The way forward for LC2021

Smacruairi · 14-02-2021 03:39PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Yes. Why do you ask?

Just wondering. Does your child want exams or make up grades? If the grades they get aren't what they want, would they be happy to waste a year waiting to do the actual exam like what happened last year? You don't have to answer, genuine question.

PoolDude · 14-02-2021 03:44PM

Wombatman wrote: »

June exams were referenced by the TUI representative on the radio yesterday. Unlike last year, the students who do the exams should be able to enter college in 2021, and not have to postpone for a year. Exams will have to be around June in order to mark and review, so that points are ready for CAO.

Exams starting June 9th specifically was referred to by the TUI. So normal exam timetable - that may mean PG results before start of June. To do that and account for the slow processed described by others you’d imagine teachers inputs needed by end of the Easter holiday or May bank holiday latest. Many students would be focused on class and how they are being assessed till the deadline for PG submissions and probably continue studying for some or all written papers until they know their PG in June during the period from Easter/May to the exams.

But who knows

shesty · 14-02-2021 03:50PM

trihead wrote: »

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

Jesus.
They all need to stop talking.Just shut up, let one person do the talking and take social media and the microphones away from the rest of them.Do they realise it isn't just LC students waiting, there is a huge cohort of parents out here waiting with fingers crossed for some sort of date of return clarification to be announced on Tuesday??Since that is what they have been saying since Thursday some time.....

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 03:57PM

Rosita wrote: »

Heard Brian Mooney on the radio today (incidentally he seems convinced that teachers have loads of data for Predicted Grades - must be one of those teachers who puts great store in the end-of-chapter exam, otherwise not sure where he's getting that from) and that's what he seemed to imply.

But given the time it took between starting the process last year (albeit the basic processes are in place at least) and results being available it'll be fair going to have results in time for students to make a properly informed decision about sitting an exam while trying to decide if they should or shouldn't prepare for an exam in April/May.

He's a retired guidance counselor who works for standard life, don't mind him would be my advice, he hasn't a breeze

Bobtheman · 14-02-2021 04:07PM

I know Brian well. He retired a few years back so has no clue what's going on in any school. Didn't teach a mainstream subject either for years. A nice man but on this occasion speaking through his hxxx

Icsics · 14-02-2021 04:11PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

I know Brian well. He retired a few years back so has no clue what's going on in any school. Didn't teach a mainstream subject either for years. A nice man but on this occasion speaking through his hxxx

Yes, was saying all sorts of mad stuff in that interview.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 04:14PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just wondering. Does your child want exams or make up grades? If the grades they get aren't what they want, would they be happy to waste a year waiting to do the actual exam like what happened last year? You don't have to answer, genuine question.

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from? Did you and you collogues just make up grades last year? I would hope teachers to do their utmost with whatever data is available to them.

If you were a leaving cert student which would you want, exams, PGs or a choices of picking and choosing between both to your best advantage. I would have thought the answer to be obvious.

As I said, I don't expect the students who sit exams this year will have to postpone college entry for as year, as the exams are planned for June not November.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 04:22PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

It is clear to me that this is what the department his hoping for. Attractive PGs for all before the exams in the hope that a minority will sign up for exams, hence reducing the cost and workload involved in organising the, albeit modified, exams.

From what I'm reading here, the department and the SEC are in no position, at this point, to run a full LC in June. I guess because of this, they are hoping the exams will take a back seat to PGs and this is what the ASTI picked up on last week, which lead them to walk away from the discussions.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 04:26PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from? Did you and you collogues just make up grades last year? I would hope teachers to do their utmost with whatever data is available to them.

But in truth it's still a made up grade isn't it? If it's not the result of an actual exam it's by definition a made up grade.

Smacruairi · 14-02-2021 04:28PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from?
r.

Well the most obvious example is that we had 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer, 6th Yr Xmas, and then mock exams. That allowed for some element of "calculation" but didn't help me when one of my students moved schools, and another was in hospital for one set of exams and had a bereavement for another.

This time we have... 5th Yr Xmas... That's it. So yes, there's far more uncertainty this time around, particularly facing into 3 more months of teaching and testing. I'm sure students won't thank me if I don't heavily hint at what I'm to test them on in the future, and what happens if a student then absents themselves? Should I just not test anything at all now? It's a mess.

Also you are "predicting" that students won't lose another year... Parents made that same prediction for 3 months last year..

Best of luck to your child though,sincerely.

Bobtheman · 14-02-2021 04:47PM

No offence wombat. Why don't you ask your own kids teachers to walk you through the process. That's if you have kids because im not really sure of your agenda here. This ain't citizens information.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 05:07PM

Rosita wrote: »

But in truth it's still a made up grade isn't it? If it's not the result of an actual exam it's by definition a made up grade.

Surely the grade awarded a reflection of application, effort and understanding. How did you differentiate between a H1 and a H8 last year? I'm hoping you didn't just make it up.

If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

Smacruairi · 14-02-2021 05:11PM

Wombatman wrote: »

p.

If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

A, I answered that already, and B we don't actually what is the craic with grades this year, that's the whole problem.. We are staring at March which should be orals and practicals and don't have the foggiest.

Treppen · 14-02-2021 05:40PM

Wombatman wrote: »

It is clear to me that this is what the department his hoping for. Attractive PGs for all before the exams in the hope that a minority will sign up for exams, hence reducing the cost and workload involved in organising the, albeit modified, exams.

From what I'm reading here, the department and the SEC are in no position, at this point, to run a full LC in June. I guess because of this, they are hoping the exams will take a back seat to PGs and this is what the ASTI picked up on last week, which lead them to walk away from the discussions.

That's my understanding in a nutshell. The only way to keep students on track is have both PG + Modified Exams.
Students looking for choice of either is nuts and incongruent.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 05:42PM

Wombatman wrote: »

1) Surely the grade awarded a reflection of application, effort and understanding.

2) How did you differentiate between a H1 and a H8 last year? I'm hoping you didn't just make it up.

3) If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

1) Yes, but exams normally judge that. That's my point - anything other than an actual exam is still made up.

2) Easy, I had 4 sets of credible relevant extended-length exam results. They also plugged in their Junior Cert grade later. (It was still of course a made up grade as distinct from a sat exam grade, which was reflected generally, it seems, in grade inflation).

3) Because of a reluctance on the part of the government to insist on regular written LC exams.

Mrsmum · 14-02-2021 05:59PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well the most obvious example is that we had 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer, 6th Yr Xmas, and then mock exams. That allowed for some element of "calculation" but didn't help me when one of my students moved schools, and another was in hospital for one set of exams and had a bereavement for another.

This time we have... 5th Yr Xmas... That's it. So yes, there's far more uncertainty this time around, particularly facing into 3 more months of teaching and testing. I'm sure students won't thank me if I don't heavily hint at what I'm to test them on in the future, and what happens if a student then absents themselves? Should I just not test anything at all now? It's a mess.

Also you are "predicting" that students won't lose another year... Parents made that same prediction for 3 months last year..

Best of luck to your child though,sincerely.

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

amacca · 14-02-2021 06:23PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

I think you have an idea of what bands a student might fit into but it can be hard to say some students are better than other within those bands

Put yourself in the position of having to decide even after two years contact time....on some years you might know who the dead cert lock for a H1 is, you might also know who the dead cert H8 is....but there are many others in the middle that you can't truly predict/calculate wtf might happen....could be C or B or even who gets the B1 and the B2 .....there's just no way to be sure except an exam

No matter how well you know them some surprise, some don't listen to a word you day over two years doing as little as possible instead and then do average/to middling as they actually make an effort in the last 5/6 weeks.....

Some work away consistently but they dont really have the ability, it's more about highlighting everything in sight but understanding is at a low enough level but they get lucky every once in a while and that one thing they could stretch to pops up

Teachers do feel like they are plucking some grades out of thin air because they are for some (possibly all students) they are giving a best guess thsts all it is and that goes against the grain.....the exam is the fat lady singing and the real judge

Even when I gave parent teacher meetings I did know how the student was applying themselves, I could see the gaps in their understanding, the strengths, weaknesses the lack of confidence and the overconfidence and I could speak with accuracy on that

But I couldn't be sure what grade most of them (and in fact really all if them were going to get) ......just like you cant be sure usain bolt was going to take home that gold until he ran the race but you could put down more money on him given his natural ability/previous form etc

But what about gatlin or the less talented runners from other countries, could you place them with accuracy withoit running the race...would you put money on your rankings 1 to 8? Even if you had all the stats?

There's something analogous in PG and even at that I feel I'm not making my point very well

Mrsmum · 14-02-2021 06:27PM

amacca wrote: »

I think you have an idea of what bands a student might fit into but it can be hard to say some students are better than other within those bands

Put yourself in the position of having to decide even after two years contact time....on some years you might know who the dead cert lock for a H1 is, you might also know who the dead cert H8 is....but there are many others in the middle that you can't truly predict/calculate wtf might happen....could be C or B or even who gets the B1 and the B2 .....there's just no way to be sure except an exam

No matter how well you know them some surprise, some don't listen to a word you day over two years doing as little as possible instead and then do average/to middling as they actually make an effort in the last 5/6 weeks.....

Some work away consistently but they dont really have the ability, it's more about highlighting everything in sight but understanding is at a low enough level but they get lucky every once in a while and that one thing they could stretch to pops up

Teachers do feel like they are plucking some grades out of thin air because they are for some (possibly all students) they are giving a best guess thsts all it is and that goes against the grain.....the exam is the fat lady singing and the real judge

Even when I gave parent teacher meetings I did know how the student was applying themselves, I could see the gaps in their understanding, the strengths, weaknesses the lack of confidence and the overconfidence and I could speak with accuracy on that

But I couldn't be sure what grade most of them (and in fact really all if them were going to get) ......just like you cant be sure usain bolt was going to take home that gold until he ran the race but you could put down more money on him given his natural ability/previous form etc

But what about gatlin or the less talented runners from other countries, could you place them with accuracy withoit running the race...would you put money on your rankings 1 to 8? Even if you had all the stats?

There's something analogous in PG and even at that I feel I'm not making my point very well

No, thank you. That's a very good explanation for me and perhaps other parents to take on board.

Smacruairi · 14-02-2021 06:29PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

To briefly put it, if I write h2 on a midterm report, that could be from a class test, just general homework calibre, engagement in clasd etc. It is not "they will get this in the lc", more "keep up this level of work and everything should come together".

That's why there's always a drop in grades come mocks - doing the course altogether, and then with other subjects, thsts a whole diff ball game, abs very very hard to predict how kids react. Some panic and seize up, some just are good at exams. That's why the Exam is key in establishing that calculation.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 06:33PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork .

Nobody mentioned wild guesswork, or that teachers don't know students' ability. What calculated grades does is ask a teacher to pinpoint specifically a student's mark out of 100. Most conversations I've had with parents relates to how they are doing, how they can improve. At no stage has a parent asked me what actual mark they would get in the LC, nor would they have ever expected I could answer that. Wild guesswork, if you have plenty of experience of the student and a fair bit of data, it is not. But it is still guesswork. Some students can exceed expectations in an exam, others can be exposed.

Not sure why it's such a difficult proposition. Most people would have predicted, say, England to beat Italy in Rugby yesterday because they know the relative abilities of the teams based on previous form. Few would have predicted the exact score of the match correctly. That's in essence what teachers are being asked to do.

There are many other moving parts which won't even occur to people outside teaching. I will probably be giving calculated grades to students who might not even sit that level if they had to go to a June exam. Likewise many HL Maths students might not have survived the post-Mocks reality dose but now they'll hang in there. These are not least of the reasons CGs are very attractive to many students.

Mrsmum · 14-02-2021 06:48PM

@ smacruairi and @ Rosita, thank you for your explanations. I think, in a way, you know what you know so well that you (teachers in general) do not understand that other people may not know what is obvious to you. This does not serve teachers well in the media and in the public outlook imo.

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 06:56PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

@ smacruairi and @ Rosita, thank you for your explanations. I think, in a way, you know what you know so well that you (teachers in general) do not understand that other people may not know what is obvious to you. This does not serve teachers well in the media and in the public outlook imo.

This is a very true. I think people assume assessment in schools is a simply writing a grade on the front of a paper, there is so much more nuance to it than that. The media seem hellbent on not having a single, practicing teacher whose been through the process have any voice though. I'm not sure why

noplacehere · 14-02-2021 07:08PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This is a very true. I think people assume assessment in schools is a simply writing a grade on the front of a paper, there is so much more nuance to it than that. The media seem hellbent on not having a single, practicing teacher whose been through the process have any voice though. I'm not sure why

I suspect it’s because none of us want to put themselves out there to be attacked. I was actually going to do an interview for a journalist about three weeks ago and I pulled out. I was too concerned about the fall out. Most of the teachers I know have their heads down ignoring the media and politicians attacks trying to do the best for their students in a less than ideal situation

Rosita · 14-02-2021 08:05PM

Another interesting addendum to this year's scenario is that last year when CGs were happening we had to cut all contact with students involved. This year it looks as if we'll be expected to have them in front of us day in day out during the same process!

Treppen · 14-02-2021 08:09PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

Giving a rough band is a lot easier than giving an exact % which is what was asked last time. Even then you'll have borderline students who could get H1 or H2 on the day. Not every student exists exactly in the middle of each grade band. Once the Mocks are in you've a better idea. But still won't know for certain what they'd get in the LC... although you kind of know who the definite 100%ers are if you are lucky to get them.

So ya I think I could confidently predict a grade band for about 20% of students . The rest, I wouldn't like to , unless they had mocks and filled all their exam papers.
Class tests before Christmas were important but definitely not a LC predictor... I used them more as a teaching tool.

Treppen · 14-02-2021 08:15PM

Rosita wrote: »

Another interesting addendum to this year's scenario is that last year when CGs were happening we had to cut all contact with students involved. This year it looks as if we'll be expected to have them in front of us day in day out during the same process!

Maybe they're hoping to draw out the talks for another 2 months to avoid that. :pac:
Can you imagine every single assignment when we come back in a week...
"Will this be counting for predicted grades sir?"
"Can I get my grinds teacher to talk to you about why you marked me down in this question".
" Ya I was sick yesterday, can I do the same test tomorrow/at home".
" The other class got an easier assignment Miss".
"My mother wants you to ring her about my grades Sir".

History Queen · 14-02-2021 08:17PM

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe they're hoping to draw out the talks for another 2 months to avoid that. :pac:
Can you imagine every single assignment when we come back in a week...
"Will this be counting for predicted grades sir?"
"Can I get my grinds teacher to talk to you about why you marked me down in this question".
" Ya I was sick yesterday, can I do the same test tomorrow/at home".
" The other class got an easier assignment Miss".
"My mother wants you to ring her about my grades Sir".

On one hand I'm laughing but on the other....Christ!

Treppen · 14-02-2021 08:21PM

History Queen wrote: »

On one hand I'm laughing but on the other....Christ!

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

History Queen · 14-02-2021 08:26PM

Treppen wrote: »

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

Ok that one did make me laugh! :pac:

amacca · 14-02-2021 08:32PM

Treppen wrote: »

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

It'll be odd not to be ignored, disrespected, ridiculed and put under pressure just trying to explain something to some students so they can get something out of it won't it?

What am I saying, that cohort either won't show up or will be worse than ever

The way forward for LC2021

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