The way forward for LC2021

cmssjone · 18-02-2021 11:21AM

Teach30 wrote: »

I suppose this students answering style seems better? I’ve never marked LC level so I’m only assuming. Others would be as good but wouldn’t write as long or detailed an answer for Qs but then they might do better in an official exam as they write less so get more covered. I use marking schemes for correcting but even they are vague and never say exactly what to expect from student.

I know what your saying but these are the things some teachers will consider when giving PG!

Their future course prospects will be down to the me and I’d hate to be remembered for not giving results they need and deserve. That’s just my thinking right now, I’ll obviously follow guidelines when we get them.

Many of the teachers that did that last year found that many of their students’ grades were still downgraded. I won’t be making that mistake this time.

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 11:24AM

Rosita wrote: »

I would say it would have to be explicitly stated that you can take engagement/attendance into account because hasn't one of the great selling points of the LC always been that whatever might be the background everyone started on the same line in the exam.

This the LC exam not the TY end-of-year awards. Under no circumstances would a decision to penalise students for engagement/attendance stand up to any scrutiny. Especially in the current febrile 'student centred' atmosphere.

I'm not taking attendance, I'd be taking content covered into account with the back up of exams. So I cover Unit 2 part 3, the student doesn't come to class or take the exam, I cannot assume that content is there. Could be a mandatory question on the paper. Now if they don't attend but sit the exam and ace it, we are all good........then the content is there. It's not attendance explicitly but we are also not grading them til May so whether they are in or not will have a effect on their grade in terms of what content is covered and what evidence I have that that content is there. I could have two student son the same grade now, if one comes to every class and one comes to none it's clear enough who would, in all likelihood, have done better it he exam.

Be interesting to see which subjects people choose to sit, it definitely won't be an even spread and perception may end up playing a worrying role.

noplacehere · 18-02-2021 11:25AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

No teacher should consider the course they might or might not get when grading the students. Need is not in the equation, only deserve.

This. You do not consider what they need. You consider what you believe they would get in the exam

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 11:27AM

cmssjone wrote: »

Many of the teachers that did that last year found that many of their students’ grades were still downgraded. I won’t be making that mistake this time.

Yes I have heard a lot of this.
I’ll be keeping that in mind.

I know I’ll also be seen as an easy target for PG as I am a total softie. Even for class tests I give them benefit of the doubt. I mark easily as I don’t like confrontation. If I go by my test results my PG will naturally be inflated anyways.

Lack of an outsider correcting a mock this year will be a blessing in disguise for my LCs.

wirelessdude01 · 18-02-2021 11:28AM

Teach30 wrote: »

Their future course prospects will be down to the me and I’d hate to be remembered for not giving results they need and deserve.

Need and deserve shouldn't be in the same sentence. What they deserve to get shouldn't equate to what they need to get for college.

Random sample · 18-02-2021 11:29AM

Timetable is on examinations.ie. Doesn’t look any different to normal.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 11:39AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Need and deserve shouldn't be in the same sentence. What they deserve to get shouldn't equate to what they need to get for college.

Easier said than done, id know some of these outside of school so makes it that bit harder.

As I said I didn’t do this last year, that with the fact I have never corrected at LC exam level means I wouldn’t be sure what they would get in an exam. So I might correct their answers and say they’re only worth 9/10m when they could be worth 10/10! One students writes more than the others so I give them 10/10 but the rest of the answers would still be correct but don’t have as much information.

They’d all deserve the 10/10 but that one students who writes more and in a better style is what I base answers on along with marking scheme!

Basically I haven’t a clue so will ask my colleagues for advice.

wirelessdude01 · 18-02-2021 11:48AM

Teach30 wrote: »

Easier said than done, id know some of these outside of school so makes it that bit harder.

As I said I didn’t do this last year, that with the fact I have never corrected at LC exam level means I wouldn’t be sure what they would get in an exam. So I might correct their answers and say they’re only worth 9/10m when they could be worth 10/10! One students writes more than the others so I give them 10/10 but the rest of the answers would still be correct but don’t have as much information.

They’d all deserve the 10/10 but that one students who writes more and in a better style is what I base answers on along with marking scheme!

Basically I haven’t a clue so will ask my colleagues for advice.

If they deserve a 5 out of 10 but need a 10 out of 10 which would you give them?

There shouldn't have to be any thought given to the fact that you know some of them outside of school, that you know their families or what courses they hope to do next year. You can only mark based on what criteria and evidence you have.

Icsics · 18-02-2021 11:50AM

Jesus NF is hard to listen to, she’s on R 1 spouting absolute jargon ridden nothingness!

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 11:52AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

If they deserve a 5 out of 10 but need a 10 out of 10 which would you give them?

There shouldn't have to be any thought given to the fact that you know some of them outside of school, that you know their families or what courses they hope to do next year. You can only mark based on what criteria and evidence you have.

In an ideal world that would be the case but I’m not going to be the one who will be blamed for giving them a lower than expected grade, that’s the reality! Im even anxious thinking about it and meeting them after and being known for it for evermore by the rest of the students in the school.

I’m not talking about the kids in the middle I’m talking about the h1 and h2s. I prob naturally inflate grades anyways so will use the few class tests I have and follow the guidelines thereafter.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 11:55AM

km79 wrote: »

A lot of good points made
The oral situation is a shambles
So in your class you might have 1/3 taking the orals . They need prep between now and Easter . The other 2/3 don’t .
What happens there then !
It won’t work
For many reasons .

The way I see it is my job first and fore most is a teacher. To teach my course and prepare my students for the LC. I’ll be continuing to do so. I will have to give class tests along the way to generate data for the predicted grade. But as far as I’m concerned it’s business as usual. I’m finishing the course / coursework and doing revision. Anyone who is opting out will just have to do the work if they are coming to class.

km79 · 18-02-2021 11:57AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The way I see it is my job first and fore most is a teacher. To teach my course and prepare my students for the LC. I’ll be continuing to do so. I will have to give class tests along the way to generate data for the predicted grade. But as far as I’m concerned it’s business as usual. I’m finishing the course / coursework and doing revision. Anyone who is opting out will just have to do the work if they are coming to class.

Most/all of the next month will have to be given over to oral work so.
Will you be doing mock orals with all students as would normally happen (it happens in all schools I’m familiar with )

The orals won’t run . I’m calling that right now .

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 12:02PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Thinking about my LC class and what way I would dish out PG. I didnt do any of this last year.

I have one student who has worked and continuously got h1s from 5th year on but isn’t going doing a high points course... would I still give the highest a grade to that student.... I have others hoping to do medicine and law who’d still be excellent but not as good at answering Qs.

I have results from about 6 small class tests to go on and two small tests they did at home. I don’t keep a record of homework. I’m not even sure if I have a record of tests they did in 5th year.

I’d hope you’d be giving them on ability and not on what courses they’re aiming for. Anything else is unprofessional.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 12:05PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I suppose this students answering style seems better? I’ve never marked LC level so I’m only assuming. Others would be as good but wouldn’t write as long or detailed an answer for Qs but then they might do better in an official exam as they write less so get more covered. I use marking schemes for correcting but even they are vague and never say exactly what to expect from student.

I know what your saying but these are the things some teachers will consider when giving PG!

Their future course prospects will be down to the me and I’d hate to be remembered for not giving results they need and deserve. That’s just my thinking right now, I’ll obviously follow guidelines when we get them.

It’s not about what grades they need. It’s about what grades they deserve. I’m so horrified by your posts Teach30. Their future course prospects are their problem not yours. It’s not about being liked, it’s about being professional.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 12:05PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I’d hope you’d be giving them on ability and not on what courses they’re aiming for. Anything else is unprofessional.

Will undoubtedly be a bit of both. I rather not be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if I’m of being too honest for here!

Random sample · 18-02-2021 12:08PM

km79 wrote: »

Most/all of the next month will have to be given over to oral work so.
Will you be doing mock orals with all students as would normally happen (it happens in all schools I’m familiar with )

The orals won’t run . I’m calling that right now .

With the current ad hoc plan for carrying out the orals, I wouldn’t be surprised.

They are more like the recorded interview for lcvp, which is carried out by their teacher. I wonder would it be cheaper for the department to run orals that way too? Have teachers conduct the interview and record it for sec examiners in the summer.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 12:10PM

km79 wrote: »

Most/all of the next month will have to be given over to oral work so.
Will you be doing mock orals with all students as would normally happen (it happens in all schools I’m familiar with )

The orals won’t run . I’m calling that right now .

I don’t teach languages. One of my subjects had a project so the focus will be on getting that finished in the next few weeks. That was the plan anyway before yesterday.

Mardy Bum · 18-02-2021 12:12PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It’s not about what grades they need. It’s about what grades they deserve. I’m so horrified by your posts Teach30. Their future course prospects are their problem not yours. It’s not about being liked, it’s about being professional.

In fairness it is refreshing to hear the truth from a teacher about their difficulties. There are a lot of teacher who are blind to their own bias. Many of these found it highly unfair that they couldn't give all their class H1/2s last year despite never attaining those types of grades before. The reflection here will benefit the poster before the process.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 12:14PM

Teach30 wrote: »

In an ideal world that would be the case but I’m not going to be the one who will be blamed for giving them a lower than expected grade, that’s the reality! Im even anxious thinking about it and meeting them after and being known for it for evermore by the rest of the students in the school.

I’m not talking about the kids in the middle I’m talking about the h1 and h2s. I prob naturally inflate grades anyways so will use the few class tests I have and follow the guidelines thereafter.

But you are dealing with reality. If they can only achieve 5/10 on tests then they don’t deserve a H1, they deserve a H5. It’s that simple. I’ll tell you who will hate you in the real world come August - that student who has worked their arse off for two years and you only gave them a H4 when they deserved more and them seeing students who only deserved a H4 sailing into a course with a H1, a grade they neither deserved or were capable of achieving and students will then know that it’s only a popularity contest in your class.

Honestly I’m so angry reading your posts. They are a prime example why teachers shouldn’t be allowed grade students.

km79 · 18-02-2021 12:16PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But you are dealing with reality. If they can only achieve 5/10 on tests then they don’t deserve a H1, they deserve a H5. It’s that simple. I’ll tell you who will hate you in the real world come August - that student who has worked their arse off for two years and you only gave them a H4 when they deserved more and them seeing students who only deserved a H4 sailing into a course with a H1, a grade they neither deserved or were capable of achieving and students will then know that it’s only a popularity contest in your class.

Honestly I’m so angry reading your posts. They are a prime example why teachers shouldn’t be allowed grade students.

After a lot of teachers and students getting burned last year this attitude is going to be prevalent this year
That’s the reality

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 12:19PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Will undoubtedly be a bit of both. I rather not be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if I’m of being too honest for here!

Consider if every guard in the country applied this to their job.

You are employed as a professional, it is your job to understand the curriculum and the assessments within that subject. I have a totally new subject this year, I'm not qualified to teach but it was that or the kids wouldn't have a teacher. I have spent untold hours going over the guidelines, talking to other teacher sin the area, reading the SEC subject documents, pouring over marking schemes to get a feel for the assessment of the subject. This, in my opinion, is required work. If your looking to keep everyone happy then you are doing your students a disservice and they won't thank you in the long run,

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 12:20PM

km79 wrote: »

After a lot of teachers and students getting burned last year this attitude is going to be prevalent this year
That’s the reality

I agree more staff will err on the side of the students best day with the best paper to suit their talents and preferences. This is fine in general, it'll be roughly even for everyone and won;t be wildly different from their grades in class. It might even make it fairer if we are all singing from the same sheet.

Knowingly giving someone a grade above a possibly more deserving student is not right.

Mardy Bum · 18-02-2021 12:23PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I agree more staff will err on the side of the students best day with the best paper to suit their talents and preferences. This is fine in general, it'll be roughly even for everyone and won;t be wildly different from their grades in class. It might even make it fairer if we are all singing from the same sheet.

Knowingly giving someone a grade above a possibly more deserving student is not right.

Both those situations you outlined are the same when it comes to a national average. The best day and best paper scenario is a terrible measurement because it is meaningless.

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 12:27PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Both those situations you outlined are the same when it comes to a national average. The best day and best paper scenario is a terrible measurement because it is meaningless.

If every teacher gives the students their best day grade based on their previous performance (this is vital) the standardization (provided it's less opaque than last year ) will take care of the rest. There are a lot of caveats to this I know, hard to really get a grasp until we have more info.

Deliberately changing the order of merit in a class is not the same. The best student gets the best grade, then the second best gets the second best grade......we will see how school history plays out in the end, that high court ruling is not out til the 10th

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 12:31PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

If every teacher gives the students their best day grade based on their previous performance (this is vital) the standardization (provided it's less opaque than last year ) will take care of the rest. There are a lot of caveats to this I know, hard to really get a grasp until we have more info.

Deliberately changing the order of merit in a class is not the same. The best student gets the best grade, then the second best gets the second best grade......we will see how school history plays out in the end, that high court ruling is not out til the 10th

Yes I’d agree. We can grade our students on merit. If the DES choose to downgrade a student or a whole class, that part is out of our control but we can do our end of it properly.

PoolDude · 18-02-2021 12:32PM

Rosita wrote: »

You are missing the absolute thousands upon thousands who can now down tools having no academic requirement in particular which necessitates the sitting of the Leaving Cert e.g. people who already have been offered a place on a plc course, and the absolute thousands upon thousands who can relax in the knowledge that whatever academic requirement they do need will be met easily by predicted grades.

I know several students personally who have been banking on this since September. You will never hear the Minister for Education or the newspapers talking about people like this but they are out there in big numbers. They will find plenty of relief from the 'heavy workload'. Some will not darken the door of the school again and - to revisit a theme from a day or two ago here - any teacher or Principal who thinks even for a moment that they can hold lack of attendance over them in any shape or form with regard to calculated grades, think again.

Other winners are borderline cases in Maths who are hanging on for the bonus points. Irrespective of their ability, good luck to any teacher trying to talk them down in these last few months. And they'll have the safety net of taking OL in the LC in the unlikely event that they won't be fairly confident of the grade they are getting at HL. I say unlikely in that I'd expect teachers who are minded to fail people in predicted grades will, in the students' best interests, drop strong hints. Other teachers, by their very personal nature, will find it impossible not to do so in any event.

Other winners are OL language students who might have needed to drop to Foundation Level. Why would they do that now with no requirement to do an oral or even a written exam? Would a teacher really fail them?

Other winners are those who can now drop subjects which they find time-consuming and relatively unrewarding in the context of potential improvement. I am thinking, maybe, Irish, English and Maths, where gazumping your natural level of ability is difficult. Students with a good work-ethic can now drop some subjects such as these especially if they are in good standing with the teacher, knowing that they would be unlikely to better the probable calculated grade in the exam, and concentrate on information-heavy subjects where they could maximise their grade with no risk.

You will have the occasional student who'll be hurt at not having the chance to show the world how amazing they are. But of course they still can do that. But they will be few and far between. By and large, students played the stress card and came up trumps. It's hard to think of any losers at this point. The force of the inevitable storm around results and the nature of the transition to third-level might tell a different tale.

The Dept of Ed is well aware that they have taken the populist route. The most telling straw in the wind as to what they are really thinking is the prediction that the Orals will be conducted over a couple of days, when normally this would be a two-week process.

Clearly they expect hardly anybody to do the Oral exams in the expectation that they will be catered for under predicted grades. You can be sure that they expect this will be the case across most subjects. This plan is there to put the Leaving Cert to bed, and like any good three-card trick man they are offering the illusion of "choice" while in reality encouraging you to take the choice they want you to take.

Based on the announcement from the Minister last week ahead of the talks which more or less told us what the conclusions would be before they started, you'd wonder what they were talking about all this time because there's little evidence of the teacher unions' fingerprints on these outcomes.

So you are essentially validating my thinking that it is a sham. I also take you points on the cohorts that have benefitted but they would still need to apply themselves to the end of May is teachers have till then to decide on the PG.

Appreciate your insights by the way

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 12:39PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Consider if every guard in the country applied this to their job.

You are employed as a professional, it is your job to understand the curriculum and the assessments within that subject. I have a totally new subject this year, I'm not qualified to teach but it was that or the kids wouldn't have a teacher. I have spent untold hours going over the guidelines, talking to other teacher sin the area, reading the SEC subject documents, pouring over marking schemes to get a feel for the assessment of the subject. This, in my opinion, is required work. If your looking to keep everyone happy then you are doing your students a disservice and they won't thank you in the long run,

Gosh I’d never do all that for a new subject Id just wing it!

I have done my best to understand the assessments but I’m still never sure if I apply marking schemes correctly. Asking other teachers isn’t an option, I’m the only one teaching my subject to LCs. I’m teaching it with 10years though and keeping them happy, LCs have never complained so I must be doing something right!

I thought you could only give so many H1s and H2s I’m not bothered about the rest they are easier to grade. If someone needs a H1 for points and they are between that and a H2 I’d totally give them the H1.

Would they get in if they sat the exam? maybe but I have never marked LC so I couldn’t be definite that the answers they provide are H1 or H2.

Moody_mona · 18-02-2021 12:43PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Knowingly giving someone a grade above a possibly more deserving student is not right.

... Because they want to be remembered for the right reason.

I live in the town I teach in, I understand the difficulties with assigning grades to students and then seeing them in SuperValu, but regardless of the fact that you assigned it calculated the grade, it's what they have given you evidence of.

ACCS confirming all students finishing a week early.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 12:50PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

... Because they want to be remembered for the right reason.

I live in the town I teach in, I understand the difficulties with assigning grades to students and then seeing them in SuperValu, but regardless of the fact that you assigned it calculated the grade, it's what they have given you evidence of.

ACCS confirming all students finishing a week early.

I think I’m panicking a little and overthinking it all. I’ll go on the results I have. And prob be generous to anyone who is between H1 and H2.

Genuine question
What happens If a student sat only one test and got a H1 and actively avoided all other tests and are certainly not H1 standard as they haven’t been in school ...?

Do I still go with that result?

Choochtown · 18-02-2021 12:53PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Gosh I’d never do all that for a new subject Id just wing it!

I have done my best to understand the assessments but I’m still never sure if I apply marking schemes correctly. Asking other teachers isn’t an option, I’m the only one teaching my subject to LCs. I’m teaching it with 10years though and keeping them happy, LCs have never complained so I must be doing something right!

I thought you could only give so many H1s and H2s I’m not bothered about the rest they are easier to grade. If someone needs a H1 for points and they are between that and a H2 I’d totally give them the H1.

Would they get in if they sat the exam? maybe but I have never marked LC so I couldn’t be definite that the answers they provide are H1 or H2.

Your recent posts are very worrying Teach30. I was under the impression that you were a young and newly-qualified teacher and your inexperience was allowing your heart to overrule your head regarding predicting grades for your students.
You've been teaching your subject for 10 years.
Surely over the 10 years you have set class assessments?
Surely over the 10 years you have looked at the grades your students have achieved in your subject?
Surely you have compared the 2?
This is how you come to a predicted grade.

Your comment about H1s and H2s and not being "bothered about the rest" is very insulting to the vast majority of your class.

The way forward for LC2021

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