6. Can the SEC use this information to downgrade the predicted grade? I would argue that this is much fairer than whatever algorithm they may come up with.

With the caveat that my info is coming from the ISSU IGTV video last night, no these are independent of each other and will not have and effect on each other.

Stewie Griffin · 18-02-2021 01:02PM

Choochtown wrote: »

A couple of points spring to mind following last night's announcement.

1. Let's say a teacher gives the child of a friend a H1 and this is approved by the principal etc and gets registered as that student's "predicted grade". The student of course has no knowledge of this and sits the exam anyway achieving a H6. Can the SEC use this information to downgrade the predicted grade? I would argue that this is much fairer than whatever algorithm they may come up with.

2. Let's say Covid numbers don't fall as hoped. What's to stop Norma getting what she wanted anyway and just cancelling the exams (big money saved!) and using the predicted grades?

Part of me suspects that there may be no exams this year too. Can the recruitment process happen in time? I suspect they are banking on similar numbers to the November cohort, which means that the same number of superintendents will only be needed.

Moody_mona · 18-02-2021 01:05PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Genuine question
What happens If a student sat only one test and got a H1 and actively avoided all other tests and are certainly not H1 standard as they haven’t been in school ...?

If you can say they are "certainly not that standard" then you should know that is not the grade you assign. How do you know they are certainly not that standard? That knowledge is what will help you to assign a calculated of predicted grade. I think you said you didn't do this last year. The guidance wasn't amazing but it wasn't as simplistic as average out your test results and don't think about it at all.

History Queen · 18-02-2021 01:05PM

Teach30 I don't want to come across as attacking you but the lack of professionalism in your posts is worrying.

Await the guidance and act accordingly. None of us know what teachers will be asked to do this year.

Choochtown · 18-02-2021 01:05PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

With the caveat that my info is coming from the ISSU IGTV video last night, no these are independent of each other and will not have and effect on each other.

I feared as much.

Random sample · 18-02-2021 01:06PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I think I’m panicking a little and overthinking it all. I’ll go on the results I have. And prob be generous to anyone who is between H1 and H2.

Genuine question
What happens If a student sat only one test and got a H1 and actively avoided all other tests and are certainly not H1 standard as they haven’t been in school ...?

Do I still go with that result?

Very unlikely. You’d need to look at evidence from all aspects of the course, they have proved they have good at one aspect.

We will be given guidelines and it should be clear to all of us what is in play and what is not.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 01:06PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Your recent posts are very worrying Teach30. I was under the impression that you were a young and newly-qualified teacher and your inexperience was allowing your heart to overrule your head regarding predicting grades for your students.
You've been teaching your subject for 10 years.
Surely over the 10 years you have set class assessments?
Surely over the 10 years you have looked at the grades your students have achieved in your subject?
Surely you have compared the 2?
This is how you come to a predicted grade.

Your comment about H1s and H2s and not being "bothered about the rest" is very insulting to the vast majority of your class.

I’ve never compared class results with their LC result! Once a group is finished I’d look at their results and that would be it.

I’ve never even considered predicting grades for a class. Why would I?

And I’m not going to openly say it to the rest of the class that I’m not bothered about them that would be silly! What I mean is they are easier to grade the H1 and H2 are way more difficult.

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 01:07PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

How regularly do your students get H1s? You have two scenarios -

If this is not a regular occurrence- Are these students more able and intelligent, harder working and diligent than your previous cohorts? How can you prove this? Has your teaching improved dramatically in the last year that may have resulted in bigger gains? If you can answer yes to these, then you could potentially give a H1 despite having no history of it.

If H1s are a regular occurrence - Are these students similar to your previous students who attained a H1? Can you prove that they are at a similar standard? If this is a yes, give them a H1. If they are not, give them a lesser grade.

This exactly. I'm actually not even teaching as long as the above poster but I analyse my results every year to see where I or the student might have fallen down, to get a feel for where the examination and my teaching dovetail. Again I would consider this fairly fundamental to my job. I've also corrects at JC and LC level because I really believe everyone should but I wasn't far off being able to judge a students ability without that experience. I'd also hazard that most teachers will struggle with the middle ground grades, a H1 or H2 student is generally obvious enough

And student think lots of teachers are nice, they don't complain about them but I'm not there to be their friend. My job is to educate them and to carry my job out professionally.

Rosalita · 18-02-2021 01:08PM

I know I'm going to come across as being unduly unfair but I cannot believe some of the posts on this topic. Giving a student a H1 because you fear seeing them or their parents? Winging a brand new course when you have students depending on it (and you) for points/grades?! I'm speechless.
One of my subjects is a minority subject (well, I'm the only one who taught it last year when calculating grades). It wasn't a case of me doing an Oprah on it and saying H1 for you, H1 for you. My principal AND deputy met me online and poured over previous results for the subject in the school, national results and data on each individual student to calculate their grade. I've been at more relaxed job interviews!
Teach, you're doing your students (and you) a massive disservice by being overly generous with your results. My number 1 ranked student was downgraded to a H2. She repeated in November and got the H1 like I knew she would and it infuriates me that she was probably downgraded because of teachers playing favourites or too fearful of outside influences to give them a proper mark. There's a massive difference between being friends with a student and being friendly towards them. Their parents should have absolutely no bearing on their results.

r93kaey5p2izun · 18-02-2021 01:10PM

Choochtown wrote: »

A couple of points spring to mind following last night's announcement.

1. Let's say a teacher gives the child of a friend a H1 and this is approved by the principal etc and gets registered as that student's "predicted grade". The student of course has no knowledge of this and sits the exam anyway achieving a H6. Can the SEC use this information to downgrade the predicted grade? I would argue that this is much fairer than whatever algorithm they may come up with.

2. Let's say Covid numbers don't fall as hoped. What's to stop Norma getting what she wanted anyway and just cancelling the exams (big money saved!) and using the predicted grades?

On point 1, I think that's unlikely regardless. But last year the guidance for prediction was to imagine none of the disruption from Covid had occurred and consider what a student would most likely have achieved in that situation. That makes the exams incomparable really, because Covid has happened and has had an impact. Now we don't know yet what the guidance will be this year, but what teachers are actually told to predict is absolutely crucial.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:13PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

... Because they want to be remembered for the right reason.

I live in the town I teach in, I understand the difficulties with assigning grades to students and then seeing them in SuperValu, but regardless of the fact that you assigned it calculated the grade, it's what they have given you evidence of.

ACCS confirming all students finishing a week early.

I live in the town I teach in, and students and parents know that I'm fair when it comes to marking. If you work in my class you'll get the grade you deserve. If you don't work you don't get it. I'll do everything I can to help a student if they want to try the HL paper but sometimes its a bridge too far.

Choochtown · 18-02-2021 01:13PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve never compared class results with their LC result! Once a group is finished I’d look at their results and that would be it.

I’ve never even considered predicting grades for a class. Why would I?

And I’m not going to openly say it to the rest of the class that I’m not bothered about them that would be silly! What I mean is they are easier to grade the H1 and H2 are way more difficult.

You've never in 10 years of teaching your subject at Leaving Cert compared students' results to your own assessment?? I find that very hard to believe. Surely that is done in every school in the country on the 1st day back of a new school year?

How on earth is it easier to grade H3, H4, H5, H6, H7 and H8 than it is to grade H1 and H2??

You didn't openly say to the class that you weren't bothered but you posted it here. The fact that you are "not bothered" is what disturbs me. (Although yeah admittedly letting the class know as well would be disturbing as well)

Random sample · 18-02-2021 01:14PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve never compared class results with their LC result! Once a group is finished I’d look at their results and that would be it.

I’ve never even considered predicting grades for a class. Why would I?

And I’m not going to openly say it to the rest of the class that I’m not bothered about them that would be silly! What I mean is they are easier to grade the H1 and H2 are way more difficult.

Do you not go through your results for sse? Or are you part of a big department where someone else does all of that work?

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:15PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Gosh I’d never do all that for a new subject Id just wing it!

I have done my best to understand the assessments but I’m still never sure if I apply marking schemes correctly. Asking other teachers isn’t an option, I’m the only one teaching my subject to LCs. I’m teaching it with 10years though and keeping them happy, LCs have never complained so I must be doing something right!

I thought you could only give so many H1s and H2s I’m not bothered about the rest they are easier to grade. If someone needs a H1 for points and they are between that and a H2 I’d totally give them the H1.

Would they get in if they sat the exam? maybe but I have never marked LC so I couldn’t be definite that the answers they provide are H1 or H2.

Plenty of options, you can ask teachers on here anonymously. Your subject has an association, you can contact them. You can talk to teachers in neighbouring schools. 'Not being able to ask anyone' is just a cop out.

Your attitude astounds me. It's basically 'I don't know it, so I can't be bothered finding out'.

noplacehere · 18-02-2021 01:16PM

I teach a minority subject and I have spent ten years getting as much experience as possible through the subject association and online groups, right down to asking if I was marking questions correctly. I would strongly recommend joining your subject association or looking for a Facebook group in your subject, I know my subjects one is very very active and helpful

I would always check my results and see how it compares to mine, not formally in a written sense but always checking to see how they did compared to how I marked them.

You absolutely should not be taking who a student is or what they want to do into account when grading a student. Our job is to assess the student on their work and our assessment of their ability to achieve?

And a student who has avoided tests through absence and got a H1 in one I would argue is very unlikely to be capable of a H1 on the day in an exam much much longer and based on far more content than one test

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:17PM

Choochtown wrote: »

A couple of points spring to mind following last night's announcement.

1. Let's say a teacher gives the child of a friend a H1 and this is approved by the principal etc and gets registered as that student's "predicted grade". The student of course has no knowledge of this and sits the exam anyway achieving a H6. Can the SEC use this information to downgrade the predicted grade? I would argue that this is much fairer than whatever algorithm they may come up with.

2. Let's say Covid numbers don't fall as hoped. What's to stop Norma getting what she wanted anyway and just cancelling the exams (big money saved!) and using the predicted grades?

That occurred to me last night too. I suspect they won't use the exam grade, GDPR and all that, but if the grades aren't in line with what the school usually gets in that subject, they may be downgraded anyway.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:20PM

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

Part of me suspects that there may be no exams this year too. Can the recruitment process happen in time? I suspect they are banking on similar numbers to the November cohort, which means that the same number of superintendents will only be needed.

They have announced exams, effectively it's a contract with students. They may well be banking on a mass opt out, but I think the exams will go ahead. I don't think numbers of cases in the community are the issue, it's numbers in hospitals. They are falling and should continue to fall with the rollout of the vaccine. I'd imagine numbers will be quite low by June, given that many restrictions will still be in place.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 01:22PM

Choochtown wrote: »

You've never in 10 years of teaching your subject at Leaving Cert compared students' results to your own assessment?? I find that very hard to believe. Surely that is done in every school in the country on the 1st day back of a new school year?

How on earth is it easier to grade H3, H4, H5, H6, H7 and H8 than it is to grade H1 and H2??

You didn't openly say to the class that you weren't bothered but you posted it here. The fact that you are "not bothered" is what disturbs me. (Although yeah admittedly letting the class know as well would be disturbing as well)

We get a print out of how our results compare to national standards and I put that in the dept folder and that’s it.

What’s the benefit of me using it? I still teach the same way every year and it seems to be fine.

I’m assuming it’s clearer to see who’s a h4/5/6 etc but I haven’t done this before so I haven’t a clue!

I’ll obviously follow guidance so on it all and ask for help if I need it.

I’m more worried that my class test results aren’t very accurate.

I do wish we had been given guidelines to follow last September as that would make me feel less anxious that I haven’t given enough tests or kept records etc.

I’m genuinely did not think CG would happen this year and if I’m coming across badly well I’ve done grand for the last 10 years winging it!

r93kaey5p2izun · 18-02-2021 01:22PM

I do think things are much more complicated this year because of students who have deliberately avoided assessments - and there are plenty of them from what I hear from friends. Covid being used as an excuse here makes it so difficult - it's a legitimate excuse that can't be discounted, even though many students have used it dishonestly. I think it's essential that the official guidelines specifically refer to how missed assessments are to be interpreted, but I don't have faith in the department to do that.

Stewie Griffin · 18-02-2021 01:23PM

I agree that the poster isn't coming across well, but I suspect it may be down to poorly expressed thoughts as much as poor professional practice. I hope so, at any rate.

Anyway, its definitely not a good idea to be expressing these thoughts out loud in such a public manner. As other posters have highlighted, there are many solutions to help them.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:25PM

noplacehere wrote: »

And a student who has avoided tests through absence and got a H1 in one I would argue is very unlikely to be capable of a H1 on the day in an exam much much longer and based on far more content than one test

Yes, my experience of H1 students is that they want to do every test, to push themselves, and to prove that they are H1s. And that was before we ever heard the term predictive grading. They are naturally competitive and hard working in my experience. The students getting top marks in a class compete against similar in their class and compare results. They don't avoid tests.

alroley · 18-02-2021 01:26PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Plenty of options, you can ask teachers on here anonymously. Your subject has an association, you can contact them. You can talk to teachers in neighbouring schools. 'Not being able to ask anyone' is just a cop out.

Your attitude astounds me. It's basically 'I don't know it, so I can't be bothered finding out'.

I am the only teacher in my school of one of my subjects. I have found online groups on various social media to speak with other teachers of my subject. You have to find ways.

Random sample · 18-02-2021 01:26PM

Teach30 wrote: »

We get a print out of how our results compare to national standards and I put that in the dept folder and that’s it.

What’s the benefit of me using it? I still teach the same way every year and it seems to be fine.

I’m assuming it’s clearer to see who’s a h4/5/6 etc but I haven’t done this before so I haven’t a clue!

I’ll obviously follow guidance so on it all and ask for help if I need it.

I’m more worried that my class test results aren’t very accurate.

I do wish we had been given guidelines to follow last September as that would make me feel less anxious that I haven’t given enough tests or kept records etc.

I’m genuinely did not think CG would happen this year and if I’m coming across badly well I’ve done grand for the last 10 years winging it!

I see now you are the only teacher of your subject. Do you have a SSE plan for your subject? How do you set your targets if not by looking at your results and wondering how to improve them? Have you ever looked at your students papers with them in September? That can be really useful too. I’ve often asked students who didn’t want to see their paper to come in with me so that I can look at them.

The benefit is that you can reflect on your practice and see where it can be improved.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 01:27PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Plenty of options, you can ask teachers on here anonymously. Your subject has an association, you can contact them. You can talk to teachers in neighbouring schools. 'Not being able to ask anyone' is just a cop out.

Your attitude astounds me. It's basically 'I don't know it, so I can't be bothered finding out'.

I’ll be honest in that I haven’t never questioned it because I haven’t had reason to. I assume my marking is fine and no one has ever complained so I’ve kept going that way.

Im probably just overthinking it all. Asking here has kind of helped me so I’ll just wait for guidelines to and follow them.

I do hope it’s easier than it sounds!

Random sample · 18-02-2021 01:29PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ll be honest in that I haven’t never questioned it because I haven’t had reason to. I assume my marking is fine and no one has ever complained so I’ve kept going that way.

Im probably just overthinking it all. Asking here has kind of helped me so I’ll just wait for guidelines to and follow them.

I do hope it’s easier than it sounds!

My guess from looking at your posts is that you are dealing with a good calibre of student. You aren’t dealing with messers who have picked your subject by default or because they didn’t meet basic requirements for the others on the line. Your experience is quite likely very different to mine!

noplacehere · 18-02-2021 01:30PM

Teach30 wrote: »

We get a print out of how our results compare to national standards and I put that in the dept folder and that’s it.

What’s the benefit of me using it? I still teach the same way every year and it seems to be fine.

I’m assuming it’s clearer to see who’s a h4/5/6 etc but I haven’t done this before so I haven’t a clue!

I’ll obviously follow guidance so on it all and ask for help if I need it.

I’m more worried that my class test results aren’t very accurate.

I do wish we had been given guidelines to follow last September as that would make me feel less anxious that I haven’t given enough tests or kept records etc.

I’m genuinely did not think CG would happen this year and if I’m coming across badly well I’ve done grand for the last 10 years winging it!

So as an example I have a spreadsheet of my students results (or google classroom does nowadays). I analyse it at each parent teacher meeting and I check it every report so by the time they sit the exam I have a good idea what each of them is getting in my assessments at least. When I see the results in August I can either confirm my testing is fairly in line with the official exam or if I’m marking too easily and giving unrealistic expectations to students.

We are also given that sheet which I write a reflection on to put in the subject folder. If for example my class underperforms compared to the national cohort I might mention that this particular group were weaker etc or if they over performed maybe I noticed that a particular student really knuckled down in May etc

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 01:31PM

Random sample wrote: »

I see now you are the only teacher of your subject. Do you have a SSE plan for your subject? How do you set your targets if not by looking at your results and wondering how to improve them? Have you ever looked at your students papers with them in September? That can be really useful too. I’ve often asked students who didn’t want to see their paper to come in with me so that I can look at them.

The benefit is that you can reflect on your practice and see where it can be improved.

No never set targets etc. We aren’t asked to.

I once accompanied a student to check over her paper and I couldn’t tell her where or why she lost marks so I never did it again. The marking scheme I was provided with I couldn’t follow/didn’t reflect where marked were lost.

It really put me off doing that so I just say I’m not available now if asked to look at it.

Treppen · 18-02-2021 01:39PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

No, but if students quote health concerns due to covid, can't query it really

If they quote health concerns then it would be treated as any other year with extenuating circumstances and given the opportunity to resit exam later.

The way forward for LC2021

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