Once in a Lifetime....for now

skyblue46 · 15-02-2021 08:14PM

Does anyone get a burning smell? It is probably the cogs that have been turning on overdrive in my head over the past week. Three things running related happened this week which made me question what I am doing and more importantly, why?

Firstly, I decided to get a physio appointment to address the issue around the hip area which plagued me 18 months ago. I had cleared it up then and ran through the first half of 2020 without any issues. However from the very first one mile run I did after getting rid of the worst of the PF it has been an ever present niggle. In truth it is probably this which has held me back from introducing some pace work to date. Anyway an appointment was made, an issue identified and a treatment plan prescribed. I have to drop to 5 days a week of running now but I have been warned that a drop to less may be required. To date I have been concerned about delaying a return to some sort of fitness. Given the circumstances at present it is undoubtedly best to get it sorted now...one step back and all that!

Secondly, I read an excellent post by Cartman on the Coronavirus and Running thread. Simply put he listed in a very heartfelt way what he misses running related at the moment. It made me question both what I miss and what I want. Like everybody else I want races back but not because they offer the best chance of a PB, not in order that I collect race T-shirts, not to park in a carpark to go to a socially distanced start line before running and jumping back into the car. I want races back for the chats, the camaraderie, meeting friends and of course the sandwiches! Bottom line is that I want to enjoy my training and my racing when it returns. I want to run Amsterdam Marathon not for a PB but that I can meet a friend and his great family. I want races where I can meet up with the other 2017 novices. I simply am not motivated by T.T’s. Enjoyment is everything.

Thirdly, a book landed in my letterbox. As a few of you know I have taken a bit of an interest in training and coaching methods. It hasn’t been anything deep, more a curiosity around the origins of and influences behind many of the current commercial training plans which we can all access online. Coaches like Canova, Lydiard, Cerutty, Igloi and Gerschler have influenced so many modern coaches and most of us are following training plans inspired by their philosophies. Perhaps because of the 5k restriction and my injury I have been finding predominantly steady state running to be mind numbingly boring. I have been looking for an alternative to the 2 sessions and long run plans. I wanted something interesting to try. Lo and behold this short book is it. It is written by a former athlete who was trained by Herman Verheul, a Dutch coach. It may not work at all, it may not work in the long term but for the sake of enjoyment I’m giving it a bash. It is different, very different and now is the perfect time to experiment.

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 09:25PM

Ooh, intriguing. Look forward to seeing how you get on with this.

So if not speed/tempo/LR, what will you be working with? Or do we have to keep reading to find out?

skyblue46 · 15-02-2021 09:32PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Ooh, intriguing. Look forward to seeing how you get on with this.

So if not speed/tempo/LR, what will you be working with? Or do we have to keep reading to find out?

Intervals every day

Sacksian · 15-02-2021 09:38PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Thirdly, a book landed in my letterbox. As a few of you know I have taken a bit of an interest in training and coaching methods. It hasn’t been anything deep, more a curiosity around the origins of and influences behind many of the current commercial training plans which we can all access online. Coaches like Canova, Lydiard, Cerutty, Igloi and Gerschler have influenced so many modern coaches and most of us are following training plans inspired by their philosophies. Perhaps because of the 5k restriction and my injury I have been finding predominantly steady state running to be mind numbingly boring. I have been looking for an alternative to the 2 sessions and long run plans. I wanted something interesting to try. Lo and behold this short book is it. It is written by a former athlete who was trained by Herman Verheul, a Dutch coach. It may not work at all, it may not work in the long term but for the sake of enjoyment I’m giving it a bash. It is different, very different and now is the perfect time to experiment.

Very interested to see how you get on...I'm a big fan of Iglói-style training - lots and lots of sets + intervals of 200 + 400 (it just suits me, for some reason). I've been itching to get back to it, so would love to hear how you get on with it. Best of luck with it!

MY BAD · 15-02-2021 09:40PM

Whats the books name?

skyblue46 · 15-02-2021 09:49PM

MY BAD wrote: »

Whats the books name?

Easy Interval Method by Klaas Lok

scotindublin · 15-02-2021 10:06PM

Best of luck with the new plan S; looking forward to hearing how it goes.

Great that you are taking a big interest in training plans/coaching.......you have chosen a tough student for your first project (I am joking E sorry) ; you definitely have the right temperament for it.

skyblue46 · 15-02-2021 10:15PM

Sacksian wrote: »

Very interested to see how you get on...I'm a big fan of Iglói-style training - lots and lots of sets + intervals of 200 + 400 (it just suits me, for some reason). I've been itching to get back to it, so would love to hear how you get on with it. Best of luck with it!

In the early phase the concentration is on 1k intervals but yes there are lots of 200 and 400s on the horizon...

Murph_D · 15-02-2021 11:18PM

Is it geared towards any particular race distance(s)?

200s and 400s are fun. Sounds promising!

ariana` · 16-02-2021 12:23PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Intervals every day

I'll be sending you the A&E bill i just fell over reading this

The master (and you know it was hard for me to give you that credit :P) of easy running is going to be doing intervals EVERY day :eek::eek::eek:

Seriously though, especially for these crazy times that we are living in, anything that gets us excited about lacing up is a good thing, a great thing even, so why not try something completely new!

Best of luck with it S - I for one am excited to follow you and learn more about it.

ThebitterLemon · 16-02-2021 01:11PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Does anyone get a burning smell? It is probably the cogs that have been turning on overdrive in my head over the past week. Three things running related happened this week which made me question what I am doing and more importantly, why?

Firstly, I decided to get a physio appointment to address the issue around the hip area which plagued me 18 months ago. I had cleared it up then and ran through the first half of 2020 without any issues. However from the very first one mile run I did after getting rid of the worst of the PF it has been an ever present niggle. In truth it is probably this which has held me back from introducing some pace work to date. Anyway an appointment was made, an issue identified and a treatment plan prescribed. I have to drop to 5 days a week of running now but I have been warned that a drop to less may be required. To date I have been concerned about delaying a return to some sort of fitness. Given the circumstances at present it is undoubtedly best to get it sorted now...one step back and all that!

Secondly, I read an excellent post by Cartman on the Coronavirus and Running thread. Simply put he listed in a very heartfelt way what he misses running related at the moment. It made me question both what I miss and what I want. Like everybody else I want races back but not because they offer the best chance of a PB, not in order that I collect race T-shirts, not to park in a carpark to go to a socially distanced start line before running and jumping back into the car. I want races back for the chats, the camaraderie, meeting friends and of course the sandwiches! Bottom line is that I want to enjoy my training and my racing when it returns. I want to run Amsterdam Marathon not for a PB but that I can meet a friend and his great family. I want races where I can meet up with the other 2017 novices. I simply am not motivated by T.T’s. Enjoyment is everything.

Thirdly, a book landed in my letterbox. As a few of you know I have taken a bit of an interest in training and coaching methods. It hasn’t been anything deep, more a curiosity around the origins of and influences behind many of the current commercial training plans which we can all access online. Coaches like Canova, Lydiard, Cerutty, Igloi and Gerschler have influenced so many modern coaches and most of us are following training plans inspired by their philosophies. Perhaps because of the 5k restriction and my injury I have been finding predominantly steady state running to be mind numbingly boring. I have been looking for an alternative to the 2 sessions and long run plans. I wanted something interesting to try. Lo and behold this short book is it. It is written by a former athlete who was trained by Herman Verheul, a Dutch coach. It may not work at all, it may not work in the long term but for the sake of enjoyment I’m giving it a bash. It is different, very different and now is the perfect time to experiment.

“Does anyone get a burning smell?”

Is that the friction from leg hair on tights...:)

TbL

Huzzah! · 16-02-2021 02:06PM

Will you be changing your handle to "Zatopek"?

skyblue46 · 16-02-2021 02:32PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Is it geared towards any particular race distance(s)?

200s and 400s are fun. Sounds promising!

There are plans from 800 up to marathon. I haven't looked at much beyond the 5/10k stuff so far.

ariana` wrote: »

I'll be sending you the A&E bill i just fell over reading this The master (and you know it was hard for me to give you that credit :P) of easy running is going to be doing intervals EVERY day :eek::eek::eek:

Seriously though, especially for these crazy times that we are living in, anything that gets us excited about lacing up is a good thing, a great thing even, so why not try something completely new!

Best of luck with it S - I for one am excited to follow you and learn more about it.

:pac::pac: Don't worry I'm doing even easier running between the intervals. The paces for the intervals are nowhere near the paces you might expect and the recoveries are extremely generous. You are right about the excitement though, it has put a pep in my step.

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

“Does anyone get a burning smell?”

Is that the friction from leg hair on tights...:)

TbL

Sadly it was too warm for tights today. Hopefully we get a change back to the cold weather so that I can try out my new camo pattern Asics tights

Huzzah! wrote: »

Will you be changing your handle to "Zatopek"?

Very good! That man did savage workouts. Mine take the EASY from the book title to the extreme.

skyblue46 · 16-02-2021 05:02PM

Friday 12th: 7.2 miles @ 8:24 incl w/u and c/d. So this was it.... Day 1 of a new plan, The Easy Interval Method. Today's workout was 10*400m. The main problem I face with starting this plan is knowing where my fitness is at in order to calculate training paces. I know it is poor but I'm just not sure how poor!

Based on previous breaks from running and HR on runs I decided that I am possibly in 22 min 5k shape or 46 mins for a 10k. This gave me a range of 1:44-1:51 for the 400's. Recovery is 400m with a 10/15 second walk at the beginning and end of each recovery which sandwiches a gentle jog. Splits were 1:44,48,47,48,47,47,47,47,47 and 45. Very enjoyable cruising. I did my physio stretches and strengthening afterwards.

Saturday 13th: Rest Day. Physio stuff done. I have to do it 4 days a week, twice on rest days and twice after runs.

Sunday 14th: 9 miles @ 8:58 inc w/u and c/d. 6*1k was on the menu. There are 2/3 of these on the plan most weeks for now. Splits were to be in the 4:50-5:09 range. To put this in perspective if I was starting Hanson's HM plan now I would need to do these in 4:24 even allowing for present fitness...this is where the 'easy' comes from. Recoveries were 800m with a 20 second walk at the beginning and end of a very easy jog. Paces were 4:56,54,52,54,55 and 55. I probably worked a little harder than intended on some sections into the strong breeze but it was nice and comfortable. Time flew by...the 9 miles just snuck up on me.

Monday 15th: Rest Day. Physio stuff done.

Tuesday 16th: 9.8 miles @ 9:01 incl w/u and c/d. 6*1k again. It ended up a bit longer than Sunday's run because I included a few strides that I chickened out of doing on the first day. The other change I made (for research purposes) was to do it by HR. The prescribed HR range is 92-95% of LT heart rate. This equates to approx 149-154 bpm for me. I took the advice to err towards the lower end and rolled along at 150bpm most of the time. Splits for the K's were 4:59, 5:03, 5:03, 4:58, 5:02 and 5:02 again. Really, really enjoyable first run in the Park since early January.

OOnegative · 16-02-2021 05:47PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

I want to run Amsterdam Marathon not for a PB but that I can meet a friend and his great family.

Yeah Connie has been asking for you a few times since alright........

skyblue46 · 16-02-2021 05:51PM

OOnegative wrote: »

Yeah Connie has been asking for you a few times since alright........

He's still alive and avoiding jail? :pac::pac:

skyblue46 · 17-02-2021 09:03PM

Wednesday 17th: 7 miles @ 8:45. Another easy interval not a session. A warm up including a few strides, 5*400 and 8*200. The suggested split for the 400s was 1:44-1:51 and they came in at 1:44, 1:46, 1:47, 1:46 and 1:47. The splits for the 200s were to be 46-51 secs and came in at 47, 48, 48, 47, 49, 48, 50 and 47 secs. Revoveries were partially walked and the balance a gentle 10 min mile jog.

For anyone still reeling from the idea of a 'session' everyday I should point out that the 200s are at 10k pace and the 400s at HM pace, not your typical paces.

ariana` · 18-02-2021 08:54AM

skyblue46 wrote: »

For anyone still reeling from the idea of a 'session' everyday I should point out that the 200s are at 10k pace and the 400s at HM pace, not your typical paces.

It's really very interesting, it's seems quite foreign to what practically everyone else around these parts is doing in some shape or form. How long is the plan and have you thought about what you will do at the end - is a TT on the cards (despite your documented apathy)?

Bluesquare · 18-02-2021 09:06AM

ariana` wrote: »

It's really very interesting, it's seems quite foreign to what practically everyone else around these parts is doing in some shape or form. How long is the plan and have you thought about what you will do at the end - is a TT on the cards (despite your documented apathy)?

It’s definitely tweaked my interest - Best of luck - will be reading the posts keenly . I may have this wrong -but did you mention previously you had issues with your thyroid ? Do you think the plan may effect fatigue levels ?? Just the first thing that occurred to me - a need to be precious with recovery.

ReeReeG · 18-02-2021 09:34AM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Wednesday 17th: 7 miles @ 8:45. Another easy interval not a session. A warm up including a few strides, 5*400 and 8*200. The suggested split for the 400s was 1:44-1:51 and they came in at 1:44, 1:46, 1:47, 1:46 and 1:47. The splits for the 200s were to be 46-51 secs and came in at 47, 48, 48, 47, 49, 48, 50 and 47 secs. Revoveries were partially walked and the balance a gentle 10 min mile jog.

For anyone still reeling from the idea of a 'session' everyday I should point out that the 200s are at 10k pace and the 400s at HM pace, not your typical paces.

That's a fairly broad window for the 200s; 46 secs is what 6.10/6.15 pace? while 51 seconds is closer to 7 mins.. and probably closer to the 10k pace you mention?

Dubh Geannain · 18-02-2021 12:42PM

There's a miler I follow on YouTube. His dad is a former Olympian and devised a plan for him over the summer break from college one year (9 weeks I think). It involved something like 3 sessions per week (a lot of which were hill repeats) as he also built up his mileage slowly each week. So not quite a session every day. But it seemed like quite was an interesting approach.

Anyway, best of luck with it.

mikey68 · 18-02-2021 04:57PM

A very long-time lurker on this forum. Have shamefully never posted despite spending quite a bit of time here. Had to chip in though when I saw someone else going Dutch!

I too have jumped in to the Klaas Lok experiment and have been currently easing myself into it for the last few weeks as he recommends before going full Lok ahead.

Really looking forward to seeing how you get on with it skyblue ... it's a bit of a leap in the dark for me too, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

skyblue46 · 18-02-2021 08:06PM

ariana` wrote: »

It's really very interesting, it's seems quite foreign to what practically everyone else around these parts is doing in some shape or form. How long is the plan and have you thought about what you will do at the end - is a TT on the cards (despite your documented apathy)?

You know me E, not one to be part of the herd! :pac: Probably why I have my footwear issue, have never tried a plan from Daniels, P+D etc and have no interest in a US marathon

Its not a plan as such, more a way of training. So if I find improvement is forthcoming and I continue to enjoy it then I'll stick with it. A TT?...highly unlikely. He includes race simulation sessions to replace races but they are not TTs.

Bluesquare wrote: »

It’s definitely tweaked my interest - Best of luck - will be reading the posts keenly . I may have this wrong -but did you mention previously you had issues with your thyroid ? Do you think the plan may effect fatigue levels ?? Just the first thing that occurred to me - a need to be precious with recovery.

Yes I have an underactive thyroid. But fatigue has never really been an issue. I found out I had the thyroid issue after an annual blood screening not as a result of being symptomatic. I know its early days and that apps like Strava which have Relative Effort scores may use algorithms which are unreliable but to date they are showing the training to be less stressful. The recoveries and easy running are very easy.

ReeReeG wrote: »

That's a fairly broad window for the 200s; 46 secs is what 6.10/6.15 pace? while 51 seconds is closer to 7 mins.. and probably closer to the 10k pace you mention?

Hey V. I hope the hamstring behaves soon. Yes it it a very broad range and I tried to veer towards the slower end even if I didn't succeed fully. There is a wide range because he heavily emphasises form and running within oneself. He says its better to be 10 seconds too slow than one second too fast. It reminds me in some ways of Swashbucklers sessions if taken to the extreme...always in control.

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

There's a miler I follow on YouTube. His dad is a former Olympian and devised a plan for him over the summer break from college one year (9 weeks I think). It involved something like 3 sessions per week (a lot of which were hill repeats) as he also built up his mileage slowly each week. So not quite a session every day. But it seemed like quite was an interesting approach.

Anyway, best of luck with it.

Thanks a million. This isn't 'sessions' as we generally know them. Its about running as much as possible in fast 'form' without the stress.

mikey68 wrote: »

A very long-time lurker on this forum. Have shamefully never posted despite spending quite a bit of time here. Had to chip in though when I saw someone else going Dutch!

I too have jumped in to the Klaas Lok experiment and have been currently easing myself into it for the last few weeks as he recommends before going full Lok ahead.

Really looking forward to seeing how you get on with it skyblue ... it's a bit of a leap in the dark for me too, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Ah you'll have to start logging! I saw the part about easing into it if not familiar with sessions alright but I think I'm ready for it as long as I don't overdo paces.

skyblue46 · 18-02-2021 09:23PM

Thursday 18th: 7.43 miles @ 8:50. Today's run description was very straightforward...12k moderate endurance run which was described as being in or around 85% of LT HR. To give a tiny amount of wriggle room I set the watch to alarm either side of a 135-142 range. Every 7 mins i was to do a 60 sec surge at approx MP. It all sounded so simple but on the undulating roads of D9 and D11 with a strong headwind/tailwind/crosswind it was a huge challenge to keep within range and paces were everywhere from sprinting to stopped :pac: I loved it though...nothing better than watching a watch for an hour

Edit to mention that my Gliderides passed the 1,000km mark today and they are far from being retired. Its an interesting year for shoes. Glideride V2 will be bought, possibly the Evoride 2 as well. The Atreyu carbon plated shoe is paid for and awaiting an April delivery. I'm expecting the Asics high stack racer to be a thing of both beauty and quality while I'm also intrigued by the Puma Deviate Nitro...

skyblue46 · 21-02-2021 09:10PM

Friday 19th: Rest Day

Saturday 20th: 8.5 miles @ 9:03. Another of the 1k intervals at 92% of LT HR. As will be done whenever I do this there is a 20 second walk at the beginning and end of each recovery. Splits were 4:58, 5:07, 4:58, 5:01 and 4:58. Very windy out which contributes to some of the ups and downs. I did a portion of this on the grounds of DCU and it was nice to see the opening of the mass vaccination centre in the Helix. There were so many over 85s many with family members transporting them. There was a real buzz about the place...green shoots. I have to admit to feeling a hint of sadness too thinking that for many of them this was possibly their first trip outside in a long time. It puts a few races into perspective.

Sunday 21st: 10.4 miles @ 8:46. Over to the PP for this. Similar to yesterday but 6 repeats rather than 5. Splits were 4:43, 4:50, 4:50, 4:46, 4:46 and 4:39. HR was a beat or two lower than yesterday so the faster paces can be put down to less wind and a more favourable route. Finished off with four 30 sec surges. Very busy in the Park as usual.

I have another appointment with the physio tomorrow about the hip flexor. I'm expecting to be asked to drop another day or two but we'll see what happens. The niggle is no worse but I want to get rid of it.

skyblue46 · 28-02-2021 08:29PM

Monday 22nd: Rest Day. This one was planned. The physio had to cancel due to illness so that appointment will need to be rearranged.

Tuesday 23rd: 8.5 miles @ 8.44. This one was 4*2k intervals off 800m at 90% LT HR. I know that paces mean nothing to anybody as the intervals are not of a format that we’re familiar with. However I do want to keep a record of them to judge improvements….or not. Splits were 9:50, 9:56, 9:39 and 9:57.

Wednesday 24th: Unplanned rest day. Playing it safe more than anything else.

Thursday 25th: 6.5 miles @ 8.39. A combination of intervals, 5*400 and 8*200 all off the usual equal recoveries including walking. 400S were done in 1:45, 1:44, 1:44, 1:42 and 1:45. 200s in 48, 47, 47, 48, 46, 47, 47 and 47 seconds.

Friday 26th: 9.5 miles @ 8:41. Another of the staple runs of this phase of the plan, 6*1k off 800 @ 92% LT HR. This was an early morning run and I think that the difficulties in elevating HR at that time of day led to some faster reps than I would have expected for the HR. Splits were 4:47, 4:43, 4:47, 4:21, 4:30 and 4:30. I finished off around the grounds of DCU with a few fast 30sec bursts.

Saturday 27th: 9.5 miles @ 8:44. Finally back to the Park after a week of local roads. Cracking morning it was too. Same as the day before but without the surges. Splits were 4:43, 4:44, 4:43, 4:52, 4:52 and 4:49.

Sunday 28th: 12 miles @ 8:38. The plan was to do 10*7mins @ 85% LTHR (or slightly faster than easy) followed by 1 minute at HM/M pace. That, with a little cooldown would have me doing 10 miles. However, after about 4 miles I decided I wasn’t going to waste one of those rare beautiful mornings we get. Despite the gorgeous low fog hovering over the Park I felt like heading down the deserted quays for a change. I continued as far as O Connell Bridge before turning onto our main thoroughfare, past the Rotunda, Smithfield and Stoneybatter. My last minute at HM pace was up Oxmantown Road, a road of terraced houses the oldest of which date back to the 1890s. They are only 700sq feet or thereabouts yet were fetching close on half a million during the property boom. Not bad for houses which initially housed many from the tenements of the city. After that it was a nice jog back to the park to complete my slightly over distance run.

It was such a lovely day I couldn’t bring myself to head straight home. I walked down to Chapelizod for a coffee and then up Knockmaroon Hill and down past the Anglers Rest to the Strawberry Beds. There was just something about it that made it a special morning. Two questions came to mind on my walk...firstly, what possessed RnR to bring a HM up Knockmaroon Hill?….secondly, why is the coffee trailer converted from a horsebox at the Anglers Rest called The Capall Box? Surely you go full Irish

So that was the week that was...it has ended with a sign of brighter days ahead and very fresh legs. 46 miles over 5 days.

Murph_D · 28-02-2021 09:42PM

Nice work. I know you're not necessarily working off pace but those look pretty decent to me for the workouts that were in it. Not easy to run 1k repeats entirely by HR though, I'd imagine. Assume you aim at some sort of estimated pace and allow HR to drift up over the course of it? Or do you know these rates well enough already to dial into it?

Refresh my memory on the 400s/200s - how are those paces determined?

Agree that this Sunday morning had a great feel to it.

skyblue46 · 28-02-2021 10:55PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Nice work. I know you're not necessarily working off pace but those look pretty decent to me for the workouts that were in it. Not easy to run 1k repeats entirely by HR though, I'd imagine. Assume you aim at some sort of estimated pace and allow HR to drift up over the course of it? Or do you know these rates well enough already to dial into it?

Refresh my memory on the 400s/200s - how are those paces determined?

Agree that this Sunday morning had a great feel to it.

Not really dialling the paces in properly yet. With the very easy/walking recoveries I am hitting the 1k intervals with a very low HR and probably picking it up a bit much to get it into the zone before then struggling a bit to keep it there...It is getting better though.

The 200s/400s are based on paces off a recent 10k or in my case a guesstimate of what I might be able to do presently. Ranges are quite broad in that a lot of the onus is put on the runner to decide how hard to do them. It should never be strained though...

eyrie · 01-03-2021 11:18AM

skyblue46 wrote: »

This was an early morning run and I think that the difficulties in elevating HR at that time of day led to some faster reps than I would have expected for the HR.

Interesting - do you find it harder to get your HR up early in the morning? I've always found the exact opposite, i.e. it's higher first thing no matter what I do, so tougher to do sessions in the early morning. If you have some magic secret I want it for when I get back to doing sessions!

Sounds like a lovely run on Sunday.

skyblue46 · 01-03-2021 11:54AM

eyrie wrote: »

Interesting - do you find it harder to get your HR up early in the morning? I've always found the exact opposite, i.e. it's higher first thing no matter what I do, so tougher to do sessions in the early morning. If you have some magic secret I want it for when I get back to doing sessions!
Sounds like a lovely run on Sunday.

Hmm...well there are many contributory factors to HR. It is normally lower in cool temperatures and higher in hotter temperatures so that would explain some of it. Consuming alcohol the night before, stress, illness and caffeine consumption are some of the other factors. I had a couple of early morning runs there where I thought I had suddenly taken a huge leap in fitness. Later runs in warmer conditions at the weekend made me realise I'm still as unfit as I was :pac:

Once in a Lifetime....for now

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